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I was just wondering, why does everyone like the Ultramarines? Personally, I don't like them, they're just so bland. IMHO there's nothing that makes them unique, unlike say....Salamanders, everything about them is unique!

( )

I don't dislike them, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I like them either. They've got a bunch of special characters, a unique history, etc. The fact that they don't have any "extra" rules makes them kinda unique.

The topic why the hate/why the loves for the Smurflings is a bi weekly event.

There are lengthy discussions if you care to do a search.
But since the hammer of the Mods descendeth and doth smite the necromancer what the heck.

So gird the loins, batten down the burg and get ready for the love and hate the Smurfs generate in equal measure.

Me, I like pretty colours so they are okay.

Luv em...obviously!

Don't care much for them but don't hate them.

The Ultramarines suffer from absolutely *awful* fluff and oversaturation. For what are supposedly the greatest tacticians in the galaxy, they don't seem to realize that bright blue and gold colors on giant troops makes them rather easy to shoot at and hard to achieve any element of shock.

They have the same problem Superman has (and why they needed to revamp him), when you're perfectly perfect in every way, it makes for a boring character at best, and more typically a downright revoltingly mary sue one.

Vaktathi wrote:The Ultramarines suffer from absolutely *awful* fluff and oversaturation. For what are supposedly the greatest tacticians in the galaxy, they don't seem to realize that bright blue and gold colors on giant troops makes them rather easy to shoot at and hard to achieve any element of shock.

They have the same problem Superman has (and why they needed to revamp him), when you're perfectly perfect in every way, it makes for a boring character at best, and more typically a downright revoltingly mary sue one.

This. Also, the whole poster-boy image is just annoying. They get the limelight while other more interesting facets of the 40K universe get shafted.

Ehhhh, I just don't like how their most notable achievements are missing all of the Horus Heresy but being the first to decide what all the legions should have to do. And losing a large portion of their chapter to Tyranids, including the entirety of 1st company. Just yet.... they are the most awesome marine evaaarrr!

It's a striking and appealing color scheme. I don't like the whole "They're the spiritual lieges of EVERY CHAPTER EVER" bit, but I've always liked the boys in blue. The first 40k minis I ever painted were the old metal power sword captain and a biker, and truth be told I painted em as Ultramarines.

I don't see too many people really "liking" Ultras, it's just they're the poster boys for GW, making them appear everywhere.

I think they're cool, I really like their colors, their massive role in the fluff, not so much.

ajo4949 wrote:I don't dislike them, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I like them either. They've got a bunch of special characters, a unique history, etc. The fact that they don't have any "extra" rules makes them kinda unique.

I Agree, to paraphrase:

"Blandness has a uniquness all of its own"

If I wanted bland I would have played SW or BA like everyone else who plays at the store near me. As it stands I started painting them blue because it looked nice. I stick to my guns despite being an inferior codex to the less bland (?) chapters.
I don't see how their storyline is any better or worse than other chapters though. White Scars act like mongols and ride bikes, Salamanders have black skin and red eyes and like fire, Space Wolves bark at the moon, etc wow now that's some really fascinating and intricate characterization to be compared to, huh?
I think of them like a rigid roman legion. They are (at least story wise) just a superior, disciplined fighting force and they know it and they act like it. What's wrong with that?

mister robouteo wrote:
I think of them like a rigid roman legion. They are (at least story wise) just a superior, disciplined fighting force and they know it and they act like it. What's wrong with that?

When a codex is written such that it heavily implies that all other marines wish they could be Ultramarines (and the author then flat out says it in a WD article, see below), that each Ultramarines Honor Guard have more honors than an entire company of marines from *any other chapter*, and that Guilleman is everyone's "spiritual liege", it gets to be more than a wee bit derpy.

Mat Ward flat out said the Ultramarines are supposed to be "the best Space Marines". (yes, reading that WD article link is painful)

Well separating tabletop logistics and the huge power disparity between theirs and the later Codex, separate the game mechanics from it and perhaps they are the best Space Marines in the sense that they embody the "ideal" of Space Marines from their inception and true purpose in every way. They are not marred by flaws, rash behavior, jealousy, secrecy, overly stubborn, etc, they are the straight and narrow upstanding pure warrior monks with lives full of discipline and righteous zeal and honor and so on.

The strategic genius of how, why, where, and when they fight can only be part of a storyline and never replicated on a tabletop as it is a bigger perspective involved, but supposedly they are the go-to guys of the Imperium in this regard, and are considered the exacting standard to which other younger chapters try to live up to. Perhaps that is what is meant by other Marines wish they could be Ultramarines.

Look at the way military guys joke around. If you are in B company, you are always making little fun jabs at C company and vice versa. Some units have long long histories of battle honors and famous names, others not so much, but are comprised of just as competent soldiers who just happened to be assigned to a different unit with a different number.
Different chapters in 40k all have their sense of honor and pride and all that, but just like in the real world military, some units have a lot more history and legacy behind their number designations than others. This is not to say that individuals in said unit necessarily follow the legacy, but there's being in Airborn and there's being in the Big Red One.
I don't think they are the "best" necessarily, I just think they are a gold standard (of a flawed ideology in the first place) but they are the best at being what (by their own rigid rules) Marines are supposed to be. I find it interesting psychologically. They wrote the rules on how to be a perfect Marine, and they follow their own rules and so in their minds, they are the perfect Marines because they follow the book. It doesn't matter that the book is not necessarily The Truth, or even remotely close to an efficient way of managing a military on all of its levels, but it's truth to them and they are very good at sticking to their own self-imposed rules.

Who says Ultramarines are everywhere? Last time I checked, my ass is still getting beat by Jaws of the World Wolf and Dante.

Goddard wrote:Who says Ultramarines are everywhere? Last time I checked, my ass is still getting beat by Jaws of the World Wolf and Dante.

Yeah that's munchkin gamers, not bland chapters responsible for that though. It's much more interesting if your predictable missile launcher and razorspam army has a furry tail and a backstory that he likes to drink and fight a lot like a viking. It's so BLAND that my army builds can't look like one of three widely used templates seen over and over in the Army Lists section, isn't it though?

Ultramarines stick to their guns in the face of the charging bandwagons, that's pretty unique I think.

I do not like the ultrasmurfs for the simple fact that they are to strict, they cannot deviate from the codex.

I only hate them for one reason, and that's the implication that everyone whishes that they were as cool as the Ultras. Us Templars youse your precious Codex as TOILET PAPER! WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU! RAAARGHBRLGBRLGBRLG!

censored by the Inquisition

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I only hate them for one reason, and that's the implication that everyone whishes that they were as cool as the Ultras. Us Templars youse your precious Codex as TOILET PAPER! WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU! RAAARGHBRLGBRLGBRLG!

censored by the Inquisition

When a codex is written such that it heavily implies that all other marines wish they could be Ultramarines (and the author then flat out says it in a WD article, see below), that each Ultramarines Honor Guard have more honors than an entire company of marines from *any other chapter*, and that Guilleman is everyone's "spiritual liege", it gets to be more than a wee bit derpy.

Mat Ward flat out said the Ultramarines are supposed to be "the best Space Marines". (yes, reading that WD article link is painful

)

That is poor imho

It seems a bit like the Cavalry saying ooo wish we were the Paras.
or vice versa or take any two regiments.

Maybe it is a popular misconception, and never served so I don't know, but I get the impression that servicemen tend to be loyal to their own regiment let alone service.
So I don't understand why any Space Marine chapter would be any different.

First AOBR box , painted as? Ultramarines
Ultramarine: so Generic marines? that is okay i guess
Blood Angels: Oh? choppy marines, they can be enraged bla bla, okay I am going to play this
Space Wolves: Can i reduce the ammount of furryness inherent in this codex?, and make them more viking? PreHeresy? Oh cool
Dark angels: secret, but secret, instead of secret. Naaaaah, pass
-Grey Knight : oh cool shiny marines, buy them at least for modelling
-Black Templar: so a bunch of religious fanatic, that have religious anger. No thank you, skip

They are not marred by flaws, rash behavior, jealousy, secrecy, overly stubborn, etc, they are the straight and narrow upstanding pure warrior monks with lives full of discipline and righteous zeal and honor and so on.

And are incredibly boring as a result.

They Ultramarines in this respect are a lot like my old roommate who won't drink (despite not having any religious/social restrictions against it or ever having any negative alcohol experience) even when someone is buying a round for the table, stops at stop signs for the full three-to-five seconds even when there's clearly nothing in any direction, sticks to 65mph even in the fast lane when everyone is having to pass him on the right going 85, is in bed by 9pm every night no exceptions to get to work 20mins away at 8am, won't go out to music shows or bars, freaks out about being 2 minutes late to work when his boss is routinely 30 minutes late, won't go out to do anything remotely dangerous or taxing even if its just biking around the local lake or going to the beach, and admonishes people for generally doing anything fun, making him a very safe and dependable person but incredibly boring and uninteresting with few friends or hobbies.

Likewise, the Ultramarines being perfectly balanced/straight and narrow/flawless and "keepers of all that is correct" also makes them boring and uninteresting.

Although, come to think of it, they aren't perfect even at sticking to their own self imposed rules. Almost every Ultramarines story has some part where the they either must go against the Codex (e.g. Uriel Ventris) or has some dispensation to depart from it (e.g. in the book Iron Warrior where there's a passage about the Ultramarines troops getting extra kit, in tabletop terms the BP/CCW/Bolter combo of the CSM's and SW's, on Calgar's authority because the Squad Leader realizes the extra kit makes them more combat effective, yet its not standard...) or start to specialize themselves outside the dictates of the Codex Astartes (e.g. Tyranid Hunters).

None of this overcomes the sillyness of all other marines wanting to be Ultramarines, or Ultramarines Honor Guard being so much better than entire companies of other chapters, etc.

When the codex author point blank states that they are "undoubtedly the best Space Marines" and that "all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines" it doesn't really go over well.


The 40k universe is all about gritty grimdark. Being the pure warrior monk in a universe of eternal slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods under the banner of what the rulebook intro describes as the "carrion lord of the imperium for whom a thousand souls die every day" of the cruelest and bloodiest regime imaginable, it tends to be sorta silly .

I wouldn't want to hang out with the guys either man, and yeah they are stick-up-the-butt anal - but that's just caricature. Orks are all violent obnoxious morons too but nobody says "I don't like Orks because they are violent obnoxious morons".. In fact, that's why they are lovable. It doesn't mean the player is like the personality of the army (eww.. DE players in goth makeup and trench coats do kind of annoy me though come to think of it though). Ultras are boring, loyal, steadfast, predictably perfectionist. That is a characterization. It is entirely correct, and, just like the equally social misfit characterizations of any other faction of Marines or any race in 40k, equally not someone I would want to hang out with either. That's why I am happy that my annoyingly anal little rules sticklers are my figure collection and not my roommate.

Oh I'm not saying that the players personalities are the same as their armies, and I understand that there's a separation, only trying to explain that the characterization of being the "straight and narrow good guys who are perfect at everything" makes for a very uninteresting faction for many people, especially when its then shoved down everyone's throats on marketing material all the time and presented as "the best of the best that everyone else wishes they could be".

It's the quirks, flaws and peculiarities that make the factions interesting for many people. For instance, I like the Iron Warriors (and the Chaos Space Marines in general) because they are bitter traitors that sustain themselves on spite and hatred. The Imperium was built on their toil and the blood of their heroes and now all they see now is a sham that they helped create. All they care about is tearing it down, bargaining with fell powers for the tools to accomplish that mission and damn the cost. They are interesting and fun because they are obsessive, paranoid, blinded by hatred and spite. Their minds have been shattered by what they see as the lie of the Imperium and their role in creating it, they are insane and ultimately damned.


If the Ultramarines ever actually sustained defeats, or got hurt by their hidebound ways, it would help make them more interesting and fun, and probably less open to the ridicule they receive. As is, they never really lose any battles, and their dogged adherence to the Codex never really comes back to bite them. Their enemies never find them predictable or able to be manipulated by their slavish adherence to a ten thousand year old battle doctrine. It's not like their methods and tactics should really be a secret to most of the galaxies opponents after ten millenia.

Vaktathi wrote:
If the Ultramarines ever actually sustained defeats, or got hurt by their hidebound ways, it would help make them more interesting and fun, and probably less open to the ridicule they receive. As is, they never really lose any battles, and their dogged adherence to the Codex never really comes back to bite them. Their enemies never find them predictable or able to be manipulated by their slavish adherence to a ten thousand year old battle doctrine. It's not like their methods and tactics should really be a secret to most of the galaxies opponents after ten millenia.

Exactly that.
Unfortunately besides the rather awesome First Tyrannic War, which actually stayed cool trough various editions, we rarely get any fluff where the "big" chapters lose in any meaningful way.
Still, this single piece of fluff made me start an Ultramarines First Company army, so, suck a dog biscuit Furywolf/ TwilightAngels lovers

I think Ultramarines are pretty cool.. better than Blood Angels! I just started playing and I already hate them.

I'd post that article from 1d4 chan but I'm sure we've all seen it enough times to get the joke. Point still stands though, can't really stand them and the man who punches to fast he rerolls to wound.

Vaktathi wrote:If the Ultramarines ever actually sustained defeats, or got hurt by their hidebound ways, it would help make them more interesting and fun, and probably less open to the ridicule they receive.

One example I can think of off the top of my head would be the 1st Tyrannic War, where they lost all the 1st company and the rest of that. I think this is the only real main loss they have sustained because in the 10k years that Warhammer 40k is set most of the other enemies are quite old, and so will have strategies of how to defeat them in the Codex Astartes, then along come the Tyranids, and no-one'd ever fought them before so there were no tactics really apart from "Kill them all!". I also think one of the reasons that they follow the Codex so rigidly is because their Primarch invented it, and hero worship can make you blind, I think this could be seen as one of their flaws.

Vaktathi wrote:As is, they never really lose any battles, and their dogged adherence to the Codex never really comes back to bite them. Their enemies never find them predictable or able to be manipulated by their slavish adherence to a ten thousand year old battle doctrine.

The codex is not "ten thousand years old", it did not start and end with Robout Guilliman, it has been added to by many many of the greatest military minds since then, and details pretty much everything from camouflage to how big a chapter should be.

Vaktathi wrote:It's not like their methods and tactics should really be a secret to most of the galaxies opponents after ten millenia.

Well, I doubt they go around leaving one survivor and giving him a copy of the Codex.

Anyway, I like the Ultras, although not some of the stuff in the recent codex.

GSO

Don't be such a hipster and hate on the popular things because they're popular.

Voted "Go Ultramarines"