Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When I first became involved with the hobby as a fresh faced 14yo boy (some 16 years ago) the very thing that drew me to the 40k universe was a little space dude,with a shoulder mounted rocket launcher, massive shoulder guards and blue armour. From that point on I fell in love. Over the years I have tried different armies, put the hobby on the back-burner, sold everything off, re started, painted dark green and then blood red, tried my own scheme and started actually playing games. But I have always come back to the boys in blue.

To say that the chapter is boring is taking, in my opinion, a narrow view. From a fluff perspective they appear to be very strict, however the Codex Astartes is a massive collection of information that offers an immense ammount of tactical flexibility, started by Guilliman but cetainly not finished by him. It has been, studied, poured over, disected, interpreted and added to by some of the greatest tactical minds in 10,000 years.

Lets look at them game wise (from a marine point of view) They are the classic jack of all trades. Other chapters may have attributes and rules that enable them to excel at one or two areas of combat, at the expense of another. Yet the Ultramarines are able to accommodate most, if not all, of the variables you may see in battle.

It's this dedication to a set of rules that makes them more appealing than many other chapters because the rules they follow cover an extremely broad spectrum. They are the best of everything that is good, whilst minimising the aspects which are bad.

nerdfest10 wrote:Lets look at them game wise (from a marine point of view) They are the classic jack of all trades. Other chapters may have attributes and rules that enable them to excel at one or two areas of combat, at the expense of another. Yet the Ultramarines are able to accommodate most, if not all, of the variables you may see in battle.

It's this dedication to a set of rules that makes them more appealing than many other chapters because the rules they follow cover an extremely broad spectrum. They are the best of everything that is good, whilst minimising the aspects which are bad.

Yes, but that's the thing. The term is "Jack of all trades, Master of none." But according to GW, and many Ultra players, for Ultramarines it's "Jack of all trades, Master of all" which IMHO is Bull gak

nerdfest10 wrote:When I first became involved with the hobby as a fresh faced 14yo boy (some 16 years ago) the very thing that drew me to the 40k universe was a little space dude,with a shoulder mounted rocket launcher, massive shoulder guards and blue armour. From that point on I fell in love. Over the years I have tried different armies, put the hobby on the back-burner, sold everything off, re started, painted dark green and then blood red, tried my own scheme and started actually playing games. But I have always come back to the boys in blue.

To say that the chapter is boring is taking, in my opinion, a narrow view. From a fluff perspective they appear to be very strict, however the Codex Astartes is a massive collection of information that offers an immense ammount of tactical flexibility, started by Guilliman but cetainly not finished by him. It has been, studied, poured over, disected, interpreted and added to by some of the greatest tactical minds in 10,000 years.

Lets look at them game wise (from a marine point of view) They are the classic jack of all trades. Other chapters may have attributes and rules that enable them to excel at one or two areas of combat, at the expense of another. Yet the Ultramarines are able to accommodate most, if not all, of the variables you may see in battle.

It's this dedication to a set of rules that makes them more appealing than many other chapters because the rules they follow cover an extremely broad spectrum. They are the best of everything that is good, whilst minimising the aspects which are bad.

I'm not denying what your saying, and I may just be inserting my foot into my mouth (as I havent played sinse 3rd edition) but werent Space wolves ment to also be a jack of all type of army with only a slight leaning towards cc. You just replace The words Assult Squad for Blood claws, tactical squad with Gray Hunters and devistaor Squad with Long Fangs. But people would say that they seem to have more background 'colour' to this oganisation as it is not following Codex Astartes and is more of an age thing with Space Wolves.

In my total opinion regaring Ultramaries, they are no less colourful fluff wise than many of the other Chapters. It would be like studying Medieval history without tacking in to account the Monasteries, in any mass orgonisation there has to be a base level to measure every thing. That is what the Ultras are. If their were no Ultramarines or pure Codex Astartes armies there would be nothing for the other chaprters to rebel against or measures their diffrence from a metric norm. Part of the disslike may stem from Roboute Guilliman forcing all the other chapertes to adopt HIS view of what an Astartes should be, and many people always hate being told how to live their life.

As a whole though there were way too many marine armies around for what is ment to be military speaking only a very small section of the Imperium or the galaxy in general. But suppose they do keep the hobby going being the biggest sellers.

Vaktathi wrote:

General somethingorother wrote:
One example I can think of off the top of my head would be the 1st Tyrannic War, where they lost all the 1st company and the rest of that. I think this is the only real main loss they have sustained because in the 10k years that Warhammer 40k is set most of the other enemies are quite old, and so will have strategies of how to defeat them in the Codex Astartes, then along come the Tyranids, and no-one'd ever fought them before so there were no tactics really apart from "Kill them all!". I also think one of the reasons that they follow the Codex so rigidly is because their Primarch invented it, and hero worship can make you blind, I think this could be seen as one of their flaws.

Even with the 1st Tyrannic war, they still won, they took losses yes, but looking at it, their greatest loss was the loss of a single Company of 100 men against billions of enemies. And with 10,000 years of experience, the enemies of the Imperium which are less bound to a specific combat doctrine should be able to learn and adapt to the Codex Astartes.

You're understating their losses a bit there and actually glorifying them beyond what happened yourself.

They lost the 1st company at the polar defense station. That was the final act of defiance against Behemoth, not the first. They lost a lot of men before that, not to mention the losses the Ultima Segmentum took who were under Calgars command, and the planets lost, and other Ultramarines lost in other battles as well as Ultramarines lost in naval warfare against Behemoth. They took pretty savage losses in that war.

The 1st company is just really, really exaggerated because it was the heroic last stand, so it's always the part of the war that is focused on.

They get all of the awesome characters, backgrounds etc. Me as a salamanders player feel a bit neglected

-Loki- wrote:
You're understating their losses a bit there and actually glorifying them beyond what happened yourself.

They lost the 1st company at the polar defense station. That was the final act of defiance against Behemoth, not the first. They lost a lot of men before that, not to mention the losses the Ultima Segmentum took who were under Calgars command, and the planets lost, and other Ultramarines lost in other battles as well as Ultramarines lost in naval warfare against Behemoth. They took pretty savage losses in that war.

The 1st company is just really, really exaggerated because it was the heroic last stand, so it's always the part of the war that is focused on.

yes they took other losses, but the only casualties they really mention in the retelling are the 1st Company. They never actually suffer a real *defeat*. They may lose some battles but never the wider war, and not in the manner of the Imperial Guard, Orks, Tyranids, Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Necrons, Dark Eldar, etc.

Obsidian wrote:

nerdfest10 wrote:When I first became involved with the hobby as a fresh faced 14yo boy (some 16 years ago) the very thing that drew me to the 40k universe was a little space dude,with a shoulder mounted rocket launcher, massive shoulder guards and blue armour. From that point on I fell in love. Over the years I have tried different armies, put the hobby on the back-burner, sold everything off, re started, painted dark green and then blood red, tried my own scheme and started actually playing games. But I have always come back to the boys in blue.

To say that the chapter is boring is taking, in my opinion, a narrow view. From a fluff perspective they appear to be very strict, however the Codex Astartes is a massive collection of information that offers an immense ammount of tactical flexibility, started by Guilliman but cetainly not finished by him. It has been, studied, poured over, disected, interpreted and added to by some of the greatest tactical minds in 10,000 years.

Lets look at them game wise (from a marine point of view) They are the classic jack of all trades. Other chapters may have attributes and rules that enable them to excel at one or two areas of combat, at the expense of another. Yet the Ultramarines are able to accommodate most, if not all, of the variables you may see in battle.

It's this dedication to a set of rules that makes them more appealing than many other chapters because the rules they follow cover an extremely broad spectrum. They are the best of everything that is good, whilst minimising the aspects which are bad.

I'm not denying what your saying, and I may just be inserting my foot into my mouth (as I havent played sinse 3rd edition) but werent Space wolves ment to also be a jack of all type of army with only a slight leaning towards cc. You just replace The words Assult Squad for Blood claws, tactical squad with Gray Hunters and devistaor Squad with Long Fangs. But people would say that they seem to have more background 'colour' to this oganisation as it is not following Codex Astartes and is more of an age thing with Space Wolves.

In my total opinion regaring Ultramaries, they are no less colourful fluff wise than many of the other Chapters. It would be like studying Medieval history without tacking in to account the Monasteries, in any mass orgonisation there has to be a base level to measure every thing. That is what the Ultras are. If their were no Ultramarines or pure Codex Astartes armies there would be nothing for the other chaprters to rebel against or measures their diffrence from a metric norm. Part of the disslike may stem from Roboute Guilliman forcing all the other chapertes to adopt HIS view of what an Astartes should be, and many people always hate being told how to live their life.

As a whole though there were way too many marine armies around for what is ment to be military speaking only a very small section of the Imperium or the galaxy in general. But suppose they do keep the hobby going being the biggest sellers.

RT and 2nd edition were very cookie cutter. In fact I still have some 2nd edition codices lying around in a box. You had terminators, you had devastators, you had tactical squads, and every army had similar things, they just named them differently. The main differences were the war gear, and special characters. Certain war gear was chapter only, otherwise their troops had had the same gear and rules. Back then there were no army lists either. Marneus Calgar broke the game back in the day. You just had to give him a 2+ power field because you would never beat him in close combat in the old system. Plus, he had a parry ability with this power fists and if his 2+ power field failed he had terminator armor. Back in the day Terminator Armor was a 2+ save but you got to roll 2D6 for your save. He was the first marine model that could take on Tyranids in hand to hand and win, and win almost all the time.

Back in the early 90s when I had my Tyranid army (before their 2nd edition codex even) there was one thing that was certain with Genestealers. If you got them into hand to hand combat, you won. You did not roll to hit by initiative back then, you rolled your attacks and added your WS. Marneus Calgar broke close combat so much that I think GW made the 2nd edition assassins to counter all the ultra cheese characters they made. Ever since then, I hated Marneus. I hated the fact he broke my whole army. That is why I started a Space Wolf army. I wanted to use marines to beat marines but I refused to ever use Ultra Marines.

In fact I still have the original RT Marneus model, of him sitting on his little throne with this dual power fists and his cape on a hangar. He was included in a boxed set of marines I bought cheap back in the day, since any remaining RT you could find around 2nd edition era was usually marked as clearance to get rid of it to make room to stock the newer models.

Crom wrote:

Obsidian wrote:

nerdfest10 wrote:When I first became involved with the hobby as a fresh faced 14yo boy (some 16 years ago) the very thing that drew me to the 40k universe was a little space dude,with a shoulder mounted rocket launcher, massive shoulder guards and blue armour. From that point on I fell in love. Over the years I have tried different armies, put the hobby on the back-burner, sold everything off, re started, painted dark green and then blood red, tried my own scheme and started actually playing games. But I have always come back to the boys in blue.

To say that the chapter is boring is taking, in my opinion, a narrow view. From a fluff perspective they appear to be very strict, however the Codex Astartes is a massive collection of information that offers an immense ammount of tactical flexibility, started by Guilliman but cetainly not finished by him. It has been, studied, poured over, disected, interpreted and added to by some of the greatest tactical minds in 10,000 years.

Lets look at them game wise (from a marine point of view) They are the classic jack of all trades. Other chapters may have attributes and rules that enable them to excel at one or two areas of combat, at the expense of another. Yet the Ultramarines are able to accommodate most, if not all, of the variables you may see in battle.

It's this dedication to a set of rules that makes them more appealing than many other chapters because the rules they follow cover an extremely broad spectrum. They are the best of everything that is good, whilst minimising the aspects which are bad.

I'm not denying what your saying, and I may just be inserting my foot into my mouth (as I havent played sinse 3rd edition) but werent Space wolves ment to also be a jack of all type of army with only a slight leaning towards cc. You just replace The words Assult Squad for Blood claws, tactical squad with Gray Hunters and devistaor Squad with Long Fangs. But people would say that they seem to have more background 'colour' to this oganisation as it is not following Codex Astartes and is more of an age thing with Space Wolves.

In my total opinion regaring Ultramaries, they are no less colourful fluff wise than many of the other Chapters. It would be like studying Medieval history without tacking in to account the Monasteries, in any mass orgonisation there has to be a base level to measure every thing. That is what the Ultras are. If their were no Ultramarines or pure Codex Astartes armies there would be nothing for the other chaprters to rebel against or measures their diffrence from a metric norm. Part of the disslike may stem from Roboute Guilliman forcing all the other chapertes to adopt HIS view of what an Astartes should be, and many people always hate being told how to live their life.

As a whole though there were way too many marine armies around for what is ment to be military speaking only a very small section of the Imperium or the galaxy in general. But suppose they do keep the hobby going being the biggest sellers.

RT and 2nd edition were very cookie cutter. In fact I still have some 2nd edition codices lying around in a box. You had terminators, you had devastators, you had tactical squads, and every army had similar things, they just named them differently. The main differences were the war gear, and special characters. Certain war gear was chapter only, otherwise their troops had had the same gear and rules. Back then there were no army lists either. Marneus Calgar broke the game back in the day. You just had to give him a 2+ power field because you would never beat him in close combat in the old system. Plus, he had a parry ability with this power fists and if his 2+ power field failed he had terminator armor. Back in the day Terminator Armor was a 2+ save but you got to roll 2D6 for your save. He was the first marine model that could take on Tyranids in hand to hand and win, and win almost all the time.

Back in the early 90s when I had my Tyranid army (before their 2nd edition codex even) there was one thing that was certain with Genestealers. If you got them into hand to hand combat, you won. You did not roll to hit by initiative back then, you rolled your attacks and added your WS. Marneus Calgar broke close combat so much that I think GW made the 2nd edition assassins to counter all the ultra cheese characters they made. Ever since then, I hated Marneus. I hated the fact he broke my whole army. That is why I started a Space Wolf army. I wanted to use marines to beat marines but I refused to ever use Ultra Marines.

In fact I still have the original RT Marneus model, of him sitting on his little throne with this dual power fists and his cape on a hangar. He was included in a boxed set of marines I bought cheap back in the day, since any remaining RT you could find around 2nd edition era was usually marked as clearance to get rid of it to make room to stock the newer models.

I rember the 2nd edition well or Herohammer as it turned out to be. I can rember my Hive Tyrant being taken out by an Eldar pirate captain in close combat with a cunning use of wargear. Conversly I can rember taking out whole swathes of Terminators and Drednaughts with a single ork Shock attack gun with a power field Thats what turned my Opponent who played Ultramarines on to playing eldar.

lol all it took was vortex grenades....instant death.

Crom wrote:lol all it took was vortex grenades....instant death.

Lol good old vortex grenades, only three things acctually had a save against vortex grenades Assassins dodge save, Tyranid Warp Nexus (or nodule something like that) and a plucky little Gretchen called Makari who had the best save in the whole game (2+ unmodifyable) the amont of times that he was the last green skin standing!

Obsidian wrote:

Crom wrote:lol all it took was vortex grenades....instant death.

Lol good old vortex grenades, only three things acctually had a save against vortex grenades Assassins dodge save, Tyranid Warp Nexus (or nodule something like that) and a plucky little Gretchen called Makari who had the best save in the whole game (2+ unmodifyable) the amont of times that he was the last green skin standing!

I think displacement fields also got the save. Since you scatter D6 inches randomly, but you of course had to scatter outside the template. I remember taking out so much stuff with Vortex grenades. Back then it was all about what war gear you could use since war actually had specific stats. I have to say I like 5th edition better in that regard, minus a few things. I still think troops should be able to toss grenades, not just in assault phases.

Ultramarines are cool. Most people get all uptight about them because they're not werewolves/vampires/mongols/crusaders in space, but here's the thing: those armies are only as diversified as they are *because* the Ultramarines act as the litmus test for all Space Marines.

I like them.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Ultramarines are cool. Most people get all uptight about them because they're not werewolves/vampires/mongols/crusaders in space, but here's the thing: those armies are only as diversified as they are *because* the Ultramarines act as the litmus test for all Space Marines.

I like them.

L. Wrex

This is the point Ultramarines do have a Cultural template, they are Romans in space. But after all what have the Romans ever done for us ?

Dislike the goody-goody vibes, plus as a Word Bearer player I feel compelled to loathe them utterly.
"DEATH TO THE LAPDOGS OF GUILLIMAN!"
That said, Sicarius is pretty awesome.

Obsidian wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Ultramarines are cool. Most people get all uptight about them because they're not werewolves/vampires/mongols/crusaders in space, but here's the thing: those armies are only as diversified as they are *because* the Ultramarines act as the litmus test for all Space Marines.

I like them.

L. Wrex

This is the point Ultramarines do have a Cultural template, they are Romans in space. But after all what have the Romans ever done for us ?

I believe the Roman empire was the only Empire that ever had 2 full centuries of peace. Pax Romana?

The Ultra Marines are just very generic and bland, and follow a cookie cutter holier than though goody warrior. I am not going to hate though, if you truly like them then play them. The game is suppose to be fun, just don't cry when you fall to my frost blade!

Crom wrote:

Obsidian wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Ultramarines are cool. Most people get all uptight about them because they're not werewolves/vampires/mongols/crusaders in space, but here's the thing: those armies are only as diversified as they are *because* the Ultramarines act as the litmus test for all Space Marines.

I like them.

L. Wrex

This is the point Ultramarines do have a Cultural template, they are Romans in space. But after all what have the Romans ever done for us ?

I believe the Roman empire was the only Empire that ever had 2 full centuries of peace. Pax Romana?

The Ultra Marines are just very generic and bland, and follow a cookie cutter holier than though goody warrior. I am not going to hate though, if you truly like them then play them. The game is suppose to be fun, just don't cry when you fall to my frost blade!

Two whole centuries of 'relative' peace kept by a Rock soild miliary force (albeit a declineing one) slaughtering any one showing any minor insurrection. A bit like the Imperium of man .