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Hey Guys,

I am on the verge of starting a Dark Eldar army, but the GK lists I'm seeing throughout these forums have me worried. Mech Guard were historically one of the worst matchups for Dark Eldar, simply because they have SO much armor, coupled with pretty much everything being capable of downing our vehicles. Generally, the Dark Eldar strategy would be to stun/shake or better and move on. Dark Eldar were certainly capable of winning, but it's not one's ideal matchup.

However, with GKs looming, the str 8, TL AC dread with 3+ cover (shrouding) and ignore shake/stun has me worried. The dreads, while AV 12, are very hard to shut down with a 3+ cover save and the tactic of stun / move on doesn't work. Additionally, since they have such long range, it is likely that your raiders/trueborn/ravagers will have to move into psycannon range to get the shots off at the dreadnaughts. I guess one could play the "shoot the troops" game, but I'm not excited about leaving 3 psydreads untouched (which kill ~2 DE vehicles a turn).

I am not particularly scared of any infantry- or DK-based lists, since poison fire should do well against those types of lists. I just worry about seeing 3-6 3+ cover, unshake/stunable dreadnaughts across the table.

Do you guys think that this type of GK list presents a highly unfavorable matchup for DE, or do we stand a solid chance?

One of the things I really like about the purifier lists I've been building is their capacity for boatloads of strength 7 and 8 shots (40 strength 7 and 12 strength 8 at 1500), something DE fear above all else. The henchmen spam lists have lots of lascannons and those same dreads you're worried about and lots of multilasers that threaten your paper airplanes pretty well too. Even foot strike lists are probably going to have a lot of strength 5 storm bolters for you to worry about, though that's more of a fair matchup for you.

Still, it's just one codex, and while it's tournament-capable I don't think it will dominate the tournament scene by any measure.

I am on the verge of starting a Dark Eldar army, but the GK lists I'm seeing throughout these forums have me worried. Mech Guard were historically one of the worst matchups for Dark Eldar, simply because they have SO much armor, coupled with pretty much everything being capable of downing our vehicles. Generally, the Dark Eldar strategy would be to stun/shake or better and move on. Dark Eldar were certainly capable of winning, but it's not one's ideal matchup.

Speaking as mainly an SW and BA player who has occasionally dribbled with mech IG and is now assembling a GK army, I'd say that you're correct that it's a highly unfavorable matchup for DE. The way I'm going with GK is the exact same direction that I go with mech IG, which is as many AV12 vehicles as possible. In 1750 points I'll run 3x Purifiers with las/plas Razors, 6x Henchmen in Chimeras and 3x Psyriflemen. If you compare it to my usual IG list which is CCS in Chimera, PBS in Chimera, PCS + 2 infantry squads in 3 Chimeras and one Vet squad in Chimera, 3 Vendettas, 5 Hydras and a Manticore, it's pretty much the same army with a twist. The Psyriflemen are the Hydras, the Henchmen in Chimeras work like the IG equivalents and the las/plas Razors add AP2 guns just like Vendettas while the 6 psycannons from the 3 Purifier squads both add to anti-everything firepower and add a counter-charge element to the army. Cleansing Flame is just the essence of sick.

That said in 40K the particulars of the mission, terrain, who gets first turn, player skill, luck, all have an effect on the game. Ignoring all that though the GK have a definite advantage in the matchup.

Facing such an army, it may be wise to reserve everything. Between the Raider move and decent range of lances and blasters, you will get a bit of an alpha strike when you arrive.

But yeah, I also want to make DE (first warriors just arrived in the mail!) and that has me a tad worried. But not enough to give up. Having a gang of hellions drag a Chapter Master away from hus unit and then vaped by a dark lance must be one of the bes t laughs to be had in 40k!

Looks like I am going to have my face raped by GKs for a while, lol.

I am not worried, though. I reserve my opinion on new armies until I play them a bunch of times.

Leenus wrote:Hey Guys,

I am on the verge of starting a Dark Eldar army, but the GK lists I'm seeing throughout these forums have me worried. Mech Guard were historically one of the worst matchups for Dark Eldar, simply because they have SO much armor, coupled with pretty much everything being capable of downing our vehicles. Generally, the Dark Eldar strategy would be to stun/shake or better and move on. Dark Eldar were certainly capable of winning, but it's not one's ideal matchup.

However, with GKs looming, the str 8, TL AC dread with 3+ cover (shrouding) and ignore shake/stun has me worried. The dreads, while AV 12, are very hard to shut down with a 3+ cover save and the tactic of stun / move on doesn't work. Additionally, since they have such long range, it is likely that your raiders/trueborn/ravagers will have to move into psycannon range to get the shots off at the dreadnaughts. I guess one could play the "shoot the troops" game, but I'm not excited about leaving 3 psydreads untouched (which kill ~2 DE vehicles a turn).

I am not particularly scared of any infantry- or DK-based lists, since poison fire should do well against those types of lists. I just worry about seeing 3-6 3+ cover, unshake/stunable dreadnaughts across the table.

Do you guys think that this type of GK list presents a highly unfavorable matchup for DE, or do we stand a solid chance?

Of course its a bad matchup. On the flip side - where do you play 40k? I'm not terribly worried about these kind of lists being popular in tournaments for two reasons:

1. While it can eat up DE, DE are not a particularly prevalent or popular army.
2. When NECRONS can wtfpwn your army, you definitely need to make an adjustment.
3. The same pretty much holds true for any land raider army.

While a powerful anti-DE army, it isn't a very good TAC army, and I wouldn't expect it to perform particularly well at tournaments.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Leenus wrote:Hey Guys,

I am on the verge of starting a Dark Eldar army, but the GK lists I'm seeing throughout these forums have me worried. Mech Guard were historically one of the worst matchups for Dark Eldar, simply because they have SO much armor, coupled with pretty much everything being capable of downing our vehicles. Generally, the Dark Eldar strategy would be to stun/shake or better and move on. Dark Eldar were certainly capable of winning, but it's not one's ideal matchup.

However, with GKs looming, the str 8, TL AC dread with 3+ cover (shrouding) and ignore shake/stun has me worried. The dreads, while AV 12, are very hard to shut down with a 3+ cover save and the tactic of stun / move on doesn't work. Additionally, since they have such long range, it is likely that your raiders/trueborn/ravagers will have to move into psycannon range to get the shots off at the dreadnaughts. I guess one could play the "shoot the troops" game, but I'm not excited about leaving 3 psydreads untouched (which kill ~2 DE vehicles a turn).

I am not particularly scared of any infantry- or DK-based lists, since poison fire should do well against those types of lists. I just worry about seeing 3-6 3+ cover, unshake/stunable dreadnaughts across the table.

Do you guys think that this type of GK list presents a highly unfavorable matchup for DE, or do we stand a solid chance?

Of course its a bad matchup. On the flip side - where do you play 40k? I'm not terribly worried about these kind of lists being popular in tournaments for two reasons:

1. While it can eat up DE, DE are not a particularly prevalent or popular army.
2. When NECRONS can wtfpwn your army, you definitely need to make an adjustment.
3. The same pretty much holds true for any land raider army.

While a powerful anti-DE army, it isn't a very good TAC army, and I wouldn't expect it to perform particularly well at tournaments.

Why is that? 12 TL Str 8 shots on a mobile platform with AV 12 is good against Chimeras, Rhinos, Razorbacks, Raiders, Ravagers, etc.

While you are correct that they lack the ability to deal with Land Raiders at range, consider this: Purifier Squads with Halberds will completely annihilate anything that you can bring out of that Land Raider. They'll go first, kill a bunch of guys before they swing, and then ID your characters.

I don't see why a grey knight army that spends 305 points on those dreadnoughts all of a sudden can't beat Necrons. So what if they can't wreck monoliths, who really tries to do that anyways?

Dash,

You're right that the 6 dread list is a bit much for a TAC list, because it has too much trouble with certain other lists. But what I was really concerned about were the 3 psydreads. After those 405 points, there's a lot of points left to customize the army to deal with Necrons and LRs, while still making a very effective TAC list. Those three dreads offer excellent AT output against almost every opponent for a relatively small points investment.

Nevertheless, reduce it to 3 dreads, take away shrouding and push cover to a 4+. I don't think that makes the matchup meanginfully better. The GK aren't taking the 3x psydread to tailor to DE. They work for everyone, so you'll likely see them often. The 3 psycannon dreads just happen to make Dark Eldar very sad.

Therion's GK as guard with a twist have me worried. I think time will tell how popular GK end up being and how much that matchup affects Dark Eldar, but it's never fun to see another unfavorable matchup pop up!

3. The same pretty much holds true for any land raider army.

I just can't see what you're saying. Land Raiders are a particular problem for an army with 3 lascannons, 18 meltas and 6 psycannons? Refining the statement: If they're a problem for this army they must be totally unkillable for 95% of armies out there in your opinion.

I think you're still thinking from the "GK run with 6 riflemen and PAGK troops" idea, which would imply that their weakness is AV13 and up. Run with dirt cheap meltas as troops and take the actual GK from the better slots.

Leenus: I think DE are a pretty good army and you shouldn't be discouraged about starting them if you love the models. Many people like Dash here have shown they can get success with them consistently. Why I wouldn't like playing them is that the skill cap isn't high enough in this game to allow you to do some 'insane skill moves' and prevent a monkey running a good mech IG or GK army blowing up half your army atleast. You can run the math too. There's simply no good matchups at all in the DE vs GK/IG mechanised battle. Chimeras are about 3.5 times more points efficient in the shooting game than Raiders and they can take down Ravagers too. Hydras and Riflemen on the other hand are ideally suited for taking down Ravagers/Razorwings unlike the other way around. A Ravager gets 0.33 glances and 0.66 penetrates against a Dreadnought (that is immune to shakes and stuns), while the Dreadnought gets 0.6 glances and 1.8 penetrates on the Ravager and of course has it easier to get a kill from the damage chart. It's not pretty, especially as we can assume a free 4+ cover save on the Dreadnought for hugging the rear of a tank.

Sometimes an army comes out and your army just has to adjust to it. It is pretty much a rock-paper-scissors thing. Tyranids have it bad against space wolves Rune Priest/long fang-spam. DE just wrecks any MEQ foot-list. Mechguards will just about pwn any non-MSU list. Mechdar will run circles around daemons. Dual lash will just dominate foot lists. Etc., etc.... While it is not an auto-win, scissors-armies just have an inherent weakness against rock-armies that always put them at a natural disadvantage. Of course this is not taking into account terrain, mission-type and who has first turn turn, but there's just not much you can do about it except to change up your list.

I see DE armies shifting more towards a Webway Portal army with lots of beastpacks and reaver jetbikes. It's a natural shift as competent DE generals see that they just cannot compete in shooting anymore against MSU-MEQ builds.

When you shut down one option for a DE list, you always open a Portal.... a Webway Portal that is.

Yeah, against Raiders and Ravagers, the Dreads are scary... but if I run a WWP list that has Talos and Grotesques surging out of it to get them in CC and hurt them, I can take care of that worry.

Plain and simple, while the Mech variants of any list are a problem for certain DE lists, there are always ways to build up a TAC list with DE to counter them. It just might be something that not everyone does, and may not be quite as effective as the venom/trueborn spam, but can still work well if played right.

Here is the thing about dark eldar... If you play on a table with 25 percent terrain - real LOS blocking terrain - you'll do just fine. Any army with a good amount of long range slug throwing units will typically have a field day versus dark eldar on a table with a lesser amount of terrain. Of all the armies out there now dark eldar can easily match the new Grey Knights in assault due to their high initiative. Wyches are the perfect counter to Grey Knights in close combat. The good thing is there is a growing trend for more terrain on the tables at major events like BoLScon and Adepticon. Hopefully in the next couple of years it will all equalize.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Here is the thing about dark eldar... If you play on a table with 25 percent terrain - real LOS blocking terrain - you'll do just fine. Any army with a good amount of long range slug throwing units will typically have a field day versus dark eldar on a table with a lesser amount of terrain. Of all the armies out there now dark eldar can easily match the new Grey Knights in assault due to their high initiative. Wyches are the perfect counter to Grey Knights in close combat. The good thing is there is a growing trend for more terrain on the tables at major events like BoLScon and Adepticon. Hopefully in the next couple of years it will all equalize.

Terrain is only one issue DE has to deal with. The other is the dreads. I am not going to assault your wyches/incubi with my grey knights. I am going to assault them with one of my dreads and lock them in place. The dreads are dual-purpose: to shoot down your vehicles and then lock up your assault units. Then my knights can either counter-charge your locked-up units or concentrate on the rest of your army.

Haywire grenades are dread bane, simple as that. Hit them with blasters and blast pistols at close range then finish them off with the grenades. That is what will happen versus a competent dark eldar player unless you bubble wrap your dreads, and if you do so then your other units will be in assault. You can't have one without the other.

jy2 wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Here is the thing about dark eldar... If you play on a table with 25 percent terrain - real LOS blocking terrain - you'll do just fine. Any army with a good amount of long range slug throwing units will typically have a field day versus dark eldar on a table with a lesser amount of terrain. Of all the armies out there now dark eldar can easily match the new Grey Knights in assault due to their high initiative. Wyches are the perfect counter to Grey Knights in close combat. The good thing is there is a growing trend for more terrain on the tables at major events like BoLScon and Adepticon. Hopefully in the next couple of years it will all equalize.

Terrain is only one issue DE has to deal with. The other is the dreads. I am not going to assault your wyches/incubi with my grey knights. I am going to assault them with one of my dreads and lock them in place. The dreads are dual-purpose: to shoot down your vehicles and then lock up your assault units. Then my knights can either counter-charge your locked-up units or concentrate on the rest of your army.

I'm trying to figure out the scenario where dreads are going to assault wyches/incubi. =p Because dreads have a potential 12" assault threat range, and aforementioned wyches have a potential 27" assault threat range. I don't think there are any units in the GK codex that are going to tell Dark Eldar where the assaults are going to happen.

+1 to that Dash. As far as I know besides dreads assaulting out of Lucifer patterned drop pods and DC dreads (fleet) assaulting out of Stormravens the walking metal bawxz are completely stuffed plus we still have our I6 haywire grenades to which they have no real answer.

3+ cover on a Dreadnought is going to be pretty damn rare in an actual game.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:+1 to that Dash. As far as I know besides dreads assaulting out of Lucifer patterned drop pods and DC dreads (fleet) assaulting out of Stormravens the walking metal bawxz are completely stuffed plus we still have our I6 haywire grenades to which they have no real answer.

Personally, I would *also* never assault a dreadnought with haywire grenades either. Needing a 6 to hit....no thanks. Rather throw those invul saves into something with armour saves.

Dashofpepper wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Here is the thing about dark eldar... If you play on a table with 25 percent terrain - real LOS blocking terrain - you'll do just fine. Any army with a good amount of long range slug throwing units will typically have a field day versus dark eldar on a table with a lesser amount of terrain. Of all the armies out there now dark eldar can easily match the new Grey Knights in assault due to their high initiative. Wyches are the perfect counter to Grey Knights in close combat. The good thing is there is a growing trend for more terrain on the tables at major events like BoLScon and Adepticon. Hopefully in the next couple of years it will all equalize.

Terrain is only one issue DE has to deal with. The other is the dreads. I am not going to assault your wyches/incubi with my grey knights. I am going to assault them with one of my dreads and lock them in place. The dreads are dual-purpose: to shoot down your vehicles and then lock up your assault units. Then my knights can either counter-charge your locked-up units or concentrate on the rest of your army.

I'm trying to figure out the scenario where dreads are going to assault wyches/incubi. =p Because dreads have a potential 12" assault threat range, and aforementioned wyches have a potential 27" assault threat range. I don't think there are any units in the GK codex that are going to tell Dark Eldar where the assaults are going to happen.

They can if they're the ones standing between you and the units you want to assault. And don't think you will take down those dreads in a firefight. The new Grey Knights are capable of trading shots with you.

jy2 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Here is the thing about dark eldar... If you play on a table with 25 percent terrain - real LOS blocking terrain - you'll do just fine. Any army with a good amount of long range slug throwing units will typically have a field day versus dark eldar on a table with a lesser amount of terrain. Of all the armies out there now dark eldar can easily match the new Grey Knights in assault due to their high initiative. Wyches are the perfect counter to Grey Knights in close combat. The good thing is there is a growing trend for more terrain on the tables at major events like BoLScon and Adepticon. Hopefully in the next couple of years it will all equalize.

Terrain is only one issue DE has to deal with. The other is the dreads. I am not going to assault your wyches/incubi with my grey knights. I am going to assault them with one of my dreads and lock them in place. The dreads are dual-purpose: to shoot down your vehicles and then lock up your assault units. Then my knights can either counter-charge your locked-up units or concentrate on the rest of your army.

I'm trying to figure out the scenario where dreads are going to assault wyches/incubi. =p Because dreads have a potential 12" assault threat range, and aforementioned wyches have a potential 27" assault threat range. I don't think there are any units in the GK codex that are going to tell Dark Eldar where the assaults are going to happen.

They can if they're the ones standing between you and the units you want to assault. And don't think you will take down those dreads in a firefight. The new Grey Knights are capable of trading shots with you.

Well, I suppose we could sit here and theoryhammer all day whether a dreadnought can keep a skimmer from going where it wants or not.....but I suppose I'll just give it to you and wait to see some armies take the field against me.

DarknessEternal wrote:3+ cover on a Dreadnought is going to be pretty damn rare in an actual game.

Not really. As long as they take a libbie with shrouding and some transports. Dreads hide behind transports for the 3+ cover (at least a few of them will have it). The only downside is that the transports will be vulnerable.

DarknessEternal wrote:3+ cover on a Dreadnought is going to be pretty damn rare in an actual game.

No it isn't. I'm probably not actually going to build this army because it's too similar to my existing Marines, but it's really very easy to get 3+ cover saves in Codex: Grey Knights.

jy2 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:3+ cover on a Dreadnought is going to be pretty damn rare in an actual game.

Not really. As long as they take a libbie with shrouding and some transports. Dreads hide behind transports for the 3+ cover (at least a few of them will have it). The only downside is that the transports will be vulnerable.

Not if the transports smoked and also have a 3+ cover save. =D

I think the main problem DE will have with GKs(aside from being in paper tanks) is the sheer amount of stormbolter fire.


Wyches, if they are forced to walk, will get dropped by 1 round of shooting to a managable size. a 6+ invuln isn't saving anyone, especially against shots hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s.


Incubi are just screwed because Halbard armed Gks will go before the Incubi and drop them before the get to swing. and they can be shot down just like other MEQs(except they are T3)


DE also won't be getting the benifit from their first pain tokens.

Grey Templar wrote:

Wyches, if they are forced to walk, will get dropped by 1 round of shooting to a managable size. a 6+ invuln isn't saving anyone, especially against shots hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s.

speaking of wyches, vs. cleansing flame do they get their 4++. I can see an argument either way but if not then thats another ouchie for DE.

I don't really se how a S8 autocannon is mutch worse then a S7 autocannon besides the fact that GK will actualy field the autocannons.

In short I think GK will be a good matchup for DE. Why? Because there are even fewer troops to kill then regular. :-)

Give it some time, I'm sure adept Generals like Dash, will know the Ins and outs of effective DE tactics vs GK not too long after release.

I certainly wouldn't let one bad possible match up stop you from starting a DE army. I think just about Any Army stands a chance against another army, some just have a harder time at it.

If it really worries you that much, just wait a few months before you make your purchases.

...or collect both.

Dark Eldar Models are simply too beautiful to dismiss the army. I started them b/c the models are so totally awesome...and I'm more of a "gamer" than a "painter", if that says anything.

Also, its not really that both armies can decide "WHERE" assaults are going to happen. DE can do that. However, if you've got 1 or 2 raiders loaded with Bloodbrides, Incubi, HtH court or whatever and the Grey Knights are sporting 3-6 Psybolt Dreads. GK's will be able to decide "WHETHER OR NOT" assault is going to happen with those units.

If an Incubi model EVER makes it into HtH against a Grey Knight with this sort of army....it's b/c he allowed it to happen by not shooting at the transport....ever.

Deadshane1 wrote:Also, its not really that both armies can decide "WHERE" assaults are going to happen. DE can do that. However, if you've got 1 or 2 raiders loaded with Bloodbrides, Incubi, HtH court or whatever and the Grey Knights are sporting 3-6 Psybolt Dreads. GK's will be able to decide "WHETHER OR NOT" assault is going to happen with those units.

If an Incubi model EVER makes it into HtH against a Grey Knight with this sort of army....it's b/c he allowed it to happen by not shooting at the transport....ever.

I feel like the term "Alpha Strike" needs to come into play here. DE are potent because of their alpha-strike. There's no argument that 5-6 turns of 5-6 GK dread shooting is going to take down all the DE vehicles. But that's not relevant - all that matters is the first turn and who gets it.

If the DE get first turn, one of two things are going to happen.
-You deployed forward and I'm in assault in the first turn - in ADDITION to 24-26 darklight weapons trying to take down your dreadnoughts.....so that what you have left shoots back at me.
-You didn't deploy forward, and I won't make it into assault until turn 2: 24-26 darklight weapons try taking out your anti-tank.

If the GK get first turn, one of two things are going to happen.
-The table has good terrain, and you're firing at double the vehicles that you have guns to fire at, so a 4+ reduces your effectiveness, letting me get a reduced alpha-strike against you.
-The table has bad terrain, and I reserve everything. When I come in from reserves, I get a reduced alpha-strike against you.

The same strategy that applies to fights against all other marines are going to apply here too. One way or the other, the DE *are* going to get the alpha-strike. How much it hurts depends on who's going first, what the table looks like, and how threatening your shooting looks.

I think in a GK vs. DE matchup, the ability to modify your reserves up, or down will help the GK player tremendously vs. DE if they decide to reserve stuff. Overall, GK units have more punch to them than DE ones do. Especially with psybolt upgrades. I think GK will be the favored army in that match up. That's not to say that DE can't beat them, but it will be a tough game.