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You haven't addressed the question you have quoted - if you remove a model for each unsaved wound (and have excess unsaved wounds), what do you do with them?

FYI firing it, for a detailed backgroud of this, you should read the unsaved wounds thread. This thread should not have been created.

Ok so ignoring FnP for a second what happens when a unit of 1 model fails 3 armour saves?

It has suffeerd 3 unsaved wounds at this point regardless of FnP so what do you do?

If there are no further models to remove you ignore the additional wounds. We're actually never told what to do with these extra wounds and we are certainly never told to ignore them before combat resolution (whic happens long after FnP as it happens even after casualty removal).

I still don't see how you're allowing FnP to happen both before and after casualty removal.

liam0404 wrote:Well if you misunderstood my response to your post I guess thats how you could interpret it. Go on, try reading it again, I know you will be able to understand it eventually. In the meantime, please see my above post to prove why you are wrong.

In the above apparently someone isn't able to understand the post..

and in the spawn of threads

liam0404 wrote:For crying out loud, you cheesemongers are really begining to get on my nerves now. Say I allocate A MILLION wounds to a single guy. He suffers the first unsaved wound - ok, now he's dead - how can he continue to lose wounds when he has ZERO wounds remaining? The answer is that he cannot.

Ok in response to Darth's highly constructive post - I can't contribute any more to this discussion than I have already. I feel I have outlined my view, and the likes of jbunny have pointed out their views. It's clearly not going to be something we ever agree on, so its probably time we moved on.

liam0404 wrote:You haven't addressed the question you have quoted - if you remove a model for each unsaved wound (and have excess unsaved wounds), what do you do with them?

They no longer matter after the model has been removed from the table, and only the wounds that were actually inflicted (including wounds caused by effects like Instant Death) on the model count towards combat resolution. The only exception would be Blood Talons, which you just keep count of unsaved wounds. It's really not that hard.

As I said, if jbunny wants to play the way he's describing, I'd let him, but only if he took all his casualties before taking his FNP saves. If he's going to use that logic, he'll have to use it to the letter.

Fafnir, his point is actually a exageration to make a point on his behalf. This goes into the consideration of BT dreadnaught in cc. If he is in combat with 2 units, does 5 attacks to a unit of 3 models hits and wounds with all 5 attacks and wipes the 3 man unit out he gets further attacks on the other unit.

The way most of us seem to agree on is that it would get 5 attacks. lliams and deathreaper and a few others say that since 3 models died he only gets 3 extra attacks.

That follows to the current line by their logic meaning ok, so I only have to take 1 FNP roll even if suffered 5 wounds...

There are at this point I believe 3-4 spawns from the original each over several pages..

FlingitNow wrote:

If there are no further models to remove you ignore the additional wounds. We're actually never told what to do with these extra wounds and we are certainly never told to ignore them before combat resolution (whic happens long after FnP as it happens even after casualty removal).

I still don't see how you're allowing FnP to happen both before and after casualty removal.

OK, so to link this to the other thread, the Blood Talon, Wounds are ignored but not until combat resolution. That is where extra unsaved wounds are ignored. This is well after the Blenderdread has finished making his attacks, so they are not ignored for determining how many extra attacks he gets to make.

liam0404 wrote:How can you inflict 5 unsaved wounds on a model that has one wound? It's not possible to do that. You reduce the models W value by 1 for every failed armour save, or power weapon wound etc, using the number of wounds allocated to that model. There are no more wounds in the unit to be "unsaved" at the point when the last man is wiped out. If there are no models left, how can the remaining wounds be "unsaved"? There are no more wounds left to save!

That's not exactly true. Nowhere in the rules does it say that if a model has 1 wound, you reduce that wound by 1, and then remove the model.

If you have a unit of single-wound models who are identical and take an armor save together, then you remove 1 model for each unsaved wound. Their individual wound characteristics are not reduced.

Only if you have multiple wound models do you actually subtract wounds.

forkbanger wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:in this situation Armor and FnP saves a moot because Bloodtalons allow neither.

It's not about Feel No Pain in and of itself, but a case of how a model can suffer more unsaved wounds than it has wounds on it's profile.

liam0404 wrote:
A dreadnought with Blood Talons is locked in combat with one unit of 3 models, and another unit of a size we dont care about for now. The argument that jbunny is incorrectly making, is that if this dreadnought scores 5 wounds on the unit of 3 (assume they are single wound for simplicity), this then entitles the dreadnought to make a further FIVE attacks on the ither unit.

My argument is that you have inflicted (and allocated) 5 wounds, but have only caused 3 unsaved wounds (which is the trigger for blood talons). Therefore you only should get a further three attacks on the other unit.

And to clarify the other side of this argument, the outcome would be-
Dreadnaught rolls 5 attacks and scores 5 hits.
Dreadnaught rolls 5 'to wounds' and scores 5 wounds.
Target unit of 3 single-wound models allocates 5 wounds.
Target unit of 3 single-wound models attempts armour saves- bad news, power weapons.
Target unit of 3 single-wound models suffers 5 unsaved wounds. ("For every model that fails it's save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound")
Target unit of 3 single-wound models removes it's casualties, inflicting 3 wounds.
Blood Talons check how many unsaved wounds were caused.
Blood Talons generate 5 more attacks.

Blood Talons don't work on inflicted wounds, they work on unsaved wounds, which are defined clearly and seperately from wounds inflicted.

To finish the whole blood talons argument! Those models are not removed yet as all the attacks happen at the same intiative. So you can keep attacking if you want to and really overkill a unit of 3 models haha

...His brothers found it odd when interned battle brother Robert, after having neatly disposed of his foes, began to wildly swing at the air.

...its an insane angry dreadnought obsessed with his own death.....

id be swinging widley into anything i could too.... air or not. probally would require a few moments to realise only a FRM exists instead of target..then its "rinse, lather, mutter to the machine spirit, yell at the nearby squirl, repeat."

But what if Robert's just a Furioso?

Think of how it would work if you rolled them one at a time. He suffers a single wound of the three. Roll fnp. Passed? Ok, he's good. But then he suffers the second wound. Roll fnp. Passed? Ok he's good. But now he suffers another one!

So let's just make it faster and roll all three, and if he fails one he loses that last wound.

if hes a furioso, then hes probally just REALLY mad...probally not insane. just pissed.....like, you kicked his dog pissed. btw....probally a good idea to get off its lawn.

liam0404 wrote:Well if you misunderstood my response to your post I guess thats how you could interpret it. Go on, try reading it again, I know you will be able to understand it eventually.

Or, instead of being snide about it, you could try to find another way to explain your point.

If you have nothing further to contribute, it's perfectly fine to just accept that some people don't agree, and move on.

Thank you insaniak

DeathReaper wrote:#1: real life scenarios do not have any bearing on the game rules.

Your made-up line that "a model cannot lose more wounds than it has to give" has no bearing on the game rules

FYI - the real life scenarios are an attempt to explain the situation in a way such that you might understand

FlingitNow wrote:

Ok, a wound is unsaved if you fail an armour save. If you have FNP, you then have a chance to "negate" this unsaved wound.
Regardless of how many FNP saves you pass or fail, you STILL only take ONE unsaved wound, because thats all the wounds that you have to lose. You cannot lose more wounds than you have.

Unsaved wounds are suffered by wound groups in units and are not limited to the number of wounds available until you get to casualty removal. Please show where in the rules that the number of unsaved wounds a wound group takes is limited to its wound characteristic at a point before casualty removal?

FlingitNow has it right here, and the reference is the box-out example on Pg25. The rules specifically state there are 3 hits that count as unsaved wounds in a situation where only 2 models can be removed.
It says "should remove 3 models... ...but as there are only 2... ... both are removed"
It doesn't say "because there are only 2 models in the group of identical models, the number of Unsaved Wounds is reduced to a nice neat number which is exactly equal to the number of wounds available to be lost by the target models in question"
It just doesn't say it, and any claim to the contrary is just plain false.

liam0404 wrote:From page 24 of the BRB
"Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."
So by your interpretation of the rule, you if you have more unsaved wounds than models /wounds available, you are violating this - if you have excess wounds, (according to your logic), you MUST remove one model for each wound.

The wording "Most models" means this is an example - a particularly generalised and simplified one at that. It is NOT the be-all and end-all of wound allocation. There are many more factors that may come into play in more complex situations.

liam0404 wrote:Well go on then, start plucking models out of thin air.

You should be careful about trying to act like too much of a smarty pants - especially when you're so obviously not all that smart. The page directly opposite to your pointless little quote above provides a very detailed and specific example which shows EXACTLY what to do when you have more unsaved wounds than models that can be removed by them. There is certainly no need to "pluck models out of thin air", no matter how many different threads you post it in.

karlosovic wrote:Your made-up line that "a model cannot lose more wounds than it has to give" has no bearing on the game rules

I did not make up that line, The English Language and math gives us that. We have to default to the English language because the rules do not give definition to most of the words in the rulebook, such as "Inside", and "All"

A model has three wounds, when you take away its last wound the model is removed from the table.

How many wounds can be caused to this model?

well lets do the math, O will be a wound, O will be a wound caused:

O O O three wound model, this model suffers an unsaved wound.

O O O It now has two wounds left and one wound taken, this model suffers another unsaved wound.

O O O It now has one wound left and two wounds taken, this model suffers another unsaved wound.

O O O It now has zero wounds left and three wounds taken, this model is removed as a casualty.

Q: so this model has zero wounds left, how many more can it suffer?
A: Zero

Lets say the same model is by himself and gets pelted with bolter fire, hit and wound rolls yeild a potential seven wounds to our model.

O O O three wound model, this model suffers seven unsaved wound.

O O O we apply the three wounds and remove the model, what happens to the four extra potential wounds? The rules do not tell us what to do with them, so we can not do anything with them.

I do not know how else to explain it so that you understand how it works.

Still ignoring the boxout on p25?
"He goes on to roll the four saves for the space marines with bolters in one go, failing two. He should remove three models (two unsaved wounds plus one wounds with no armour save from the meltagun), but as there are only two models in this group of identical models, he just removes them both."

Unsaved wounds are not equivalent to casaulties or wounds inflicted.
A model can have any number of unsaved wounds caused to it, but can only have a number of wounds inflicted on it equal to it's Wounds.
Unsaved wounds can (and frequently do) fail to take effect during casualty removal, but they remain unsaved wounds that were caused.

DeathReaper wrote:

karlosovic wrote:Your made-up line that "a model cannot lose more wounds than it has to give" has no bearing on the game rules

I did not make up that line, The English Language and math gives us that. We have to default to the English language because the rules do not give definition to most of the words in the rulebook, such as "Inside", and "All"

You're just being facetious. And are still wrong, for that matter. I said "Your made up line", not "your made up words" - that is to say you used words from the English language to construct a 'line' (i.e sentence) of your own invention (i.e. a line not referenced from elsewhere) instead of quoting something with factual basis in the Rules. Your so-called 'math' is also wrong. At no time in math does 5=3. Or for your new example: 7 wounds on a 3 wound model ...
7=/=3
If you knew anything about math, the only thing you could say in this case that is mathematically true is that 7 is equal to or greater than the minimum number of wounds required to kill the 3-wound model.
or 7 >= 3

DeathReaper wrote:Lets say the same model is by himself and gets pelted with bolter fire, hit and wound rolls yeild a potential seven wounds to our model.

O O O three wound model, this model suffers seven unsaved wound

Yes, correct. Finally.

forkbanger wrote:Still ignoring the boxout on p25?
"He goes on to roll the four saves for the space marines with bolters in one go, failing two. He should remove three models (two unsaved wounds plus one wounds with no armour save from the meltagun), but as there are only two models in this group of identical models, he just removes them both."

Unsaved wounds are not equivalent to casaulties or wounds inflicted.
A model can have any number of unsaved wounds caused to it, but can only have a number of wounds inflicted on it equal to it's Wounds.
Unsaved wounds can (and frequently do) fail to take effect during casualty removal, but they remain unsaved wounds that were caused.

Except unsaved wounds caused and unsaved wounds inflicted are interchangeable in the rules, as per P.39

Caused = Inflicted. you can not inflict more than 3 wounds to a 3 wound model, My math is not wrong, 5-3 =2

He can only suffer 3 wounds, and the rules do not say what action we should take with the two extra wounds, so we can not take any action and must forget about them. or the game breaks.

As for P.25 even the example shows you can only cause two wounds out of the three potential wounds, since only two wounds were caused. two wounds caused two moedls to be removed, what happens to the third one, How does a wound get caused that does not reduce the wound characteristic, or remove a model from the table.

Q: If a one wound model gets shot at, and fails its save, how many wounds were caused to this model?
A: one then he was removed as a casualty.
Q2 what happens to the excess wounds?
A: nothing as the book does not tell us to do anything with them.
I do not have the time to teach the english language to anyone, so I am done here.

DeathReaper wrote:you can not inflict more than 3 wounds to a 3 wound model

No where does it say this.

DeathReaper wrote:He can only suffer 3 wounds

No where does it say this.

You know, the ancient Greeks did not believe there was such a number as zero (0). They were wrong, too.
In fact Zero as a mathmatical number was only 'discovered' by the Romans.

DeathReaper wrote:As for P.25 even the example shows you can only cause two wounds out of the three potential wounds, since only two wounds were caused. two wounds caused two moedls to be removed, what happens to the third one, How does a wound get caused that does not reduce the wound characteristic, or remove a model from the table.

The example states there are a total of 3 unsaved wounds (2 from lesser guns and 1 from a meltagun) but only 2 models to be removed. It does NOT say there are only 2 unsaved wounds caused in total. It doesn't say anything about a need to reduce a wound characteristic in order for an Unsaved Wound to exist. The only rule that mentions creation of an Unsaved Wound says they are caused for each wound against which a successful saving throw is not made. No where does it mention or imply that an Unsaved Wound comes into existence when the Wound Characteristic is reduced or when a model is removed from play.
Lets be clear -
Unsaved Wounds occur when a Wound is not or cannot be saved.

DeathReaper wrote:Q: If a one wound model gets shot at, and fails its save, how many wounds were caused to this model?

I don't know.... how many successful To Wound rolls were not negated by successful Saving Throws?

DeathReaper wrote:Q2 what happens to the excess wounds?

In many cases - notihng. In other cases, they are covered by rules such as Feel No Pain and Blood Talons

DeathReaper wrote:Except unsaved wounds caused and unsaved wounds inflicted are interchangeable in the rules, as per P.39

"To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each side on their opponents. The side that caused the most is the winner."

"The side that caused the most is the winner."

The side that caused the most what? "Total up the number of unsaved wounds inflicted."

Their interchangable if you decide you're going to ignore what you caused the most of.

DeathReaper wrote:Caused = Inflicted. you can not inflict more than 3 wounds to a 3 wound model, My math is not wrong, 5-3 =2

Nobody has argued that more wounds can be inflicted on a model than it has on it's profile.

Can more wounds than a model has on it's profile be allocated to it for the purpose of rolling armour saves? Yes.
Will the model roll armour saves for each of those allocated wounds? Yes.
Can the model fail more armour saves than it has wounds on it's profile? Yes.
And each of those failed saves directly leads to an unsaved wound.
Each of those unsaved wounds leads to a Feel No Pain roll, or an additional blood talon attack.

DeathReaper wrote:He can only suffer 3 wounds, and the rules do not say what action we should take with the two extra wounds, so we can not take any action and must forget about them. or the game breaks.

Excess unsaved wounds are ignored when they are being inflicted as casualties- that does not mean that they were not unsaved wounds. Armour rolls were made and failed, and each failure causes an unsaved wound.

DeathReaper wrote:As for P.25 even the example shows you can only cause two wounds out of the three potential wounds, since only two wounds were caused. two wounds caused two moedls to be removed, what happens to the third one, How does a wound get caused that does not reduce the wound characteristic, or remove a model from the table.

p25 flat-out says that there are 3 unsaved wounds on a group of two models. It doesn't say that there are three unsaved wounds and two models, so one unsaved wound does not exist and has never existed. It says that there are3 unsaved wounds on a group of two models, and only two are inflicted.

DeathReaper wrote:Q: If a one wound model gets shot at, and fails its save, how many wounds were caused to this model?
A: one then he was removed as a casualty.

Your answer is incomplete. If a one wound model is shot at and fails it's save, one unsaved wound is caused (p24, "For every model that fails it's save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound."). It isn't necessarily removed as casualty, as other effects that work off unsaved wounds can then trigger. If suffering an unsaved wound instantly triggers casualty removal, Feel No Pain has no opportunity to take effect- 'suffer unsaved wounds' and 'remove models as casualties' are seperate steps.

DeathReaper wrote:Q2 what happens to the excess wounds?
A: nothing as the book does not tell us to do anything with them.

The rules make it clear that the excess unsaved wounds have no effect when it comes to applying them- they still exist, they were still caused, they are not discarded prior to their application as casualties.

DeathReaper wrote:I do not have the time to teach the english language to anyone, so I am done here.

You also lack the ability to do so.

Let me get this right people in this thread are asserting that

10 Marines with FnP get shot with 1000 shots,

They fail 500 armour saves

you fail 200 armour saves on the unit

You take 10 FnP rolls and pass 5 so 5 Marine survive.

That seems to be what people are saying. DeathReaper and liam0404 is that what you're saying?

That's what they are saying. It's the least advantageous way to go if there is a blood talon dread in the room, after all.
/sarcasm off

While simultaneously the most advantageous way for Feel No Pain.

mpangelu wrote:This goes into the consideration of BT dreadnaught in cc. If he is in combat with 2 units, does 5 attacks to a unit of 3 models hits and wounds with all 5 attacks and wipes the 3 man unit out he gets further attacks on the other unit.

The way most of us seem to agree on is that it would get 5 attacks. lliams and deathreaper and a few others say that since 3 models died he only gets 3 extra attacks.

That follows to the current line by their logic meaning ok, so I only have to take 1 FNP roll even if suffered 5 wounds...

There are at this point I believe 3-4 spawns from the original each over several pages..

Silly question here... Why would the dreadnought even get to attack the second unit. Wouldn't it make more sense that the extra attacks would be intended upon the unit the allowed/caused/enabled the generated attacks? And if that unit were all dead, it should end there.

It's not like the dreadnaught punches five orks, cheers and punches another five orks out of happiness. It scythes from left to right through as many orks as it can until its monumentum wears out.

Aengus wrote:Silly question here... Why would the dreadnought even get to attack the second unit. Wouldn't it make more sense that the extra attacks would be intended upon the unit the allowed/caused/enabled the generated attacks? And if that unit were all dead, it should end there.

The dreadnaught determined which units it was engaged with before starting working through the initiative steps of the assault. (Who Can Fight, p35)
Targets of attacks in a multiple combat are declared immediately before rolling them. (Multiple Combats, p41)
The blender-dread then declares its targets and rolls its attacks.
It causes unsaved wounds and generates more attacks.
The blender-dread then declares its targets for the new attacks and rolls its attacks.

It can't declare targets for all of its attacks all at once, because it doesn't know how many attacks it will be making.

forkbanger wrote:It can't declare targets for all of its attacks all at once, because it doesn't know how many attacks it will be making.

Very true, but as the original attacks having already been declared at the beginning of the round, I, for one, would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that all attacks generated from a specific unit would have to be directed at that particular unit. It just doesn't make sense to me that a dreadnought could in theory (in a multiple combat scenario) could utilize attacks generated from one particular combat against another unit. The rules in other areas don't seem to work that way (for instance that you must charge the same unit you shoot, etc..)

Perhaps this way of thinking is more RAI, instead of RAW since there doesn't seem to be any specifics dealing with this issue.

Apologies for further hijacking the FNP thread.

Aengus wrote:The rules in other areas don't seem to work that way (for instance that you must charge the same unit you shoot, etc..)

While you must declare your assault against a unit you shot, you are free to engage with other units and attack them- changing targets or splitting attacks between them is possible in other areas of the game.