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General somethingorother wrote:
One example I can think of off the top of my head would be the 1st Tyrannic War, where they lost all the 1st company and the rest of that. I think this is the only real main loss they have sustained because in the 10k years that Warhammer 40k is set most of the other enemies are quite old, and so will have strategies of how to defeat them in the Codex Astartes, then along come the Tyranids, and no-one'd ever fought them before so there were no tactics really apart from "Kill them all!". I also think one of the reasons that they follow the Codex so rigidly is because their Primarch invented it, and hero worship can make you blind, I think this could be seen as one of their flaws.

Even with the 1st Tyrannic war, they still won, they took losses yes, but looking at it, their greatest loss was the loss of a single Company of 100 men against billions of enemies. And with 10,000 years of experience, the enemies of the Imperium which are less bound to a specific combat doctrine should be able to learn and adapt to the Codex Astartes.

The codex is not "ten thousand years old", it did not start and end with Robout Guilliman, it has been added to by many many of the greatest military minds since then, and details pretty much everything from camouflage to how big a chapter should be.

I think that's the Tactica Imperialis if I'm not mistaken, which is something different.

Well, I doubt they go around leaving one survivor and giving him a copy of the Codex.

No, but tactics and strategies are learned by opponents quickly enough over the span of months and years, certainly decades, centuries and millenia. Factions like the Eldar or Chaos Space Marines at this point should be able to practically read an Ultramarine commanders mind and know exactly what they will do before they ever meet in battle.

They're alright, I find them rather droll though. Of the "big" chapters that have been fleshed out in detail (Smurfs, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels) they have the most boring backstory and there's nothing "unique" to them, they're just the arch-typical Space Marines. Perhaps in that way they're necessary to the game.

Vaktathi wrote:

General somethingorother wrote:
One example I can think of off the top of my head would be the 1st Tyrannic War, where they lost all the 1st company and the rest of that. I think this is the only real main loss they have sustained because in the 10k years that Warhammer 40k is set most of the other enemies are quite old, and so will have strategies of how to defeat them in the Codex Astartes, then along come the Tyranids, and no-one'd ever fought them before so there were no tactics really apart from "Kill them all!". I also think one of the reasons that they follow the Codex so rigidly is because their Primarch invented it, and hero worship can make you blind, I think this could be seen as one of their flaws.

Even with the 1st Tyrannic war, they still won, they took losses yes, but looking at it, their greatest loss was the loss of a single Company of 100 men against billions of enemies. And with 10,000 years of experience, the enemies of the Imperium which are less bound to a specific combat doctrine should be able to learn and adapt to the Codex Astartes.

Actaully, I do see what you mean about them being a bit lacking in obvious character, and that's fine... Anyway, how would the Tyranids, being relatively new, "Learn and adapt" to the codex?

The codex is not "ten thousand years old", it did not start and end with Robout Guilliman, it has been added to by many many of the greatest military minds since then, and details pretty much everything from camouflage to how big a chapter should be.

I think that's the Tactica Imperialis if I'm not mistaken, which is something different.

Codex: Space Marines wrote:These guidelines have been much modified over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the 41st Millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history.

Just out of interest, what is the Tactica Imperialis?

Well, I doubt they go around leaving one survivor and giving him a copy of the Codex.

No, but tactics and strategies are learned by opponents quickly enough over the span of months and years, certainly decades, centuries and millenia. Factions like the Eldar or Chaos Space Marines at this point should be able to practically read an Ultramarine commanders mind and know exactly what they will do before they ever meet in battle.

I agree that the older factions and races would be able to anticipate the strategy/tactics of a Codex strict chapter like the ultramarines to a certain extent, but one of the key teaching of the codex (IIRC) is flexibility, I don't think I will be able to provide a quote to back this up...

I think that the Ultramarine hate seen here and at places like /4/Chan are the ultimate (no pun intended) expression of Internet Hyperbole.

Ultramarines represent a consistent brand image. Go back twenty years and change the decision to make Ultras the centre of everything to, say, Blood Angels, and this thread could be called "What do you think of Blood Angles?".

Dawi-Marine'Va wrote:I was just wondering, why does everyone like the Ultramarines? Personally, I don't like them, they're just so bland. IMHO there's nothing that makes them unique, unlike say....Salamanders, everything about them is unique!

( )

The reason the Ultramarines are so bland as you say, is because everyone else uses the ultramarines stuff. The entire new codex of the space marines, is the Ultramarines codex. And the other armys just use the book.

I painted my marines as ultramarines simply because I like the color scheme. When it's painted well they look really good imho.

General somethingorother wrote:
Actaully, I do see what you mean about them being a bit lacking in obvious character, and that's fine... Anyway, how would the Tyranids, being relatively new, "Learn and adapt" to the codex?

Even being relatively new, they've been around for several hundred years and are engaged in absolutely titanic wars of attrition against. Look at the second World War and how quickly opponents fighting simply over a range of a couple thousand miles with a relatively negligible percentage of the planetary population involved in the combat zones managed to consistently create and adapt new strategies even over the course of mere months. Look at the huge gap in military performance, tactics and strategies in the two decades between the first and second world wars that allowed the Germans to totally overwhelm numerically and technologically superior opponents.

Just out of interest, what is the Tactica Imperialis?

I guess it's the equivalent of the Codex Astartes for all non-SM Imperial Forces, but is so large that it's housed on dozens of worlds and nobody knows more than a fraction of it. I'll have to find my C:SM book and re-read its passage about the Codex Astartes.

Well, there are a few reasons I think people out there dislike Ultras and like Ultras.

Starting with the dislikes:

-EVERYONE starting this hobby in my area always starts with Ultras, they're in AOBR and as that's many people's introduction to the hobby it's natural they pick something at least semi-comfortable with
-Fairly bland IMHO (Not starting a flame war), their fluff never has really done it for me
-They're the good 'ol boys

Likes:

-They're 'nilla marines, they made the Codex: Astartes and are probably the most influential chapter in both politics and any war/crusade that happens in the current universe
-They look quite good painted well
-They're the good 'ol boys (Both good and bad depending on your opinion)

Starting out this hobby I was always adamantly opposed to making or owning anything Ulramarine, but to be honest after reading a few books and doing some homework I've thought once or twice about starting an Ultras force.

Vaktathi wrote:

General somethingorother wrote:
Actaully, I do see what you mean about them being a bit lacking in obvious character, and that's fine... Anyway, how would the Tyranids, being relatively new, "Learn and adapt" to the codex?

Even being relatively new, they've been around for several hundred years and are engaged in absolutely titanic wars of attrition against. Look at the second World War and how quickly opponents fighting simply over a range of a couple thousand miles with a relatively negligible percentage of the planetary population involved in the combat zones managed to consistently create and adapt new strategies even over the course of mere months. Look at the huge gap in military performance, tactics and strategies in the two decades between the first and second world wars that allowed the Germans to totally overwhelm numerically and technologically superior opponents.

Fair enough, I was more speaking about at the time though, and I'd expect the Tyranids to be the perfect example of what you are talking about as with each new generation they evolve.

Just out of interest, what is the Tactica Imperialis?

I guess it's the equivalent of the Codex Astartes for all non-SM Imperial Forces, but is so large that it's housed on dozens of worlds and nobody knows more than a fraction of it. I'll have to find my C:SM book and re-read its passage about the Codex Astartes.

Please excuse any inaccuracy of US High Schools as I only have films to go by. This is the way I think of the Marine chapters.

So Ultramarines are the Jocks.

Dark Angels would be the mistrious Goth Types.

Blood Angels would be emos.

Space Wolves are Heavy Mettlers

Mentor Legion are computer geeks

And the Emperors Children were in Glee Club!

I have to say, i don't like them that much, but i have to say they're so-so, because of their characters!

Obsidian wrote:Please excuse any inaccuracy of US High Schools as I only have films to go by. This is the way I think of the Marine chapters.

So Ultramarines are the Jocks.

Dark Angels would be the mistrious Goth Types.

Blood Angels would be emos.

Space Wolves are Heavy Mettlers

Mentor Legion are computer geeks

And the Emperors Children were in Glee Club!

What about the Salamanders?? Otherwise, sounds great!

I really like painting them. Their stories are kinda lame. Especially in the Horus Heresy books. They did piss off Lorgar something fierce though... Thanks to ADB. To be honest I feel the Night Lords suffer the same issues that the Ultras do in combat. They are 9 foot tall giants, painted blue and gold with power plants strapped to their backs. But nobody is hating on them. Just a thought.

I can't stand them smurfs. Way too much "For the honourable honor of the honorous honourable emperor of honourable honor!"

loota boy wrote:I can't stand them smurfs. Way too much "For the honourable honor of the honorous honourable emperor of honourable honor!"

Don't forget the courage aswell

General somethingorother wrote:

loota boy wrote:I can't stand them smurfs. Way too much "For the honourable honor of the honorous honourable emperor of honourable honor!"

Don't forget the courage aswell

Yes, there's also the "Couragous courage of brave couragously couragousness."

Dawi-Marine'Va wrote:I was just wondering, why does everyone like the Ultramarines? Personally, I don't like them, they're just so bland. IMHO there's nothing that makes them unique, unlike say....Salamanders, everything about them is unique!

( )

Again, just out of interest, what makes the Salamanders interesting, for you?

When I was picking out my marine army, I looked over all the chapters I could find and looked at their backstories. There were only two chapters that seemed like an actual, relatively sane military force: Ultramarines and Imperial fists.

The random heroics and charging off half cocked to ruin the plan and get half the army blown up flavor of the wolves did nothing for me, enough of that complicating my life off-board.

The whole emo/ unreasoning beat-your-wife rage thing that the Angels, either of dark or blood variety...meh.

The Templars I do like a lot, granted, they're charging off not at all cocked and usually getting EVERYTHING blown up...but at least they all have the same plan in mind at the same time (Stab it with sharp things! NOW!) and they seem to have this cold anger thing going on rather than screaming incoherently while flailing around.

So, UM or IF....Well...Ones greatest act was defending the imperial palace during the heresy, the other was stopping a tyranid hive fleet BEFORE it was cool and everyone was doing it...One is an ugly banana yellow and the other is a pretty appealing blue and gold/blue and white...One has this whole greco/roman aspect I love and the other does not...

Sorry IFs, you're cool too, but you just remind me too much of marshmellow peeps and I hate tyranids! Go Ultramarines!

SOFDC wrote:When I was picking out my marine army, I looked over all the chapters I could find and looked at their backstories. There were only two chapters that seemed like an actual, relatively sane military force: Ultramarines and Imperial fists.

The random heroics and charging off half cocked to ruin the plan and get half the army blown up flavor of the wolves did nothing for me, enough of that complicating my life off-board.

The whole emo/ unreasoning beat-your-wife rage thing that the Angels, either of dark or blood variety...meh.

The Templars I do like a lot, granted, they're charging off not at all cocked and usually getting EVERYTHING blown up...but at least they all have the same plan in mind at the same time (Stab it with sharp things! NOW!) and they seem to have this cold anger thing going on rather than screaming incoherently while flailing around.

So, UM or IF....Well...Ones greatest act was defending the imperial palace during the heresy, the other was stopping a tyranid hive fleet BEFORE it was cool and everyone was doing it...One is an ugly banana yellow and the other is a pretty appealing blue and gold/blue and white...One has this whole greco/roman aspect I love and the other does not...

Sorry IFs, you're cool too, but you just remind me too much of marshmellow peeps and I hate tyranids! Go Ultramarines!

Well, that was probably the best reason of why someone played the Ultramarines I've ever seen. I give you mad kudos on that one brother!

Logan Grimnar would whoop the crap out of Marneus Calgar......and the Ultra Marines are lame.

*Cough*Avatar Knockout*cough*

The real reason why I don't like the Ultra Marines is that they are the most generic, overused cliche of honored military fighters. I think many other chapters have a more in depth, darker science fiction sort of feel. If you ever read a lot of scifi you know how perverse and dark it can be. I like the Space Wolves the best, because they remind me of vikings in space. Though I feel their models tend to look more cyber punk. A lot of their fluff borrows from Norse Mythology and they are at constant battle with the eye of terror. So, they are the first line of defense against the forces of Chaos.

While the young lot of them are a bit reckless and honor hungry, the older ones are a lot more wise. The aspect of a berserker comes in mind. Also, the Lone Wolf is very much like a Viking, seeking death in battle to be able to make it to Valhalla in the after life.

I find the Ultra Marine fluff and bit generic given the robust back story of 40K. After all, this is suppose to be a dark and grim dystopian future on the verge of the apocalypse. The golden age of technology is over, everything is dwindling into constant war and destruction, and survival is meek. Given the setting I think darker, more perverse, and ritualistic chapters make more sense.

Dawi-Marine'Va wrote:

Obsidian wrote:Please excuse any inaccuracy of US High Schools as I only have films to go by. This is the way I think of the Marine chapters.

So Ultramarines are the Jocks.

Dark Angels would be the mistrious Goth Types.

Blood Angels would be emos.

Space Wolves are Heavy Mettlers

Mentor Legion are computer geeks

And the Emperors Children were in Glee Club!

What about the Salamanders?? Otherwise, sounds great!

Looking at the fluff I would say their the kids that arn't academically bright, sit on their own more than likley playing with a lighter, but really good in the workshop metal working. Kind of like Judd Nelson in The Breakfast Club but who can create well crafted Hammer!

And before its asked Black Templars are the Bible Bashers.

But I digresses , the point I was kind of making was in most of these films/T.V. Programs no one else seems to like the Jocks other than the cheer leaders and the kids that don't fit in to the other Cliques (Imperial Guardsmen) want to be them. Of couse this is a gross stereotype but so are the films in baising the analogy on .

I always have trouble finding Dark Angels as the "mysterious Goth types".

They're more the "Crazed religious fanatic with a dark secret".

I still can't wrap my head around them being overused when all I play against is Blood angels, or space wolfs.

Well, if it helps: Soon you will be playing against more grey knights than either!

Seriously, it's just which codex can be used with a quick change of paint and a new book in hand thats better with some folks. If the codex marines get another update soon that puts them vying for top spot in the MEQ lineup, you will likely see a lot more ultras. Till then I'll just be over here, with my cheapest-possible TH/SS terminators, horribly overpriced devastators and pretty disappointing tactical squads.

SOFDC wrote:Well, if it helps: Soon you will be playing against more grey knights than either!

Seriously, it's just which codex can be used with a quick change of paint and a new book in hand thats better with some folks. If the codex marines get another update soon that puts them vying for top spot in the MEQ lineup, you will likely see a lot more ultras. Till then I'll just be over here, with my cheapest-possible TH/SS terminators, horribly overpriced devastators and pretty disappointing tactical squads.

The funny thing is I always picked my armies because no one else played them. When I started 40K right before 2nd edition came out I had a Genestealer cult army, because none of my friends played them. Before that I had an Epic Chaos Army because no one played them. I wanted to do marines and no one played Space Wolves back in 2nd edition. Everyone wanted Marneus Calgar or blood angels, and I have stuck with my armies ever since. I picked SW because I thought they were unique and not the cookie cutter Marine Codex like every other chapter. Though my Tyranid army is all 2nd Ed models, so I am missing a crap ton of newer models.

Now that I am getting back into it I revamped my SW and my Orks. I will probably sell off my Eldar models and keep my Nid and IG armies for fun.

Nowhere did I say that no one played SW/BA unless they were being powergamey

I got my tau for the same reason you got wolves: No one played them in my circles at the time. Unfortunately for them, I lost interest in them, too specialized, developed a dislike for their appearance. Oh well!

Edit: The time and circle will play a big part too, When I ran into my group in Texas for the first time, it was the space wolf apocalypse (this was perhaps 6 months before the new SW codex hit.) and it was wall to wall nurgle CSM or space wolves. Not one other codex player there, out of perhaps 10 people. My current group has a good spread of armies, lately seems like a lot of tau (Irony!) dark eldar and daemons. I'm sure that when the grey knights codex gets circulated and peoples army orders arrive, a lot of those dark eldar players will jump to GKs..but thats neither here nor there. We have one, exactly one other codex marine player that I have found out of the 15+ people in this group, and he plays salamanders. The army I originally thought "Well, I really like em, but I am going to catch flak for playing Ye Vanilla Boring Ultramarines!" has turned out to be by far the most unique.

I think the Tau really need a new book, and they need more troop choices.

I'd honestly say that with the mech heavy meta right now, tau are actually sitting prettier than they were when they first hit the shelves...One just has to be content with the same XV8+XV88/railhead spam lists. Necrons on the other hand, need a boost. Desperately. Tyranids as well given the DE and GK releases seem pretty much tailor made to shred anything and everything they can field, but time will tell on that.

I'd also really love for the next templar book to hit, or an update for SM (I know, I know, I just got one.)