Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Seriously. When you read about him in the Codex, he seem like a hero's hero. Then, you read about how vainglorious and rash he is, and you start to wonder.

For those of you who have not read Chapter's Due:


I have also read here that The Assault on Black Reach book depicts Sicarius as a glory seeking jerk as well. Can anyone comment on this. I have not yet read Assault on Black Reach.

Pretty sure he's Calgar's favorite butt-buddy

Freaking uriel Ventris gets excommunicated for saving the day and blowing up a hive ship and killing a norn queen, yet sicarius gets away with all his bull just because he's "CATO SICARIUS"

I have no idea, in other words. He must have done something special in the battle for macragge (which I believe he did. Something about holding down the fort while his company suffered casualties from lictors

Sometimes results are all that matter. Having a commander like that is a good tool for any general, as long as it's used properly.

I mean, look at the many, many, historical examples of commanders that have walked the line, but gotten stuff done.

I don't see Sicarius that way. We need to remember, while SM's are all about brotherhood yada yada, they also know that they are an expendable extension of the Emperors will. Sicarius knows this very well and earned his way to a captainship. Sicarius only lives now because he's just that much more capable than the average marine, a marine hero.

He has survived countless battles despite being put into harms way by those above him. He knows they got their positions through merit as well. It is because of this meritocracy that the junior marines follow orders without question.

Marines don't expend their lives willy-nilly, but a captain has to weigh the life of a brother against the will of the Emperor and the safety of the human race. Something we as fans couldn't wrap our heads around I think.

When you read the fluff, most marines understand their position in the universe as perverse as it is.

I see him like Archer (of the TV show). Despite his many personal shortcomings, he's too good at his job to get rid of. He's also the small reminder that the blue marines are kinda pompus.
In that way, he personifies what other chapters resent about the Ultramarines.

Space marines are donkey-caves, what else is new. That's why we play them right.

Space marine captains are supposed to be real heroes' heroes, mate. Not like that kid who beat up a bully or a guy who talked someone out of suicide. They kill monsters thrice their size every day and don't even get paid, obviously they have to be about the most alpha dudes around.

Would you rather have him go around giving praise and admitting fault like some daycare teacher?

Polonius wrote:Sometimes results are all that matter. Having a commander like that is a good tool for any general, as long as it's used properly.

I mean, look at the many, many, historical examples of commanders that have walked the line, but gotten stuff done.

Ventris was sent on a suicide mission to the EoT for saving a world from the Tyranids but not doing it according to the codex.
Sicarius was one of the people who didn't want to let him back into the chapter.
Sicarius is a massive douche...
Read the Chapter's Due and Assault on Black Reach novels if you want proof.
He might be a good captain and a good fighter but he is a constant douche.

purplefood wrote:He might be a good captain and a good fighter but he is a constant douche.

If you're trying to win wars, what do you care about more?

Now, he should never become chapter master, but it's no uncommon for large military formations to have a "junkyard dog" commander. Look at Patton, J.E.B. Stuart, or even MacArthur.

Polonius wrote:

purplefood wrote:He might be a good captain and a good fighter but he is a constant douche.

If you're trying to win wars, what do you care about more?

Now, he should never become chapter master, but it's no uncommon for large military formations to have a "junkyard dog" commander. Look at Patton, J.E.B. Stuart, or even MacArthur.

He is arrogant and in both AoBR and Chapter's Due is shown to be alienating some of his men because of that.

These guys eat, sleep, and murder. Nobody said they have to be nice. Despite their training, they still have personalities. And I should think hundreds of years of study and experience would make you a bit snobby towards people.

purplefood wrote:

Polonius wrote:

purplefood wrote:He might be a good captain and a good fighter but he is a constant douche.

If you're trying to win wars, what do you care about more?

Now, he should never become chapter master, but it's no uncommon for large military formations to have a "junkyard dog" commander. Look at Patton, J.E.B. Stuart, or even MacArthur.

He is arrogant and in both AoBR and Chapter's Due is shown to be alienating some of his men because of that.

So?

I don't see that as being a douche. Lol, the imagery, purplefood... *tsk, tsk*

I see Sicarius as a person who sees the necessity of the codex and the absolute necessity at following orders. Ventris understood this.

Still, I feel yours and others pain at seeing a marine (possibly) as being beyond redemption for an infraction. This is because we don't see the universe as the marines see it and the infraction goes against literally millenia of dogma which the marines believe, somewhat rightly, has saved them from destruction.

I am NOT a huge Sicarius fan. I am a Ventris fan and enjoyed his travails immensely, but I do believe Ventris tempts fate far too often because of his humanity (bless him).

It takes characters and Chapters like Sicarius and the Ultramarines to maintain the status quo so that lesser Chapters and personages can make mistakes and then have the time and opportunity to find redemption.

So there...

There's an old yarn (probably not true) told to every law student in his professional responsibilty class:

A real estate lawyer is in his office when a man walks in, and asks if he does any criminal work. The lawyer replies "I've done some, but I might be able to help you out."

The client then tells the lawyer about how he kidnapped and killed a small girl, and even told the lawyer where the body was hidden. Shocked and appalled, the lawyer told the man that he certainly could not help him, and the man left.

The lawyer turns on the news that night, and sees a women crying about how her daughter is missing. Realizing this is the same girl, he phones the tip line and tells them where the body is. Based on evidence pulled off the body, the murderer was found, and arrested.

The murderer's defense attorney figures out who could have made the call, and the first lawyer admits under oath that he did. Because of this breach of confidence, all of the evidence gained off the body could not be admitted, and the murderer walked free. In addition, the lawyer was disbarred.

The moral: if you can't do your duty, don't take the job.

It's not about his abilities. Sicarius is an able fighter and such. What gets me is his attitude. He is full of his own glory and legend. Being in the military, I have seen such idiots. Most of the time, they get into trouble due to their stupidity, and are removed from command. Sometime, however, they are PROMOTED!!!

Seriously, one of the posters above got my point. Sure, Marines are highly motivated killers, and do not see the world as we do. BUT, when your own men start to question your orders, and realize that their lives are nothing more than a means to increase one's own legend, then there is a problem.

As I read the chapter's due, I kept hoping for Sicarius to have an epiphany...like "what have I done"? Instead, all we get is Sicarius saying, "I know what you all think of me, but I am doing things the only way I know how...", and then BAM!!! "The only thing that matters is ME!!!"

Have there been commanders like this in the past? Sure! Have they been successful? Sure! But, in command of the 2nd Company? I just expected a little more for the Ultramarines.

After reading about Calgar, Tigurius, and Agemman, and how great they are, I was hoping that Sicarius would be better than he is. Sure, he is like Caeser before he became emperor, which is fitting for the Ultramarines. Still, I just wanted more...

CaptainLoken wrote:It's not about his abilities. Sicarius is an able fighter and such. What gets me is his attitude. He is full of his own glory and legend. Being in the military, I have seen such idiots. Most of the time, they get into trouble due to their stupidity, and are removed from command. Sometime, however, they are PROMOTED!!!

Just remember, it's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know.

Unfortunately, this applies to the military just as much as civilian life.

And apparently, it applies to the Ultramarines, too.

Platuan4th wrote:

CaptainLoken wrote:It's not about his abilities. Sicarius is an able fighter and such. What gets me is his attitude. He is full of his own glory and legend. Being in the military, I have seen such idiots. Most of the time, they get into trouble due to their stupidity, and are removed from command. Sometime, however, they are PROMOTED!!!

Just remember, it's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know.

And how much ass you're willing to kiss along the way

Sicarus is just another perfect Ultramarine, which basically means he walks around like he's got a stick shoved up his

I'd like to see a story advancement where Calgar is Killed in Action and Sicarius succeeds him, and the Ultramarines are subsequently led to ruin because Sicarius is far too arrogant to be chapter master.

Just finished the ventris books i have some thoughts pertaining to this thread:
Uriel Ventris was openly disregarding the codex, now we know how that chip on the ultramarines shoulders matter.
Sicarius, is toeing the same line, and is flamboyantly disregarding codex.
Now this is what writers do, build up the character to a fall from grace, ventris for all he did, also made true on his oath.
Expect the same regarding sicarius, i finished fall of damnos where sicarius fell, and there's nigh more than two handfulls left of the second company...

When I read the Ultramarine omnibus, i get the feeling of Uriel Ventris being all the positive thing that an ultramarine is
your everyday hero, those that stares back into the face of danger and fight it

when i read Cato's fluff on the other hand.....I can't get the same feeling that he is a hero

all marine codex seems to have that guy that is not the shining beacon that exemplifies the chapter

I agree that Sicarius is kind of a but he has his uses. The man undoubtedly gets results, whether an individual approves of his methods or not doesn't really matter (unless said individual is Lord Macragge that is). Sicarius is the classic aggressive commander who is always making the big gamble. When the gamble works he ends up looking brilliant and when the gamble fails it will probably be a complete disaster. I think the man is far more intelligent than people give him credit for, you don't gamble and win as often as he seems to if you're a moron. Is he lucky? Absolutely, but he's also quite obviously very, very good. His men may not agree with all of his orders, it would be really strange if they did, but I never got the sense that any of them were questioning his command.

I think Sicarius is depicted the way he is because he is the polar opposite, personality wise, to Uriel Ventris (full disclosure: I've not read Fall of Damnos yet so can't comment on Sicarius' portrayal in it). Cato Sicarius being such an arrogant, unfeeling, holier-than-thou, jerk is precisely why Ventris seems like such a great guy. If everyone were like Uriel then he wouldn't be all that special or interesting anymore. Also, like someone said above, Sicarius represents exactly what people don't like about the Ultramarines. He's pompous, self-absorbed, arrogant and very, very successful. I think of him like the hugely paid, arrogant, superstar professional athlete. Sicarius is the guy who holds out for more money at the beginning of the season. He may be a huge jerk but he wins championships, the ladies love him, and the kids want to grow up to be him.

I don't know i think sicarius is probably the only douche in the ultamarine characters

as far as it goes even Marneus feels like a decent guy who would fight on the front , obviously considering his achievements,and how the codex seems to churn out heroes

I can't see that with Cato, he would be more fitting if he is some imperialguard commander rather than spess mahreens

To be honest, none of his men are going to complain about him; and therefore his track record speaks for itself.

Edit: But yeah, Sicarious is an enormous douche, crapped out by Ward.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:To be honest, none of his men are going to complain about him; and therefore his track record speaks for itself.

Edit: But yeah, Sicarious is an enormous douche, crapped out by Ward.

Actually a few of hi sergeants don't particularly like him...

purplefood wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:To be honest, none of his men are going to complain about him; and therefore his track record speaks for itself.

Edit: But yeah, Sicarious is an enormous douche, crapped out by Ward.

Actually a few of his sergeants don't particularly like him...

I know, but as I said, they have too much respect and he has too much of a reputation for them to dare question him or complain about him.. to be honest, they have no real choice other than to knuckle down and get on with all the dirty work he has for them.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:To be honest, none of his men are going to complain about him; and therefore his track record speaks for itself.

Edit: But yeah, Sicarious is an enormous douche, crapped out by Ward.

Actually a few of his sergeants don't particularly like him...

I know, but as I said, they have too much respect and he has too much of a reputation for them to dare question him or complain about him.. to be honest, they have no real choice other than to knuckle down and get on with all the dirty work he has for them.

Until he takes one risk too many and ends up with the entire company in a killing ground because he failed to listen to one of his sergeants warnings. He isn't a bad captain because he takes risks, he is a bad captain because he doesn't listen to anyone else and cares far too much about his own glory.

purplefood wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:To be honest, none of his men are going to complain about him; and therefore his track record speaks for itself.

Edit: But yeah, Sicarious is an enormous douche, crapped out by Ward.

Actually a few of his sergeants don't particularly like him...

I know, but as I said, they have too much respect and he has too much of a reputation for them to dare question him or complain about him.. to be honest, they have no real choice other than to knuckle down and get on with all the dirty work he has for them.

Until he takes one risk too many and ends up with the entire company in a killing ground because he failed to listen to one of his sergeants warnings. He isn't a bad captain because he takes risks, he is a bad captain because he doesn't listen to anyone else and cares far too much about his own glory.

Well then if everybody is dead who's going to complain, eh?



He almost lost his entire company at Damnos.. no punishment.. Uriel lost almost his entire company on Tarsis Ultra.. big punishment. Why? Because they didn't lose in the way that the codex dictates. Infact, Tarsis was a victory, but ohhhhhh no, the bloody codex bloody astartes is blah blah blah you should've died with your men for no reason.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:To be honest, none of his men are going to complain about him; and therefore his track record speaks for itself.

Edit: But yeah, Sicarious is an enormous douche, crapped out by Ward.

Actually a few of his sergeants don't particularly like him...

I know, but as I said, they have too much respect and he has too much of a reputation for them to dare question him or complain about him.. to be honest, they have no real choice other than to knuckle down and get on with all the dirty work he has for them.

Until he takes one risk too many and ends up with the entire company in a killing ground because he failed to listen to one of his sergeants warnings. He isn't a bad captain because he takes risks, he is a bad captain because he doesn't listen to anyone else and cares far too much about his own glory.

Well then if everybody is dead who's going to complain, eh?



He almost lost his entire company at Damnos.. no punishment.. Uriel lost almost his entire company on Tarsis Ultra.. big punishment. Why? Because they didn't lose in the way that the codex dictates. Infact, Tarsis was a victory, but ohhhhhh no, the bloody codex bloody astartes is blah blah blah you should've died with your men for no reason.

And that's another reason i don't like him. He is a massive hypocrite. He loses his entire company to the Necrons and they actually lose Damnos. Ventris defeats a Tyranids splinter fleet and loses a lot of his company and gets kicked out of the chapter for a while. Then, on return Sicarius is one of the few that think he shouldn't even be allowed back into the chapter.

Because! Sicarious = Space Douchepon.

Let us not forget my lore about Captain Cato Scarius and Captain Tyrion getting into a fight and Cato Won only because he had a sword and Tyrion only had a knife...
Yeah I think Cato Scarius is the biggest Douche in the ultramarines. At least other chapters refuse to fight with him and don't follow his orders because they don't pactiuclarly like him. Hell my Chapter one time sent a company to an area and then an ultramarines task force came in. And my chapter pulled out saying "Oh the ultramarines don't need our help, last thing we need to have happen is them to ridicule us for not using a single drop of the Codex."
I love Uriel Ventris. the guy did what he had to do to save an entire planet.