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So I have consistently lost to horde armies, but dont have the money to buy 1500 more points of horde killers.

I need to know how various things perform in the field. Can anybody describe what it is like to use the airburster or CIB on the tabletop? I can read the codex and rules and statlines and whatnot, and I have a perverted love for markerlights, but what can I do with flamers or the like? I need help overcoming this weakness. I do really well against MEQ's or better, because I have the high powered weapons I need, but what works against 30 sluggas or a horde of gaunts. I can get the rapid fire shots off, and fish of fury sometimes works, and sometimes isn't enough. What can I do?

I don't seem to have this problem with my Iron Hands, but then again they have ROCKET LAUNCHERS!!!

There a couple things you can do. Line up your firewarriors as bait, take your shots, then get in your Devilfish and run away. I find having cheap suicide crisis with flamers and maybe burst cannons deepstrike in (make sure you have a pathfinder devilfish to help them land where they need to be) is great. AFP and Hammerheads drop pie plates and decimate hordes.
Tau can put out a huge number of shots and are typically more mobile than horde armies. With some luck you should be able to outmaneuver your opponent and whittle them down over time.

As a tau player, you have a small arm with 30" of range that's S5 AP5. This is the best anti-horde small arm in the game. Your first problem is that you're probably not bringing enough fire warriors.

Other than that, I've had stealth suits and other burst cannon carriers do some very unkind things to my infantry before.

You say you don't have the money to get what you need to overcome horde armies, just to clarify, what do you have?


FoF, when done right, can be devastating, even without markerlight supports. It should usually always do the trick against massed infantry.

2 full fire warrior units in warfish have a potential to inflict 62 wounds. On average, it will kill 22 orks.
Crisis suits with TL flamers are relatively cheap and can also be devastating to hordes, though they are risky.

I don't like the CIB or AFP personally, they are expensive... I would go with firestorms.

Firestorm crisis suits are probably a very worthy investment. They have:

Burst Cannon
Missile Pod
Multi-Tracker
-50 Points

5 Shots, medium to high range, and the capability to take out light vehicles and medium infantry.

A list like this should do the trick against horde:

Commander
MP/BC/MT
75 Points

Crisis Suits (3)
Mp/BC/MT
150 Points

Crisis Suits (3)
Mp/BC/MT
150 Points

Crisis Suits (3)
Mp/BC/MT
150 Points

Fire Warriors (12)
120 Points

Fire Warriors (12)
120 Points

Pathfinders (6)
Warfish
192 Points

Pathfinders (6)
Warfish
192 Points

Hammerhead
(RG/BC/MT/TL/DP)
170 Points

Hammerhead
(RG/BC/MT/TL/DP)
170 Points

1479 Points

OmegaStriker wrote:So I have consistently lost to horde armies, but dont have the money to buy 1500 more points of horde killers.

I need to know how various things perform in the field. Can anybody describe what it is like to use the airburster or CIB on the tabletop? I can read the codex and rules and statlines and whatnot, and I have a perverted love for markerlights, but what can I do with flamers or the like? I need help overcoming this weakness. I do really well against MEQ's or better, because I have the high powered weapons I need, but what works against 30 sluggas or a horde of gaunts. I can get the rapid fire shots off, and fish of fury sometimes works, and sometimes isn't enough. What can I do?

I don't seem to have this problem with my Iron Hands, but then again they have ROCKET LAUNCHERS!!!

Couple of options for someone with a "perverted love for markerlights." Stealthsuit team of 6 with 12 gun drones. 2 markerlights expended. 18 BS5 S5 shots 15 hit, 12 TL BS 4 S5 shots. 10+ hits. That should put about 18 wounds onto a hoard and still be able to back off so that they can't be charged.

1 HQ XV8 with TL Flamer or Burst cannon and Flamer attached to 10 gun drones. Again expend 2 ML and you should be lighting him up with 8 kills (against T4 orks) plus whatever can be covered by the flamer template.

Or three XV8 with TL Flamers all for less than 100 pts you should be able to get 6 + under a template. So 18 wounds with TL equals 13+ kills.

I don't have any advice for you (sorry) as I'm currently investigating my own Tau force, seen as I very often face Nids I'll be very interested in how this thread develops!

I'm Watching!

Without knowing what you have its hard to say however, some key point

1) Mobilty one of the Tau's biggest things is there abilty to be mobile and keep firepower going down use that to yor advantage always be moveing. give yourself places to run to

2) target priorty one of the most importent things in the game is noing what to shot for Tau take out there mobilty 1st and dont make the mistake of dammeging 2 squads try and kill one.

3) you dont have to kill the hord army you have to complet the misson never forget that. Killpoints play hard to get objectives think about contesting keep him moveing to reduece his firepower etc.

hope this helps if what have you got/ whats your problem? Nids Orks????

Wow thanks for the assistance, fellow Shas'

I'm at school right now, so kind of vague, but this list is roughly what I have:

1 BS Commander

5 Crisis suit, various states of completion, armament varies

15 fire warriors

2 devilfish

5 pathfinders (converted from FW above)

1 hammerhead

2 broadsides

I am planning on filling out more, so what should my next three purchases be? I usually play SM/BA/Ork horde/Eldar but a new guy came in with a Nid swarm army so now there are two hordes and I figure I should just round out my army anyways. I am going to increase most of these. I want more crisis suits, another BS commander, another hammerhead, another broadside, and then I don't know where to go from there. Any ideas?

Railheads are the cure for all horde problems. Bring at least two in your games and you should be good.

The AFP is great IMO, the CIB sucks though. Think of the AFP as a really big flamer with a longer range. Its a little pricy, but not bad for what you get.

Kroot are another good option especially with Hounds. 10 kroot with 10 hound runs 130pts. Park the unit in terrain you know the enemy will be moving toward. Have the kroot shoot until you get charged. The hounds should strike first, then when you get hit remove hounds as casualties, then all the kroot get full attacks. You might lose that assault overall, but the 'leftovers' are now so few your Tau shooting can clear it out in your turn.

Other than that, work on your basic skills, movement blocking with Piranha, buffering with kroot and drones, and building good lists, and you shouldn't have tons of troubles.

As for next purchases, get another Hammerhead first. After that priority should be between suits, Piranha, and more troops (kroot particularly).

No to the CIB and yes to the AFP.

Set up your devilfish as warfish (TA, SMS, DP, MT).

A suit unit with TL BCs and flamers can drop hurt on bunched hordes. Be very aware of your suit units' locations so you can maximize JSJ and even use your devilfish as cover if you need to.

Railhead with submunition rounds works well and use your broadsides to drop transports then pling away at harder targets.

Don't forget your railrifles and carbine equipped pathfinders cause pinning to help slow them down (if you get them below the fearless threshhold).

Future purchase of kroot isn't a bad idea. They're cheap (pointswise), can do some decent shooting and are great counter-chargers vs. orks.

Ditch the Broadsides but you might have know this. I love dual flame thrower monat suits back when I had a tau army. I would recommend them vs anybody. The template = Death when you fight hodes. The hammerhead launching the pie plate of doom is your best friend vs. hordes. Burst cannon stealth suit or crisis suits are great. Twin linked burst cannons are better than BS4 so two of those on the crisis suits and a flamer is good. Dont underestimate drones. Take a few of them with your suits and have an 18" decimation range. If its orks you are fighting (i'm guessing because of the rokkits) shield generators will be temptin but DONT take them. They are way to pricey! take drones and kill them off first. The odds of an ork hitting you is awful. If it is a mech ork speed freak take a Missile Pod and twin Burst Cannon on your suits. Take out the transports and decimate your enemy on foot. Out maneuver them thats what Tau suits do. Ignore objectives until turn 5 and take them and contest them. If you take Fire Warriors take a devil fish to move them away when the enimy gets close. Just skim full peed ahead take a 4+ obscured and 8+ to hit the turn it moves and reposition your Fire Warriors.

Good Luck I love tau and wish I could play them some times. (No one at my FLGS plays them and my little bro stole mine when I "gave up" the hobby three years ago.)

I don't have much experience against hordes but I think a secret weapon could be your gundrones, probably best to use them from vehicles. Your opponent don't see them as a threat but if you're lucky you might be able to pin that giant horde, but at BS 2 markerlight support is probably needed. Once again, I don't have much experience so it's probably best to listen to the other suggestions.

Ever made fun of Guard layers for their flash lights? That is the CIB in a nutshell. It is not even as good as a hot-shot lasgun.

Hammerheads, pathfinders, crisis suits w/flamers...

Whatever you decide to do, DO NOT put flamers on suits. In order to win games you need to have your suits put out more than one turn of shooting. Against just horde armies it can do damage, but not enough to make up for the loss of a suit, and its next to worthless against most other armies. Flamers on suits is just a bad config all the way around.

You really don't need to tailor your list to take on hordes. Tactical adjustments and standard Tau wargear/setups is enough to compensate.

Creeping Dementia wrote:Whatever you decide to do, DO NOT put flamers on suits. In order to win games you need to have your suits put out more than one turn of shooting. Against just horde armies it can do damage, but not enough to make up for the loss of a suit, and its next to worthless against most other armies. Flamers on suits is just a bad config all the way around.

You really don't need to tailor your list to take on hordes. Tactical adjustments and standard Tau wargear/setups is enough to compensate.

I disagree. Your average suit configuration does not produce the necessary volume of fire to take down hordes. If you stay outside of assault range but able to shoot 18" due to JSJ, a 3-man suit unit could only produce 9 shots (MP/PR combo) or 15 shots (MP/BC combo). 1/2 of those shots hit 1/2 again wound...yeah, not many Orks fall. Now, take a barebones 3-man unit with TL flamers and BC or vice versa and you're puting a heck of a hurt on an Ork horde in one turn. Sure, they may die (probably will actually) the next turn but you seriously hurt them, possibly enough to take away their fearless and let the pathfinders due their pinning work which sets up ye olde FoF.

agnosto wrote:
I disagree. Your average suit configuration does not produce the necessary volume of fire to take down hordes. If you stay outside of assault range but able to shoot 18" due to JSJ, a 3-man suit unit could only produce 9 shots (MP/PR combo) or 15 shots (MP/BC combo). 1/2 of those shots hit 1/2 again wound...yeah, not many Orks fall. Now, take a barebones 3-man unit with TL flamers and BC or vice versa and you're puting a heck of a hurt on an Ork horde in one turn. Sure, they may die (probably will actually) the next turn but you seriously hurt them, possibly enough to take away their fearless and let the pathfinders due their pinning work which sets up ye olde FoF.

That unit shooting 9 shots is doing it the whole game, not just one turn, and its a unit that is useful against all armies.

Lets assume that a TL flamer unit flames an ork unit, reasonably well spread out. 6 hits per suit, 18 hits in the unit. 3/4 wound results in 13.5 dead orks. Then the suits die. Realistically you'll get less than 18 hits against a decent ork player, but for the sake of the arguement we'll leave it where it is.

Now take a MP/PR combo team. Shooting for 4 turns, with the last turn being in rapid fire range gives us 39 shots. 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound give 16.2 dead orks. You could argue about cover, but if we're talking about a realistic horde army then there are always units out of cover. Thats not even counting turns 5-6. And not including Kans, Trukks, Nobz, Mega Armored Nobz, or the fact that the suits are good against more armies than just Orks/Nids/DE. MP/BC suits would have even better results against Orks, but aren't quite as useful against MeQ armies.

I guess my experience against Ork bikers and turbo-boost assaulting koptas has taught me that cheap and plentiful is the way to go against orks. Terrain permitting, firewarrior gunline in a building works fairly well with flanking kroot and suits has worked well for me.

Out of 15 suits, I'll have 3 that are tl flamer and the rest as deathrain and/or PR/BC (can't recall what they're called). One cheap suicide unit to put a 1 turn heavy-hurt isn't a waste in my experience. I liken them to the deepstriking fusion-blaster suits I sometimes drop behind an MEQ or Mech GEQ line of advance.

An experienced ork player is going to be making the field really small so if your suits survive 4 turns, he's doing something wrong.

I wouldn't use MP/BC anyway because the ranges are too much of a mismatch, I was just using them as an example of what can produce the most shots.

Creeping Dementia wrote:

agnosto wrote:
I disagree. Your average suit configuration does not produce the necessary volume of fire to take down hordes. If you stay outside of assault range but able to shoot 18" due to JSJ, a 3-man suit unit could only produce 9 shots (MP/PR combo) or 15 shots (MP/BC combo). 1/2 of those shots hit 1/2 again wound...yeah, not many Orks fall. Now, take a barebones 3-man unit with TL flamers and BC or vice versa and you're puting a heck of a hurt on an Ork horde in one turn. Sure, they may die (probably will actually) the next turn but you seriously hurt them, possibly enough to take away their fearless and let the pathfinders due their pinning work which sets up ye olde FoF.

That unit shooting 9 shots is doing it the whole game, not just one turn, and its a unit that is useful against all armies.

Lets assume that a TL flamer unit flames an ork unit, reasonably well spread out. 6 hits per suit, 18 hits in the unit. 3/4 wound results in 13.5 dead orks. Then the suits die. Realistically you'll get less than 18 hits against a decent ork player, but for the sake of the arguement we'll leave it where it is.

Now take a MP/PR combo team. Shooting for 4 turns, with the last turn being in rapid fire range gives us 39 shots. 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound give 16.2 dead orks. You could argue about cover, but if we're talking about a realistic horde army then there are always units out of cover. Thats not even counting turns 5-6. And not including Kans, Trukks, Nobz, Mega Armored Nobz, or the fact that the suits are good against more armies than just Orks/Nids/DE. MP/BC suits would have even better results against Orks, but aren't quite as useful against MeQ armies.

.I still advocate the twin burst cannon units with max gun drones for the 18" decimating shooting phase. Your putting 9 burst cannon shots (75 % hit 66% wound) and 6 pinning test pulse carbine shots (55% hit 66%wound) and missile pods in one squad and flamers in the other. That way you can scorch a unit that gets to close. But if you JSJ this shouldn't happen unless you tacticly intend it to (and I've done this before by having a bate unit ( the one with flamers) and focusing fire on the squad that gets close then finnish them with the flame template). If twin flamers are taken use it in a monat or single man unit. DS him/her behind the ork line and flamwer herass them. It will provide one turn to set up your army.

.I still advocate the twin burst cannon units with max gun drones for the 18" decimating shooting phase. Your putting 9 burst cannon shots (75 % hit 66% wound) and 6 pinning test pulse carbine shots (55% hit 66%wound) and missile pods in one squad and flamers in the other. That way you can scorch a unit that gets to close. But if you JSJ this shouldn't happen unless you tacticly intend it to (and I've done this before by having a bate unit ( the one with flamers) and focusing fire on the squad that gets close then finnish them with the flame template). If twin flamers are taken use it in a monat or single man unit. DS him/her behind the ork line and flamwer herass them. It will provide one turn to set up your army.

I tried that once, but bumping the majority toughness of a suit unit down to 3 went horribly wrong. Not something I'd ever recommend to anyone.

An experienced ork player is going to be making the field really small so if your suits survive 4 turns, he's doing something wrong.

If your suits don't last 4 turns then by definition you've lost the game. No suits left generally means the Tau are done killing stuff = game over for the Tau.

Being toughness 3 isn't bad when you jsj behind cover so they can't see you... and I've done this often vs orks. The boyz just ain't got the guns for the job except the rokkits but they miss most alwayss. The big shoota is something to fear with is 36" range... but still just try to jsj with the cover arround you and you unit should be fine. And a monat with twin flamers is kick orky mushroom bottom. It will make its points before death if used right. Ds and harass the enimy behind with a bc and flamers.

Creeping Dementia I PMed you BTW was wondering if you would like to play a game of warhammer if your near when ill be in utah.

Piranha squadrons are your friend, flat out turn one to block the hordes movement to buy time to shoot them, and front armour 11 should protect you from their small arms fire. When they try to move around you, get in the way again, and if you buy fletchet dischargers, the horde will be reduced to a fine mist if they try to assault you to get you out of the way.

chwheel wrote:Piranha squadrons are your friend, flat out turn one to block the hordes movement to buy time to shoot them, and front armour 11 should protect you from their small arms fire. When they try to move around you, get in the way again, and if you buy fletchet dischargers, the horde will be reduced to a fine mist if they try to assault you to get you out of the way.

Good point about the fletchet dischargers. I saw this used vs Tyrinids and it wiped out half the squad before it could even strike. What is it a 4+ that they take a wound with armor save? I can't remember. When I saw that I was like: "Whoa why didn't I think about that!" because it was such a great tactic! +1... no + 3 to you chwheel

My favoured anti-horde units are railgun hammerheads with burst cannon and stealthsuits. Stealthsuits also give you a bit of additional lee-way by always being in cover if you mess up your ranges and end up being assaulted.

You could add a couple of flamers on Crisis Suits if you wanted, just remember that they should not be the primary weapon of the suit. Keep them at range until the enemy units are pretty well thinned out and only then jump in, flame them and charge any survivors. People keep forgetting that Crisis Suits are actually pretty handy in close assault, as long as you're not charging large squads or specialists. Quite a few attacks and S5. Also Drones quite often hit first

I also abhor the idea of wasting Crisis hardpoints by fitting burst cannon. So many other units in the army can take BCs, while the vast majority of other special weapons can only be pinned to Crisis suits.

Flinty wrote:I also abhor the idea of wasting Crisis hardpoints by fitting burst cannon. So many other units in the army can take BCs, while the vast majority of other special weapons can only be pinned to Crisis suits.

This is true that other units can take suits but I love them... I tend to have a crisis suit army list (like 10 of them including the commander), because my points are tied up here I don't take to many other units with burst cannons. One of my three man squads has twin linked burst cannons and a missile pod (use missile pod on transports and the burst cannons on the unit inside after the transport blows up). I find this a great anti speed freak ork unit.

I'm guessing you use a fireknife (plasma pod multi tracker) most often which is good vs MEQ in transport. This is a tried and test layout but I find a more specialized layout is best. If you want MEQ/TEQ go with a Burning Eye layout (twin plasma with a target array). If your going for anti mech horde the above mentioned configuration (twin linked burst cannons and a missile pod) or a deathrain (twin linked missile pods with burst cannon or flamer). If its about anti foot-slogging horde I would have a Heatwave (twin linked flamer and missile pod) or a Firestorm (burst cannon missile pod and a multi tracker).

Burst cannons are a good weapon and I know you think it is too but it has its place on a battlesuit.

Thought I'd add that I dont use helios suits. THats what broadsides and hammerheads are for.

You can check out my 2000 point battle report where I massacred a 160 man ork horde, with minimum casualties

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/372379.page

The 3 things which worked for me would be

1. Outflanking kroot eat lootas, even if they only eat a gretchin screen, gives the lootas a new target and distracts from more important units

2. Hammerheads make short work of hordes, submunitions are your friend

3. Blocking Piranhas with flechette dischargers, this is the most important way to beat hordes. If they move flat out, then they can be protected by shooting with a 4+ cover. the piranhas wide footprint makes i perfect for blocking a unit, with two stopping foward motion almost completly

my 2 cents

Mythy, that was an amazing batrep. That helped a ton.

I never thought to give my crisis suits two purposes like you did in that battle.

I always go plasma/pod/multi-tracker or twin burst cannon/flamer or something.


I will have to remember the twin pod/ flamer thing, although as you said that got a little dangerous.

Thanks for all the help. I will try and get a game in to practice tactics, but I am extremely busy right now. Stupid real life keeps getting in the way.

OmegaStriker wrote:... I am extremely busy right now. Stupid real life keeps getting in the way.

LOL I'm putting that in my signature.

Jone96 wrote:Hammerheads, pathfinders, crisis suits w/flamers...

How are pathfinders anti-horde?

But IMO hammerheads pie plate and piranhas with flechettes are best we have. (but you shouldnt usually take flechettes)

-unforgiven-

Railheads, the airburster and a team of 5 piranha with flechette is the best the tau got against horde. I really need to pick up 4 more piranha myself, but it works.

That horde of 30 guys attacking you? Give yourself a piranha screen, each model in the unit will take 5 hits wounding on a 4+ and have to save against them before ANY swings are made.