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gotta disagree liam. the dread inflicted 5 unsaved wounds. if that wipes the unit, then whatever. if he didnt wipe it then fine. the only point those excess wounds "vanish" is when totalling the combat rez. he would get the extra 5 attacks, and so on. because the wording of the rule is "unsaved wounds caused" NOT "total of wounds removed" they are diffrent things. combat resoultion is an etirley diffrent mechanic then wound allocation or remove casulties. they are seperate and should not even be considered in the same argument.

Doesent matter if the model only has 1 wound.
Unsaved wounds are the trigger for talons to kick in.

If it causes 20 unsaved wounds on a single wound model, thats still 20 unsaved wounds.
they dont just vanish or somehow be capped by the wounds of a model.

How can you inflict 5 unsaved wounds on a model that has one wound? It's not possible to do that. You reduce the models W value by 1 for every failed armour save, or power weapon wound etc, using the number of wounds allocated to that model. There are no more wounds in the unit to be "unsaved" at the point when the last man is wiped out. If there are no models left, how can the remaining wounds be "unsaved"? There are no more wounds left to save!

Talons ignore saves to start with, so lets remove that factor from it to make it a little more simple.


You roll 5 dice, and wound 5 times (you roll all at once, not 1 at a time)

Dic dont vanish, you roll them, doesent matter if a model has been killed 10x over, the dice will roll.



And before anyone trys to cry im a BA player, im a nid and cron player mainly thanks, dislike red

ok...... so then how would you deal with wounds that dont ignore armor? how many armor saves do you make on a single marine who takes 10 bolter wounds? your still factoring in the combat rez rules.


those ONLY apply to combat rez. nothing else. your statment of a model can only loose his wounds value, really only applies to multi wound simaler models. so things like nobs that all have the same gear. 8 unsaved wounds on 5 such nobs would remove 4 nobs. (because each nob can only suffer 2 wounds) that rule is in place to prevent those same nobs from putting all 8 unsaved wounds on a single nob to spare the rest of the unit. because obviously the alternitive would break the game. if a model suffers 12 wounds and fails to save 7 of them, hes suffered 7 unsaved wounds. if he has 8 wounds on his profile hes ok. otherwise, dead dont matter if his profile says 1 or 3 or 6. 7 unsaved is 7 unsaved. the only time you ignore unsaved is in combat resoultion, when it tells you to disregard overkill.

and with that im going to shutup at the risk of repeating myself and getting redundant. if people wish to furthar debate my POV, then reread my earlier posts. and as a footnote, ill just add that the definition of insanity is attempting the same process multiple times and expecting diffrent results. sort of like beating ones head against a brick wall.....all your going to do is hurt your head.

liam0404 wrote:How can you inflict 5 unsaved wounds on a model that has one wound?

You can't. Luckily Blood Talons don't work on inflicted wounds.
You can roll to wound for 5 hits.
Each of those 5 wounds will cause an armour save.
Each of the 5 armour saves that is failed will cause an unsaved wound.
Each of those 5 unsaved wounds will cause a casualty, inflicting the wound.
Any of the unsaved wounds in excess of the wounds in the unit will have no effect.

He takes 10 wounds from a bolter, then rolls 10 saves.
5 go unsaved (im going with law of averages here, dont shoot me)

Therefor, he has suffered 5 unsaved wounds.
How many total wounds he has is only brought into it for combat res, which is where everyone is getting bloody mixed up.

You take 10 armour saves, and any saves that you fail become unsaved wounds.

However , if this is shooting at a unit of 1 (with one wound), this (assuming the marines fails all saves) does not mean that you inflicted 10 unsaved wounds on him. He failed 10 saves, but only has one wound to lose. Therefore you have failed 10 armour saves, but only caused ONE unsaved wound - there was only ONE wound in the unit to lose.

Liam, and whats the name for a wound you failed to save?

Unsaved - but you cant reduce a model to -9 wounds. Show me where in the BRB you can do that, and i'll gladly condede the argument.

DarthSpader wrote:the thing is, the wound is not unsaved prior to FNP.
consider the following examples on a marine with fnp.

attack hits
attack wounds
armor saved
no unsaved wound.

attack hits.
attack wounds.
armor save - fail
fnp pass
no unsaved wound

attack hits
attack wounds
armor save - fail
fnp fail -
unsaved wound.

Wrong.

attack hits
attack wounds
armor saved
no unsaved wound.

This is correct

attack hits.
attack wounds.
armor save - fail
fnp pass
no unsaved wound

This is wrong. According to the rules on page 75, you only take FNP once you have taken an unsaved wound. The model is at this point taken a wound. Then the player rolls a dice and if it is a 4,5,6 the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting.

So if the model only has one wound, he can only be effected by 1 unsaved wound as all others are lost. Therefore he only has to make one FNP roll.

So the correct order is


attack hits.
attack wounds.
armor save - fail
Unsaved wound (limited by number of wounds)
fnp pass
wound ignored.

Unsaved - but you cant reduce a model to -9 wounds. Show me where in the BRB you can do that, and i'll gladly condede the argument.

So your playing a game of "im right unless you can pull up a rule to prove me wrong"?
You might aswell leave then, if everyone took that stand point it would go nowhere (kinda like now)

However, when you roll the dice, you dont roll 1 at a time, you roll them all, which could generate 10 unsaved wounds.

Well show me a paragraph specifically in the book that says "if a model takes more wounds than is has, it counts as having taken that many unsaved wounds."

Go on, i'll wait.

liam0404 wrote:Well show me a paragraph specifically in the book that says "if a model takes more wounds than is has, it counts as having taken that many unsaved wounds."

Go on, i'll wait.

So you agree that a FNP model only has to make one FNP roll regardless of the number of saves it fails.

Liam, you have been asked to quote rules several times between both threads, each time you refuse, so why should other people have to quote rules to you?

Because the rules that I have quoted so far, have been completely relevant, yet ignored by several posters. So I don't really see the need to be honest. I've outlined my valid argument, and it's not been disproven.

jbunny almost right here:

attack hits.
attack wounds.
armor save - fail
Unsaved wound (limited by number of wounds)
fnp pass
wound ignored.

Darthspdaer's order would create a loop allowing infinite FnP saves to be taken. So you MUST have an unsaved wound before you can take FnP. However nothing limits that to the wounds characteristic of the model. Because you are still dealing with units and wound groups until you reach remove casualties and that occurs after FnP (because what would be the point of rolling FnP if you've already removed casualties).

So the order is:


attacks hit unit.
attacks wound unit.
Wounds allocated to wound groups
armor saves - failed by wound group
Unsaved wound suffered by wound group
fnp passed by wound group
wound ignored/casualties removed.

Now with some numbers in there say on a unit of 1 Fnp marine:

9 attacks hit unit
7 attacks wound unit
7 wounds allocated to the wound gourp of the single model in unit
4 Saves failed by wound group
2 FnP passes 2 FnP fails by wound group
1 casualty model removed.

But that is not what others are saying. Liam says that a model can only have a number of unsaved wounds equal to its wound characteristics. Which according to the FNP rules is before the FNP roll.

liam0404 wrote:Because the rules that I have quoted so far, have been completely relevant, yet ignored by several posters. So I don't really see the need to be honest. I've outlined my valid argument, and it's not been disproven.

Because you quote irrelevant rules from combat resolution.

liam0404 wrote:
Well show me a paragraph specifically in the book that says "if a model takes more wounds than is has, it counts as having taken that many unsaved wounds."

Show me one that says it can't.

Lliam I ask you one question and one question alone. First, suppose you have 5 wounds on a single target, and he now has to roll his saves. How many die do you roll? One at a time? or all 5?

Ok, a wound is unsaved if you fail an armour save. If you have FNP, you then have a chance to "negate" this unsaved wound.

Regardless of how many FNP saves you pass or fail, you STILL only take ONE unsaved wound, because thats all the wounds that you have to lose. You cannot lose more wounds than you have.

Ok, a wound is unsaved if you fail an armour save. If you have FNP, you then have a chance to "negate" this unsaved wound.

Regardless of how many FNP saves you pass or fail, you STILL only take ONE unsaved wound, because thats all the wounds that you have to lose. You cannot lose more wounds than you have.

Unsaved wounds are suffered by wound groups in units and are not limited to the number of wounds available until you get to casualty removal. Please show where in the rules that the number of unsaved wounds a wound group takes is limited to its wound characteristic at a point before casualty removal?

I ask again my question lliam.. how many die do you roll for the 5 wound scenario on one model?... how many?

From page 24 of the BRB

"Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."

So by your interpretation of the rule, you if you have more unsaved wounds than models /wounds available, you are violating this - if you have excess wounds, (according to your logic), you MUST remove one model for each wound.

Well go on then, start plucking models out of thin air.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mpangelu wrote:I ask again my question lliam.. how many die do you roll for the 5 wound scenario on one model?... how many?

I roll 5 at once, but please see my above post.

Thanks Liam, my FNP units just got more powerful as they onlyhave to make one FNP roll regardless of the number of failed armour saves as each failed armour save causes an unsaved wound. So the excess unsaved wounds are removed, and then FNP is taken.

Well if you misunderstood my response to your post I guess thats how you could interpret it. Go on, try reading it again, I know you will be able to understand it eventually. In the meantime, please see my above post to prove why you are wrong.

From page 24 of the BRB

"Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."

So by your interpretation of the rule, you if you have more unsaved wounds than models /wounds available, you are violating this - if you have excess wounds, (according to your logic), you MUST remove one model for each wound.

Well go on then, start plucking models out of thin air.

Not at all again you;ve highlighted that the counter argument is correct by highlighting unsaved wounds effect models only at casualty removal and only there are they limited to the wounds available. FnP kicks in just after armour saves but before casualty removal (otherwise it is pointless) so you have to take it for each unsaved wound the wound group has before resolving casualties.

Ok, you roll 5 dice, which killed the model? .. which one if all 5 failed.. which one killed him? since only one can do it right? What about some weapons that add to the attack profile of the next round of combat (see space wolves)..

the 1 model suffered x unsaved wounds. it has 1 wound on its profile. As soon as it suffers 1 wound it is removed. The excess wounds have still done their damage, however you still only lose the one model

This also comes into play with a unit shooting weapons. I have 9 marines with bolters 1 with plasma gun. I shoot the 9 bolters first, omg thats enough to kill the guy.. So does that mean I don't have to shoot the plasma gun and possibly get hot?.. no I have to roll his as well.. but why, he is gone.. it's because its all done at the same time.. not one at a time.

You haven't addressed the question you have quoted - if you remove a model for each unsaved wound (and have excess unsaved wounds), what do you do with them?

FYI firing it, for a detailed backgroud of this, you should read the unsaved wounds thread. This thread should not have been created.

liam0404 wrote:Well if you misunderstood my response to your post I guess thats how you could interpret it. Go on, try reading it again, I know you will be able to understand it eventually. In the meantime, please see my above post to prove why you are wrong.

Why are you attacking people because you are unable to prove your side of the argument. Please stop being harrassing and rude.

I'm not being rude to anyone. I'm merely pointing out the argument I made above.