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Hi guys!
I am starting a new blood angels descent of angels army.
Help me with HQ choice.

Dante hands down.

Pure DoA? Librarians w/ JP's. the 5+ covers a great boon

Dante is leading.
Why do you think that Dante is better than Sanguinor?

With the astropath(? Astopath?) With Mr. Grim you do not need so many blood chalices for furius charge. Also, he is a POWER house.

Mephiston, always.

Mephiston is THE THING for BA. Every build benefits from him, whether you go mech, jumper, dual rock, or DoA (the only real 4 builds). Admittedly, DoA benefits the least from him, but still more than what your basic Libby will bring.

Astorath, by far. Not only does he pack an impressive punch in CC, but he can greatly affect your entire army by giving them all Furious Charge and Fearless.

You mean Astorath?
and people dont use the chalice for FC.
They use it for the FNP, which is alot better and keeps them up and running.

As for Astorath, 3 S6 power weapon attacks is hardly a game winning HQ.
2+/4++ isnt too bad, but no EW.


Depends how you want to play really though.

I would usually use dante, but thats only so i can drop in behind a large vehicle and take a shot at it to start off.
(dante + as many infernus as possible)



Failing that, sanguinor is pretty damn good on his own.
A fair few more attacks, better ++ save, the unit upgrade isnt too bad either.

Aura will help when you go in for multi-assaults, or even if you bottle neck the other army and assault it.

Also, keep in mind you will face GK at some point.
Astorath will take a force wep to the face and give up.
Sanguinor will keep throwing out attacks ignoring it, and in general, do quite a bit of damage.

Meph?
Why even think of him in this list?
Wings keep him up to pace, but thats about it.
He is a solo unit like snaguinor, but can be ID'd, doesent buff units and generally dies very quickly since you have no real shields for him.

Jabbdo wrote:Mephiston, always.

Mephiston is THE THING for BA. Every build benefits from him, whether you go mech, jumper, dual rock, or DoA (the only real 4 builds). Admittedly, DoA benefits the least from him, but still more than what your basic Libby will bring.

Jackal wrote:
Meph?
Why even think of him in this list?
Wings keep him up to pace, but thats about it.
He is a solo unit like snaguinor, but can be ID'd, doesent buff units and generally dies very quickly since you have no real chields for him.

This. I don't see any character that costs the same as a Land Raider as a "must-have" in any build. Especially since he is not a force multiplier. He is a self-multiplier. At least Dante gets one of your melta-assault squads next to their target without scatter and can mess with your opponent's mind by putting one of his powerful units at a disadvantage. Mephiston simply wrecks shop. Sure, he's powerful, but THE THING for BA?

I'm not so sure. He's just as easy to kill as a Trygon. Just focus fire - especially if he's trying to catch up to the rest of a DoA army. He's gotta footslog at first, then he can jump turn 1. Leaving just Mephiston on the board if it's a pure DoA list. So, you gonna leave that single-model high-costing model on the board for a full turn before the rest of your army arrives? Please do.

Edit: Heh, just noticed "Astropath".

Jabbdo wrote:Mephiston, always.

Mephiston is THE THING for BA. Every build benefits from him, whether you go mech, jumper, dual rock, or DoA (the only real 4 builds). Admittedly, DoA benefits the least from him, but still more than what your basic Libby will bring.

Well maybe he is but how can you deploy him in DOA force

Jackal wrote:
Meph?
Why even think of him in this list?
Wings keep him up to pace, but thats about it.
He is a solo unit like snaguinor, but can be ID'd, doesent buff units and generally dies very quickly since you have no real shields for him.

How, exactly, are you ID'ing him with shooting? With Wraithguard or something? That's all that comes to mind.

Sure he'll die quickly. Hide him out of LOS and be done with it.

I admit, he's not the optimal choice for a DoA list. I'd go with a basic Libby and use 125pts on something else.

But yeah, in ANY mech list, he's mandatory.

Show me any 150pt unit, from any codex, that brings psy defense, is as killy as Meph, and can be hidden ENTIRELY out of LOS behind a rhino. Oh wait. That would be none.

Jabbdo wrote:
But yeah, in ANY mech list, he's mandatory.

Not. At. All.

Jabbdo wrote:Show me any 150pt unit, from any codex, that brings psy defense, is as killy as Meph, and can be hidden ENTIRELY out of LOS behind a rhino. Oh wait. That would be none.

Yeah, and you're off on his points by about 100.

Puma - Imagine the look on a players face using meph when a GK player nades him then ID's him since he is now I1.


He is a solo tank that dies to anything that ignores armour, or even mass fire.
No EW means he is force wep bait.
With that much psyker defence in an army, do you really think meph will be using any buffs?

I generally think he will get torn to pieces.
Mainly due to the fact there is no armour to shelter in or behind.





Still have my money on sanguinor though as a primary HQ, then a JP libby to help out.

Feel like im losing my mind here, but cant think back to the rules (book is somewhere)
Since sanguinor isnt a character, would that mean he would be a basic unit? (ie: Can characters join, or would he be a 1 man unit only?)

A Librarian is 100pts, yes?

250-100=150, correct?

Who fails at basic math again?

You gotta take a HQ. Unless you're a fluff bunny, you go with a Lib, as he's the cheapest and brings psy defense. Now, if you wish, you can upgrade you Lib's stats signifigantly, give him some cool special rules, and just make him an all-round badass. And hey presto, you're looking at Mephiston!

That what I mean. Meph isnt a 250pt unit. He's a 150pt UPGRADE.

And no, he's not necessarily MANDATORY. Same thing as a Rhino isnt mandatory for your tactical squads. Its just that what he brings, for the amount of points he costs, there's really no reason NOT to take him.

Jackal wrote:
Since sanguinor isnt a character, would that mean he would be a basic unit? (ie: Can characters join, or would he be a 1 man unit only?)

He's a unit "always consisting of a single model." No joining.

Jackal wrote:

Feel like im losing my mind here, but cant think back to the rules (book is somewhere)
Since sanguinor isnt a character, would that mean he would be a basic unit? (ie: Can characters join, or would he be a 1 man unit only?)

Characters cant join, same thing as with Meph, they're both single model units that can never contain more than one model.

But why are you taking Sanguinor anyway? Meph was supposed to be easily killable via shooting, right? And Sanguinor isnt? Really, wake up man.

Jabbdo wrote:A Librarian is 100pts, yes?

250-100=150, correct?

Who fails at basic math again?

Right, because you made that clear in your post above. . .

Jabbdo wrote:You gotta take a HQ. Unless you're a fluff bunny, you go with a Lib, as he's the cheapest and brings psy defense. Now, if you wish, you can upgrade you Lib's stats signifigantly, give him some cool special rules, and just make him an all-round badass. And hey presto, you're looking at Mephiston!

That what I mean. Meph isnt a 250pt unit. He's a 150pt UPGRADE.

Right. . .so Mephiston can choose his powers? He can get that neat Lance or Shield of Sanguinus? Hmm. .no. . .Oh, but at least he can join units like a librarian!! Hmm. . .no. Well, at the very least he can upgrade to get some sort of Invulnerable save!! Oh wait. . .nope.

Yeah, what an upgrade!

Jabbdo wrote:there's really no reason NOT to take him.

See above.

Jackal wrote:Puma - Imagine the look on a players face using meph when a GK player nades him then ID's him since he is now I1.


He is a solo tank that dies to anything that ignores armour, or even mass fire.
No EW means he is force wep bait.
With that much psyker defence in an army, do you really think meph will be using any buffs?

I generally think he will get torn to pieces.
Mainly due to the fact there is no armour to shelter in or behind.

Wait what? Are we playing Grey Knights now?

And yeah, Grey Knights have no psy defense for buffs except a regular libby hood, which is retardedly expensive and cant get into rhinos, so dont expect to see it every time.

And yeah, force weapons suck for Meph. But that's just tough.

How, exactly, are you ID'ing him with shooting? With Wraithguard or something? That's all that comes to mind.

That would be with the new flavour of the month weapon.
The force weapon.

Sure he'll die quickly. Hide him out of LOS and be done with it.

So, i have a 250 point model, and im going to hide him all of the time.
1: When do you plan on letting him out of cover and attacking?
2: how many tables have enough terrani that you can simply be blocked by something every time you move?

I admit, he's not the optimal choice for a DoA list. I'd go with a basic Libby and use 125pts on something else.

He is nowhere near optimal.
If you want to run him in an army, you need to tailor it to work around him.

But yeah, in ANY mech list, he's mandatory.

Says who?
He costs the same as a land raider and gets killed with alot more ease. But puts out less damage in return.

Show me any 150pt unit, from any codex, that brings psy defense, is as killy as Meph, and can be hidden ENTIRELY out of LOS behind a rhino. Oh wait. That would be none.

I assume you mean 250 points?
Or are you taking the piss with this one?
I would prefer to take a GK grand master if i had to fit your criteria.

However, 1 man armies never work and allways have points tied up in a fanboy model that is hyped to the point people actually think its worth using.
I rather take a libby or 2 as they help alot more.

puma713 wrote:

Right. . .so Mephiston can choose his powers? He can get that neat Lance or Shield of Sanguinus? Hmm. .no. . .Oh, but at least he can join units like a librarian!! Hmm. . .no. Well, at the very least he can upgrade to get some sort of Invulnerable save!! Oh wait. . .nope.

Yeah, what an upgrade!

See above.

I'm tired of the "Meph is gak" conversation, I've had it too many fething times to remember. Have you ever even tried him, by the way?

Show me. Any unit. That costs 150pts. That can hide out of LOS behind a single rhino. And has MC stats. And brings psy defense.

There. Are. None.

But why are you taking Sanguinor anyway? Meph was supposed to be easily killable via shooting, right? And Sanguinor isnt? Really, wake up man.

Meph - 2+ save, thats it.
Sanguinor - 2+, 3++, EW

Oh, and sang is 100% mobile 100% of the time.
He doesent get his jump pack nullified.

I think thats pretty clear.

If you want shield, which is good in a mech army, take another lib.

Meph provides a scary assault threat to any units that want to come within 24" of your tanks in midfield, which NO OTHER unit in the codex can do.

I'm tired of the "Meph is gak" conversation, I've had it too many fething times to remember. Have you ever even tried him, by the way?

Ive played BA for about 7-8 years, yes, i have used him alot.

Show me. Any unit. That costs 150pts. That can hide out of LOS behind a single rhino. And has MC stats. And brings psy defense.

No, a unit that costs 250 points.
You dont subtract points away from a model when comparing it to something.

There. Are. None.

Have you ever seen a russian sharp-shooter that uses only an RPG at 2-3 miles range while drinking a bottle of vodka?
Neither have i, and usually things dont get seen before because they arent a good idea.

Jabbdo wrote:That costs 150pts.

This is too funny.

This is too funny.

Looks like bollocks logic to me mate

So, a reclusiarch is only 30 points now?
Since he is an upgraded chappy.

Jackal wrote:

But why are you taking Sanguinor anyway? Meph was supposed to be easily killable via shooting, right? And Sanguinor isnt? Really, wake up man.

Meph - 2+ save, thats it.
Sanguinor - 2+, 3++, EW

Meph - 54 bolter shots to put a single wound on him. 270 to kill him. 3.6 lascannon shots to put a wound on him. 18 to kill him.

Sang - 18 bolter shots to put a single wound on him. 54 to kill him. 5.4 lascannon shots to put a wound on him. 16.2 to kill him.

Yep, EXTREMELY survivable, is Sanguinor.

Against torrent, he's a joke. Cant join units, dies as easy as 3 terminators.

Even against AP 1-2 fire Meph is more survivable, thanks to having more wounds. This is using str8+ weaponry, Meph wins out even more against plasma, as it needs 3's to wound him.

As I said, force weapons suck. Will have to see how many Grey Knight players start showing up, but I dont think that he will become by any means unplayable, only slightly more counterable due to the meta changing.

Top choice in my opinion is a JP Librarian (2x prefferably). Not only for his great powers (shield, unleashed rage, blood lance, fear of darkness) psychic defense, but also his great value. Shield can be critical for you vunerable jump troops after they deep strike.

Runners up are the Sanguinor, Astorath, Dante (if you wanna include sang guard).

Mephiston is a monster HQ, but I don't see him working in a pure DoA list. He cannot arrive via deep strike with the rest of the army, and has no tanks to hide behind either.

Jackal wrote:

This is too funny.

Looks like bollocks logic to me mate

So, a reclusiarch is only 30 points now?
Since he is an upgraded chappy.

Usually, you will want to take a Lib, because psy defense is good, he comes with some nice powers, and he's fairly cheap.

A librarian is 100pts. Yes? Do you agree with me?

Mephiston is 250pts. He brings psychic defense, too. Sure, he lacks some of the cool powers Lib's get (shield is the biggest loss for a mech army, but its by no means a necessity).

So, instead of taking your 100pt mandatory HQ Librarian, you pay 150pts EXTRA (250-100=150) and get Mephiston.

Show me where the flaws are in this logic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree, he is by no means an optimal choice for a DoA list (a Librarian is far superior). But he is still an option, and a far better one than Sanguinor.

some needlessly offensive comments removed. Please do not use language or tone like this on Dakka or your posting privileges will be suspended.

The flaws would be when you simply said he was a 150 point upgrade for a libby.
Now, thats pretty vague, and sounds as if you were stating he is simply an upgraded version for a fee, correct?

Now, if you werent soo vague in the 1st place, comments wouldnt have been said.

The fact it wasnt just me that picked up on it says something about the way you wrote it.

If you want to resort to insults, go for it, ive been called worse.



Now, for the biggest flaw in your logic?
You want a character taken in a DoA list that does not have DoA.

Jabbdo wrote:

Jackal wrote:

But why are you taking Sanguinor anyway? Meph was supposed to be easily killable via shooting, right? And Sanguinor isnt? Really, wake up man.

Meph - 2+ save, thats it.
Sanguinor - 2+, 3++, EW

Meph - 54 bolter shots to put a single wound on him. 270 to kill him. 3.6 lascannon shots to put a wound on him. 18 to kill him.

Sang - 12 bolter shots to put a single wound on him. 36 to kill him. 5.4 lascannon shots to put a wound on him. 16.2 to kill him.

Yep, EXTREMELY survivable, is Sanguinor.

I would take Sanguinor over Meph any day, but especially in a DoA list. Sanguinor can drop in with the army. He is an army multiplier and he can be in assault turn 2. Now, if they unload everything into him and kill him, then they haven't shot all the Angels that have come in as well. As far as Meph's survivability goes - the deal is getting him down before he gets in bolter range. How did you come up with 3.6 lascannon shots put a wound on him? A lascannon has an 83.3% chance to wound him. If you shot 18 lascannons at Mephiston, at BS 3 (for your advantage), you'd hit with 9. You'd wound with 7.

Same thing with Sanguinor. You'd hit with 9, you'd wound with 7. Ah! But he gets to save 66.7% of those. Sanguinor lives.

Jabbdo wrote:Even against AP 1-2 fire Meph is more survivable, thanks to having more wounds. This is using str8+ weaponry, Meph wins out even more against plasma, as it needs 3's to wound him.

And will hurt him, when Sanguinor gets a save. . .

Jabbdo wrote:As I said, force weapons suck. Will have to see how many Grey Knight players start showing up, but I dont think that he will become by any means unplayable, only slightly more counterable due to the meta changing.

And Dark Eldar. They love Mephiston with all their "Wound on 4+" hail of weapons.

Edit: OT of the thread though. To be fair, I probably wouldn't take either. I'd probably go with Astorath or Dante and a Libby.