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Good....afternoon all, I'd like to pose a question.

Is it possible for something to come back from chaos? We hear all the time about loyal citizens breaking their will and succumbing to the unholy powers, but does chaos suffer from the same defection rate?

This question arises because Im thinking of using an anti-hero theme for my SM chapter. A lot of the time people who were once evil have converted to good for whatever reason, and fight fire with fire using whatever shreds of power they brought with them. Look at Alucard, Sparda, and even Kratos in a way; they're the kind of inspiration I want to draw on.

So the idea is that this detachment of CSM come across an incredibly powerful relic of evil, and think to load it onto their ship, head into the warp, and see if they can get it close enough to the ethereal side of the Golden Throne to tip the balance of the eternal stalemate.

Anyway, to cut a long and dramatic story short; they get close, some unprecedented blessing of the emperor ripples through the warp, and all of the CSM on the vessel have an epiphany, released from their madness for just long enough to plant a seed of doubt. The daemonic commander sees the event and orders the retreat, where they return to whatever world they come from and imprison the blessed marines, putting them through torture in an attempt to rebirth the mindless black that is chaos. They rally against this having come to their senses and fight free of the chains and cells, an army of convicts, rescuing others as they go and eventually escaping the planet with the aid of a Black Templar detachment that was in the process of assaulting the world.

What we're left with is this hell hardened army of chaos fugitives struck pure by proximity to the God Emperor. They dont fight with the same core of righteousness that all unblinking SM seem to motivate themselves by, but rather a hatred of chaos that stems from hatred of their old selves, and an obligation to the Emperor to earn this retribution that was given them.

Gamewise Im using the SM codex and models, no funny business, I just wanted a feel to the army that was darker and driven instead of emotionless and professional.

Thoughts?

You can do whatever man, aint no GW police who don't like creativity.

I think that sounds pretty cool, but I'd say they would have kept their....history from the Black Templars. I don't see any Space Marine co-operating with the taint of Chaos, in any of its forms.

Operating alone; like the Mentors, or being officially renegade but still loyal to the Emperor; like the Knights of Blood, would not be a bad place to start for thinking how they would fit into the Imperium.

Change the Black Templars to another chapter and you have a great start.
They will not be accepted by any other chapter or Imperial organisation but a few people might re-supply them in order for their help with raids and such.

Unlikely seeing as you give your soul to Chaos. If you turn back to the emperor or your leader for what ever reason they would kill you with a click of the finger. You could do a renegade chapter like the Soul Drinkers not courpted by chaos and exiled from the imperium but still fight for the emperor. Hope that helps

As far as getting resupplied goes, they could always double back to some imperial world they'd recently blitzed and use the kit of whatever SM army was stationed there. Its some sort of atonement too; in compensation for having killed them all while under chaotic influence, they take up their weapons and continue the fight in their stead.

It's fair enough if nobody else wants to fight alongside them. Maybe instead they'd keep their dark side a secret, impersonating the marines who's gear they took, but still deny assistance lest they be found out. If they were encountered by any other chapter they'd just see a bunch of marines going hammer and tongs on the nearest xenos and think nothing of it.

Im kinda liking this secret and atonement thing. That they're not actually this badass company everyone thinks they are, fighting in the emperors name, but rather imposters trying to bury their guilt by bringing honour to the weapons they wield and the chapter they slaughtered.

Precedent exists in the deathwatch role-playing book for space marines which have left chaos, or for any other reason wish to re-join the imperium, to join the deathwatch. although rare and in the time scale of decades per person and not an entire chapter at once.

however the deathwatch forms specialized kill teams with high grade equipment, and certainty do not maintain "deathwatch chapters". the group would be split in a way that would make the organisation of these marines into a chapter impossible.

Dicelowly wrote:Good....afternoon all, I'd like to pose a question.

Is it possible for something to come back from chaos? We hear all the time about loyal citizens breaking their will and succumbing to the unholy powers, but does chaos suffer from the same defection rate?

This question arises because Im thinking of using an anti-hero theme for my SM chapter. A lot of the time people who were once evil have converted to good for whatever reason, and fight fire with fire using whatever shreds of power they brought with them. Look at Alucard, Sparda, and even Kratos in a way; they're the kind of inspiration I want to draw on.

So the idea is that this detachment of CSM come across an incredibly powerful relic of evil, and think to load it onto their ship, head into the warp, and see if they can get it close enough to the ethereal side of the Golden Throne to tip the balance of the eternal stalemate.

Anyway, to cut a long and dramatic story short; they get close, some unprecedented blessing of the emperor ripples through the warp, and all of the CSM on the vessel have an epiphany, released from their madness for just long enough to plant a seed of doubt. The daemonic commander sees the event and orders the retreat, where they return to whatever world they come from and imprison the blessed marines, putting them through torture in an attempt to rebirth the mindless black that is chaos. They rally against this having come to their senses and fight free of the chains and cells, an army of convicts, rescuing others as they go and eventually escaping the planet with the aid of a Black Templar detachment that was in the process of assaulting the world.

What we're left with is this hell hardened army of chaos fugitives struck pure by proximity to the God Emperor. They dont fight with the same core of righteousness that all unblinking SM seem to motivate themselves by, but rather a hatred of chaos that stems from hatred of their old selves, and an obligation to the Emperor to earn this retribution that was given them.

Gamewise Im using the SM codex and models, no funny business, I just wanted a feel to the army that was darker and driven instead of emotionless and professional.

Thoughts?

No way!!! You can't turn off awesome!!!

Sure you can, just stand next to Steven Seagal.

This is interesting, I like your ideas. I just wanted to say look at Cypher, his background is a little murky but there are clear implications that he might be looking for redemption

Sounds good. What about the blast coming from a holy relic or maybe even an imperial saint though. Heck you could even twist the plot so that the great relic of evil they're after is only considered evil (by chaos leaders) because it's actually a holy relic of a Saint and it has the power to free souls from the grip of chaos but that part is kept secret just like the existence of chaos is kept secret from the bulk of humanity.
The marines seeking to take the object for what they perceive as a weapon to use against the false emperor are instead freed from chaos by it. A sorcerer in the know tries to stop them but is unable to convince them of the relic's true properties in time.

There have (if I remember) been several rather small passages in the overall fluff where marines have turned to chaos then decided to go all loyalist again. Usually after praying to chaos for help, then seeing the bad side of a chaos god, leading them to think 'woops! looks like the emprah was right!'

Usually the imperium lets them back in, but they pay through the ass for it in sanctions, pentinance punishments, crusades, general extermination if your not putting enough effort into the 'purification' process and tend to get lots of 'can I come round for tea' requests from the ordo hereticus

In fact, though please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this basically what happened in the badab war with the Lamenters? who are know on a rather long and painful pentinance thingy? Also didn't the soul drinkers turn chaos, then turn imperial, but were kind of rejected but still fight in the name of the imperium?

Dicelowly wrote:Sure you can, just stand next to Steven Seagal.

He just needs an injection of Charlie Sheen.

Mantis Warriors are good example I think in my personal opinion.

It's been said already, this is a great start. (change the black templars) but they would never be accepted back into the Imperium's favor. Also, what of recruitment? Where would your army find its recruits?

Warboss Narznok wrote:Mantis Warriors are good example I think in my personal opinion.

The difference here is that the Mantis Warriors, Executioners and Lamentors had no taint of Chaos found in them. It was martial honour and trust in their brothers, the Astral Claws, that drove them to rebel against the Imperium.

If there was taint of Chaos found then they would have been treated like any other traitor and destroyed rather than sent on a penitent crusade.

I don't know if this exactly what you're looking for but the Exocrist chapter of SM have an iniation rite where you become possessed by a daemon then break free of it's hold. I believe there is another organization in some old fluff that does this as well (I think they were called Illuminati, or Grey Senseis) after the ordeal they are pretty much immune to chaos.

Anyway it shows that daemonic possession at the least can be overcome. But it may not be the same thing as going renegade then loyalist again. Hope it helps though

The Soul Drinkers were mislead and corrupted by Chaos, but thru off Chaos' hold. I think the official Imperium line is that they're the ebil and need to be destroyed, but they do still fight to protect the galaxy. Or that's my understanding. Has been a while since I read the Soul Drinker omnibus.

It happens, Luther changed at the last minute during his battle with Lion El'Jonson. Fulgrim did as well before being overtaken by his Daemon blade.

Now that you mention it, I think Horus also got all repentful right before getting obliterated by the Emprah

Some gods, like Tzeentch and Nurgle, you can't. Both gods have fail safes in place, just in case you have a change of heart. Tzeentch will drop a piano on your head and Nurgle is the only thing keeping you together.

In theory, if your not too corrupted mentally or physically, and go through some serious repenting, then you should be able to turn away.

Harriticus wrote:It happens, Luther changed at the last minute during his battle with Lion El'Jonson. Fulgrim did as well before being overtaken by his Daemon blade.

Luther wasn't really "corrupted by Chaos" though. Chaos was just kind of manipulating him into turning against the Lion.

Nothing he did was really for his benefit, but he did it to try to "save" Caliban.

I'm a fan of the theory that the Lion was waiting to see if Horus would win before claiming his allegiance. Luther was pure, Johnson was corrupt. Or so the conspiracy theorists say.

Yes you can un-chaos, as it were. Zephro Carnelian did it, as did all the Illuminati. The old lost and the damned books have the lore you are looking for in that regard.

It depends on whether you bound your soul or not, and whether you can survive through any mutations that have affected you or not....


As it is said "my armor is contempt".

Thing is, there will be no return to the imperial fold. You want an example of how "returning" marines are treated? Then look at the Dark Angels, all redemption and fire. No forgiveness and rehabilitation. Depending on just HOW glorious and emperor-fearing your soldiers were, the most the black templar would swallow is turn their eyes the other way for long enough to let the double-crossers flee.

Kanluwen wrote:

Harriticus wrote:It happens, Luther changed at the last minute during his battle with Lion El'Jonson. Fulgrim did as well before being overtaken by his Daemon blade.

Luther wasn't really "corrupted by Chaos" though. Chaos was just kind of manipulating him into turning against the Lion.

Nothing he did was really for his benefit, but he did it to try to "save" Caliban.

Honestly, this sort of argument comes down to when you think someone is corrupted. As soon as they start listening to the lies, that's what I'd call corrupted. There's a long path between listening to Chaos' lies and acting on them to sprouting tentacles from your ass.

Alpha Legion....there waiting for a sign from the Emperor that removes the stain on them. there not true traitors....just forced down that road of chaos.

Sure you aren't thinking of the Fallen there? Alpha Legion definitely weren't 'forced down the path of Chaos'.

Legion spoilers. Really - ending of Legion by Dan Abnett completely spoiled.

Someone has a sig around here that says something to the effect of "These types usually get sent on a suicide mission to redeem themselves. It's considered an extreme breach of etiquette to be alive at the end of such things."

-Loki- wrote:Sure you aren't thinking of the Fallen there? Alpha Legion definitely weren't 'forced down the path of Chaos'.

Legion spoilers. Really - ending of Legion by Dan Abnett completely spoiled.

Spoiler:

They were shown the future, what would happen if the Emperor defeated Horus. A future that was the Age of the Imperium, with mankind slowly dying, and Chaos winning due to massive influxes of emotions. The alternate was the Emperor losing the Heresy, and within a few centuries Horus would wipe out humanity in an act of despair, which would destroy the Chaos gods. They sided with the Horus to help the Emperor defeat Chaos.

which raises the question if the emperor simply does not seek out a place in the warp for himself at the helm, without having to share with the other powers? Technically seapking nobody knows his true will....

warpcrafter wrote:
No way!!! You can't turn off awesome!!!

Sure you can, just become a Scientologist.