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SPOILER

In the 1st heretic, a daemon guides Argal Tal, the Crimson King into destroying the gellar fields protecting the 20 incubating Primarchs.

That means to say, a person went back in time to disrupt the course of history thereby creating an alternative timeline.

END SPOILER

There could be 2 timelines in 40k then. The 1st, the grimdark we all know and the 2nd:

"In the far future of the 41st millienium, there is only joy and understanding!"

Thoughts?

You can actually create a proper spoiler thing...
And no... i don't think so...
He has to be around to go back in time and if the Gellar fields had never failed then he probably wouldn't have gone back in time and destroyed the Gellar fields.
I think that makes sense... Time travel is confusing...
He creates the events that allow him to travel back in BY travelling back in time in the first place... there we go that makes sense... i think...

Ah, but did he REALLY go back? Or was that a test to see if he really wanted the heresy?
I don't know, but time travel is ridiculously complicated when people go back - that makes paradoxes, which then mean everyone gets headaches.

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Ah, but did he REALLY go back? Or was that a test to see if he really wanted the heresy?
I don't know, but time travel is ridiculously complicated when people go back - that makes paradoxes, which then mean everyone gets headaches.

For the sake of argument lets assume he did indeed go back...
Time travel is best avoided unless you're a good writer and by good i mean proper standards of good not BL standards.

If you believe in that theory there is an infinite number of universe all created from every decision. Not to mention the warp has no respect for this 'time' the material universe observes all that is in the warp always has been (see birth of Slaanesh)

Theduke07 wrote:If you believe in that theory there is an infinite number of universe all created from every decision. Not to mention the warp has no respect for this 'time' the material universe observes all that is in the warp always has been (see birth of Slaanesh)

The trousers of time theory?
And Slannesh creating Slannesh is just the kind of perverse thing Slannesh would do...
I hate time travel...

purplefood wrote:
The trousers of time theory?

Terry Pratchett?

I hate time travel...

Seconded.

For the record, I don't believe that Argal Tal truly went back in time and did such a thing. The expenditure of power to perform such a feat would likely attract the attention of the Emperor, Malcador or some other. Seems like too much of a stretch for me (besides, if the Geller field is disabled, why can't the Chaos Gods destroy the Primarchs? Are there Geller fields within each pod or something?)

Maybe the Chaos Gods didn't actually want the Primarches destroyed, maybe they only wanted them case adrift to really screw with the Emperor's plans?

Valkyrie wrote:Maybe the Chaos Gods didn't actually want the Primarches destroyed, maybe they only wanted them case adrift to really screw with the Emperor's plans?

If I recall correctly, it specifically states that they didn't have the power to destroy them and so could only cast them adrift to land on various planets. The implication was that they really wanted to, but could due to the protection the Emperor was providing. If the Geller field was destroyed, I don't know where that protection was coming from.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

purplefood wrote:
The trousers of time theory?

Terry Pratchett?

I hate time travel...

Seconded.

For the record, I don't believe that Argal Tal truly went back in time and did such a thing. The expenditure of power to perform such a feat would likely attract the attention of the Emperor, Malcador or some other. Seems like too much of a stretch for me (besides, if the Geller field is disabled, why can't the Chaos Gods destroy the Primarchs? Are there Geller fields within each pod or something?)

Yes...
We got told the actual name for it was the Quantum Suicide Theory but Terry Pratchett manages to make everything so... humanly simple...

But, those events never would have happend if they didn't go back in time, which means that someone will always go back in time to cause the event. That event will then bring about the events that bring about the event which leads them to going back in time every time. And it's the warp, it's not supposed to make sense.

purplefood wrote:
Yes...
We got told the actual name for it was the Quantum Suicide Theory but Terry Pratchett manages to make evferything so... humanly simple...

Terry Pratchett is a genius.

Mr Nobody wrote:But, those events never would have happend if they didn't go back in time, which means that someone will always go back in time to cause the event. That event will then bring about the events that bring about the event which leads them to going back in time every time. And it's the warp, it's not supposed to make sense.

For time travel to exist then the whole of time must exist at any one point in time. As such, going back in time cannot cause something that could not have otherwise occurred. It must always have happened. To go back in time and start the sequence of events that leads to time travel in the first place is, in my admittedly very (obviously) limited opinion, impossible.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Yes...
We got told the actual name for it was the Quantum Suicide Theory but Terry Pratchett manages to make evferything so... humanly simple...

Terry Pratchett is a genius.

Mr Nobody wrote:But, those events never would have happend if they didn't go back in time, which means that someone will always go back in time to cause the event. That event will then bring about the events that bring about the event which leads them to going back in time every time. And it's the warp, it's not supposed to make sense.

For time travel to exist then the whole of time must exist at any one point in time. As such, going back in time cannot cause something that could not have otherwise occurred. It must always have happened. To go back in time and start the sequence of events that leads to time travel in the first place is, in my admittedly very (obviously) limited opinion, impossible.

That's Time machine logic, I'm thinking of doctor who and hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy logic. The logic there is that it's already happened, so you can do anything you want in the past because it's already happened. It never not happened in the first place. That's just me though.

Mr Nobody wrote:
That's Time machine logic, I'm thinking of doctor who and hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy logic. The logic there is that it's already happened, so you can do anything you want in the past because it's already happened. It never not happened in the first place. That's just me though.

Argal Tal cannot logically travel to the past, change stuff, and then have that changed stuff cause him to do what he just did. It started in the future, which hasn't happened yet, so it cannot affect the past in such a way as to cause itself to occur. Hence why it's called a paradox, because it can't actually happen (in my opinion, of course).

Sooo...

This makes Aquillon's statement: "Brother, you have been most blackly deceived." makes sense.

The scene Argal Tal was in probably occured but was taken out of context. The intention of the daemon was to get him to act against the Emperor (and hence confirms his damnation via possession).

I agree that a temporal paradox would screw the whole timeline over BUT this is not the 1st time time travel occurred.

In a previous short story, a sister of battle completed profance rituals so that she can travel back in time and warn her sisters of the impending horus heresy. In that case however, the SOBs who heard her chose to disbelieve and slew the time travelling agent as a heretic.

Time travel is the tool of the poor writer.

Unless, of course, it is to openly mock the concept ;-)

I wonder what kind of physics fluff 40k uses? I mean, do they have the multiple universe theory? Then, time travel would be irrelevant in their particular sub-universe.

...and since we really don't know if what is spoken of actually happened, well...

overkill76 wrote:
The scene Argal Tal was in probably occured but was taken out of context. The intention of the daemon was to get him to act against the Emperor (and hence confirms his damnation via possession).

I can see it being a metaphorical experience for Argal Tal to prove his betrayal of the Emperor and such, I just don't believe it happened.

I agree that a temporal paradox would screw the whole timeline over BUT this is not the 1st time time travel occurred.

It's the the first time that the Chaos Gods have done it as far as we know.

In a previous short story, a sister of battle completed profance rituals so that she can travel back in time and warn her sisters of the impending horus heresy. In that case however, the SOBs who heard her chose to disbelieve and slew the time travelling agent as a heretic.

The Sisters of Battle did not exist at the time of the Horus Heresy.

jmurph wrote:Time travel is the tool of the poor writer.

Seconded. I've never seen it done particularly well. Most of the time I just ignore the logic and such behind it and just enjoy the literature or film that comes out of it.

The Sisters he is talking about were around but they were the Sisters of Silence and very different from the current Sisters who are a full-scale militant wing.

As I understand it the Sisters of silence are a completely separate organisation to the sisters of battle, The SoS are all psychic nuls who cruise around the galaxy in the black ships rounding up rogue psykers. The SoB are a group of millitant nuns who formed from 1 sect during Vandires reign as Ecclesiarch.

On Argel Tal I agree that the events didnt actually happen for several reasons:

1) The Gellar field around the Emperors gene labs would have prevented Ingthel from transporting the Word Bearers into the labs in the first place.

2) The whole "events that have already happened cant be caused by things yet to happen" malarky.

3) I dont believe a mere Daemon Prince would be able to hide itself and several hundred Word Bearers under the nose of the most powerful psychic being in existance even for a minute.

4) Agree with the whole symbology of the event, getting Argel Tal to commit an act of treachery against the Emperor, believing it to be real without the actual risk of detection.

They are a different organisation.
But there were Sisters around before the Horus Heresy...
Admittedly they have nothing to do with each other... it's an annoying point but still a valid one.

What no-one has figured out though is how John Conner comes into all of this?

"I hates temporal mechanics!" *voice of O'Brian from Star Trek:TNG*

I was supscribign to the theory that Tal was actually having a vision and it was some force of chaos that actually did the damage.

Argal Tal and co. were seeing events through the eyes/memories of the entity that actually commited the act.

^^ Im with this theory mainly because of this:

3) I dont believe a mere Daemon Prince would be able to hide itself and several hundred Word Bearers under the nose of the most powerful psychic being in existance even for a minute.

It was more likely a fantasy/waking dream/false reality that the Daemon created to feed into the lies it was weaving to convice AT to turn.
Definetly, one of my favourite HH books to date however, anyone else?

For the record, I don't believe that Argal Tal truly went back in time and did such a thing. The expenditure of power to perform such a feat would likely attract the attention of the Emperor, Malcador or some other. Seems like too much of a stretch for me (besides, if the Geller field is disabled, why can't the Chaos Gods destroy the Primarchs? Are there Geller fields within each pod or something?)

I think it makes perfect sense, within the realm of good Time Travel Rules. An example of good Time Travel Rules being "12 Monkeys."

Argal Tal didn't go back and "change" history by destroying the Gellar Fields, because it had always been Argal Tal that destroyed the Gellar fields. He didn't create a paradox, because he cannot create a paradox.

I think that entire passage is pretty clear that this is what actually happened and it wasn't just a vision. Chaos needed some one material to effect the Gellar fields and due to the nature of the warp they defiantly had the ability to take someone back through time in order to do it.

40k has a lot of time travel in it due to the timeless nature of the Warp. This story is an example of when they used good Time travel logic, however they have used bad time travel logic as well. An example of GW using bad Time Travel rules, or what me and my friends refer to as "Time Cop" rules, is the Story of the Lost Waaagh from the current Ork Codex. In which a Warboss and his Waaagh travel back in time through the warp and arrive some place before he left it and he ends up killing himself. And that's just silly... just like "Time Cop"

NagothDaCleaver wrote:I think it makes perfect sense, within the realm of good Time Travel Rules. An example of good Time Travel Rules being "12 Monkeys."

Argal Tal didn't go back and "change" history by destroying the Gellar Fields, because it had always been Argal Tal that destroyed the Gellar fields. He didn't create a paradox, because he cannot create a paradox.

I think that entire passage is pretty clear that this is what actually happened and it wasn't just a vision. Chaos needed some one material to effect the Gellar fields and due to the nature of the warp they defiantly had the ability to take someone back through time in order to do it.

40k has a lot of time travel in it due to the timeless nature of the Warp. This story is an example of when they used good Time travel logic, however they have used bad time travel logic as well. An example of GW using bad Time Travel rules, or what me and my friends refer to as "Time Cop" rules, is the Story of the Lost Waaagh from the current Ork Codex. In which a Warboss and his Waaagh travel back in time through the warp and arrive some place before he left it and he ends up killing himself. And that's just silly... just like "Time Cop"

I'm not saying that it would have been impossible for it to happen this way at all, just that it would have been impossible to do this under the Emperors nose, Compared to the Emperor Ingethal is a newly spawned whelp and the Emperor could probably banish it at a whim, plus the fact that time travel would have required use of the warp which wouldnt function a) without the Emperor sensing it and b) Ingethal would fail to penetrate the very Gellar feild Argel Tal was supposed to destroy.

If it was so easy for Chaos to actually time travel then why wouldn't we have a Terminator style story with Chaos sending people back constantly to thwart the imperium?

I also would find it hard to believe that the the big E wouldn't have sensed something out of whack. Or for that matter not just snuffing them out of existance when he finally did show up in the vision..

ashtekka wrote:If it was so easy for Chaos to actually time travel then why wouldn't we have a Terminator style story with Chaos sending people back constantly to thwart the imperium?

I also would find it hard to believe that the the big E wouldn't have sensed something out of whack. Or for that matter not just snuffing them out of existance when he finally did show up in the vision..

Thankfully GW knows how dumb the Terminator thing would be... besides Necrons that is.

Also as to the Emperor knowing whether or not they are there,

The First Heretic wrote:
Be careful, Argel Tal, These souls remain blind to you as long as you do not interfere with their work.

"And if I don't?" he asked quietly.

Then one of the most powerful psychic forces in the history of life would be alerted to you, and would kill you where you stand.

They make it pretty clear that, for reasons unknown, the Emperor cannot sense them. Considering the whole story is more or less about turning what you think about the Emperor on it's ear... than I think it's fitting that it is shown that there are forces able to work right under his nose.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:I think it makes perfect sense, within the realm of good Time Travel Rules. An example of good Time Travel Rules being "12 Monkeys."

Argal Tal didn't go back and "change" history by destroying the Gellar Fields, because it had always been Argal Tal that destroyed the Gellar fields. He didn't create a paradox, because he cannot create a paradox.

I think that entire passage is pretty clear that this is what actually happened and it wasn't just a vision. Chaos needed some one material to effect the Gellar fields and due to the nature of the warp they defiantly had the ability to take someone back through time in order to do it.

40k has a lot of time travel in it due to the timeless nature of the Warp. This story is an example of when they used good Time travel logic, however they have used bad time travel logic as well. An example of GW using bad Time Travel rules, or what me and my friends refer to as "Time Cop" rules, is the Story of the Lost Waaagh from the current Ork Codex. In which a Warboss and his Waaagh travel back in time through the warp and arrive some place before he left it and he ends up killing himself. And that's just silly... just like "Time Cop"

I'm not saying that it would have been impossible for it to happen this way at all, just that it would have been impossible to do this under the Emperors nose, Compared to the Emperor Ingethal is a newly spawned whelp and the Emperor could probably banish it at a whim, plus the fact that time travel would have required use of the warp which wouldnt function a) without the Emperor sensing it and b) Ingethal would fail to penetrate the very Gellar feild Argel Tal was supposed to destroy.

A Gellar field makes it so Warp entities can't materialize. They do not cut off the warp. Astropaths and Navigators work fine from within a Gellar Field. This is yet another reason why Ingethal, and Chaos in general needed a material person (Argal Tal) to destroy the Gellar field. Remember during that scene the marines only heard the Deamon...he never materialized.

Lexicanum wrote:
Gellar field

The Gellar field was invented along with the warp drive, allowing warp-capable ships and their occupants to actually survive the hostile environment of the warp. It protects the ship and its occupants from the hostility of the warp itself as well as from the predation of warp entities such as Daemons.2

The Gellar field device emits a field called a Gellar field, essentially creating a bubble of real space around the ship. The weakening, failure, and collapse of a Gellar Field while the ship is traveling through the warp would be completely disastrous. Warp entities would tear the ship apart to reach and consume the souls of the crew.

I still think it was a vision not actual time travel, I dont believe you can trust a single word a daemon says especially when they are trying to convince you of something, plus I will wheel out the whole "everything you read in the Heresy books is opinion and perspective based so may not be exactly what happened" argument.

I think Ingethal would have warned the word bearers not to alert the Emperor because the threat of discovery would make the vision seem more real, I believe that in certain instances Chaos may be able to hide from the Emperor but not right in his back yard at the height of his power.

Back to the Gellar field surely it would provide a barrier to warp abillities though? can an astropath send a message within the warp? I've never heard this mentioned in any fluff, can you teleport from within a gellar field? again i wouldnt think this was possible, plus we are talking about the most powerfull gellar field in existance, surely it would prevent a daemon teleporting people through it?