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Hey so ive got my Tau list here and its 197 points shy of 1850, so its at 1653. Im debating on how I should complete it with possibilities listed at the bottom.

Commander and Elites

Shas'el
Cyclic Ion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Drone Controller
2 Shield Drones
125

3 Shas'ui Fire Knife (PR, MP, MT)
186

3 Shas'ui Death Rain (TL MP, FL)
141

3 Shas'ui Helios (PR, FB, MT)
186

Troops
Fire Warriors x6 60
Fire Warriors x6 60
Kroot x12 85

Fast Attack

Path Finders
2 Shas'la Marker Lights
3 Shas'la Rail Rifles
90 points

Devil Fish
Disruption Pod, Decoy Launcher
90 points

Heavy Support

1 Shas'vre Broadside (2 Shield Drones)
Drone Controller, Advanced Stabilisation
1 Shas'ui
Advanced Stabilisation
210
1 Shas'vre Broadside (2 Shield Drones)
Drone Controller, Advanced Stabilisation
1 Shas'ui
Advanced Stabilisation
210
1 Shas'vre Broadside (2 Shield Drones)
Drone Controller, Advanced Stabilisation
1 Shas'ui
Advanced Stabilisation
210

So I was thinking that adding another crisis suit team with TL PR, and a FL would be a good 177 point buy, or TL PR and TA to give the team the same BS as my commander for 195. I dont want any with missile pods or fusion blasters b/c I already have plenty of anti vehicles in the list. I basically want something else to help me take out troops, which is why I figured either add another crisis suit team or add more kroot. but if there is something else then any other opinions would be appreciated

Whooooaaaa hold the phone you've got a ton of points all kinds of crazy (and I just polished off a bottle of merlot, so forgive any misspellings) spent in the heavy support slot. You've got.... six hundred and thirty (630?!) points of heavy support that makes only six broadsides?!

Check this out.

XV88 Broadside La'Rua 285
1x Shas'Ui Team Leader
Bonding Knife, AdvSS, HW TL, HW DC /w 2x SD
2x Shas'Ui Broadsides
AdvSS

285 points per team x2 teams = 570

If you want to strike three different targets, just have each team leader target "target number three" and you've got the same number of broadsides able to shoot at the same number of targets as that craziness that you laid out. Additionally the footprint is smaller, and the survivablility is increased (shield drones).


Okay so check this out. Taking the core of your list and just tweaking a few things this is what I've got @1850:

HQ
Shas'El
CIB, PR, TA, HW MT, MW DC, BK
2x Shield Drones
135

Elites
3 Shas'ui Fire Knife (PR, MP, MT)
186

3 Shas'ui Death Rain (TL MP, FL)
141

3 Shas'ui Helios (PR, FB, MT)
186

Fast Attack
5x Pathfinders
Markerlights
1x Pathfinder Devilfish
SMS, TA, MT, DP
180

Troops
9x Fire Warriors
90 (will ride in Pathfinders Devilfish)

9x Firewarriors
1x Devilfish
SMS, TA, MT, DP
210

Kroot Mercenaries
10x Kroot Carnivores
2x Kroot Hounds
82

Kroot Mercenaries
10x Kroot Mercenaries
70

Heavy Support
Broadside XV88 La'Rua
1x Broadside Team Leader
BK, AdvSS, HW TL, HW DC
2x Broadsides
AdvSS
2x Shield Drones
285

Broadside XV88 La'Rua
1x Broadside Team Leader
BK, AdvSS, HW TL, HW DC
2x Broadsides
AdvSS
2x Shield Drones
285

Comes out to 1849, and it's not a bad list at all. What do you think?

I agree with the list offered. Although I like piranha just for the model, hard to fit in many in a smaller list. Definatley drop the rail riffles, as you want your pathfinders targeting the nastiest thing out there to take out. Your only gonna hit with 2 or 3 in a 5 man squad anyway, 1 or 2 isnt enough, and wont let you remove say ork silly cover saves.

For the most part I really like it, I just made a few minor tweaks. An for the record I would have my pathfinders equipped with only marker lights, its just I bought them with rail rifles equipped to them :/ il just reajust that. heres the new list

1850 Army List

Shas'el
CIB, PR, DC, MT, BK
2 Shield Drones
135

3 Shas'ui Fire Knife
PR, MP, MT
186

3 Shas'ui
TL PR, TA
195

3 Shas'ui Helios
PR, FB, MT
186

Troops
Fire Warriors x9
Devil Fish
DP, DL
180
Fire Warriors x9 90
Kroot x11 77
Kroot x11 77

5 Shas'la Pathfinders
Devil Fish
DP, DL
150

1 Shas'vre Broadside (2 Shield Drones)
Drone Controller, Advanced Stabilisation, BK, TL
2 Shas'ui
Advanced Stabilisation
285
1 Shas'vre Broadside (2 Shield Drones)
Drone Controller, Advanced Stabilisation, BK, TL
2 Shas'ui
Advanced Stabilisation
285

The total comes to 1846 and youll notice I didnt not include the kroot hounds or SMS to my devil fish. I just didnt see them being worth it, and I want my kroot to infilitrate behind the enemy a few turns in. Also I actually thought I was saving points on the broadsides before lol I also got rid of my death rain unit for the TL PR and TA unit so theyd be better at taking out infantry. Sound like a better army?

Kroot Hounds don't cause you to lose infilitrate. Hounds can do everything a Carnivore can, but can't shoot and are better in close combat.

The Krootox keeps your Carnivores from infilitrating (and he sucks)

Carbine = Markerlight. They look almost identical, so if you need to make any adjustments thats the best way.

All of my pathies are firewarriors with carbines and the kneeling legs. No shoulderpad + mod the backpack a little bit = Pathfinders.

That should save you some $$

Also if you get a wild hair and feel like running a sniper team, just convert a kneeling firewarrior with the "tank commander" arms that have the binoculars as the spotter, and then slap on a loose pulse rifle to some gun drones and viola... free sniper team.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well.. sorta free.

haha ya i just realized how to make the cheap pathfinder team, idk why I didnt think about it before. but do you think the crisis suit team with TL PR and TA will do better than the death rain? and il see about getting some kroot hounds then, ive still got like 3 months till the tournament so ive got plenty of time to mess around with the army and test it out

Cottonjaw wrote:Whooooaaaa hold the phone you've got a ton of points all kinds of crazy (and I just polished off a bottle of merlot, so forgive any misspellings)

I got to hand it to you CJ, it doesn't matter what I drink, beer, scotch or wine; I'll end up in a flame war in the YMDC threads and mess up advice here.

Otherwise, good call on straightening the b-side load-outs.

darkcloud92 wrote:An for the record I would have my pathfinders equipped with only marker lights, its just I bought them with rail rifles equipped to them

Your next box of FWs? Equip them with the carbines, cut the pulse rifles' barrel off into rectangles, and you've got PFs with carbines and a thingy on top that looks like the ML.

God, I take a couple weeks off from dakka and people start running CIB's, shield drones and other failsauce. /sigh

DarkCloud, I'll tell you what I tell pretty much all other starting tau players. You have a good framework for your army. Now I'll tell you what I don't tell most starting tau players: you've got the general idea that suits are the way to win with tau. Now we've just got to refine your thinking about the kit on your suits.

First, your HQ. You've a shas'el, so that's one good thing. It's so difficult talking people away from the Shas'o, but I understand that because I ran him myself for so long. The Shas'el is superior for the simple reason that he's cheaper. The bump on the stat doesn't really mean anything for you, because the only stats you care about is the BS, and BS4 is just fine. It's not worth the 25 points just to upgrade to BS5. The one thing you've got wrong is the kit. A lot of new players get caught up in defensive list choices, like shield drones. Tau don't win games by taking defensive choices; they win by taking more guns. So any list choice that doesn't involve more guns should be subject to strict scrutiny.

Here, shield drones just aren't narrowly tailored to fulfill a compelling purpose for the list. They're expensive and all they do is afford the unit an ablative wound that will cause a morale check when it dies. Now, I know what people say, “what about getting shot at by las cannons...” Well let me tell you, if you've got 21 battlesuits and four vehicles and a billion kroot to shoot at, your opponent will be at a loss as to what he should shoot at. Not, he'll probably aim that las cannon at the piranha you should be taking (more on that later). But if he doesn't, then you should be hunkered in cover or behind your kroot shield. In either case, you'll have a cover save so you'll get a save no matter what. Yeah, it does suck if you fail a save and lose a suit to a lascannon. But that's fine, because you have a billion other suits your opponent still has to kill. So do yourself a favor and nix the shield drones. In this list you're taking six. That's 90 points. That's an entire extra broadside battlesuit. Now tell me, which would you rather have: an extra S10 AP1 RNG 72 kick-your-tank-where-the-machine-spirit-don't-shine, or a couple of ablative wounds that you'll have to take morale checks for when they die?

Second, your gear on the HQ is all wrong. As a cardinal rule of the Tau codex, our special wargear sucks. Take the CIB: it's short range and doesn't do anything. Oh sure, it shoots a bunch...of S3 shots...that have a 1 in 6 chance of doing something...for 3 points more than a missile pod...

Finally, bonding knives. I liked them at first too, but at the end of the day, you generally don't have the points to fit them in. In this case, they're a defensive list choice and they're not necessary to your army, so you can afford to lose them.

Moving on to your elite suits. One thing about in general is that we're actually a BS4 army—we just have to pay a premium for it. You can get BS4 fireknives by running HQ's with bodyguards. But you can't really get BS4 elite suits when you run multiple weapon types, so you're pretty much limited to running TL BS4 weapons. The cheapest and most efficient weapon in that category is the missile pod. As another aside, as a tau player you should only ever run missile pods and plasma rifles on your crisis suits. Those are your best options, and they should your only options. The only time when that isn't the case is in weird point level games and weird scenarios like Patrol. So the first thing I recommend is ditching all the weird weapons on your elite suits and replace them with the simplicity of the TL missile pod + targeting array. That gives you a relatively cheap crisis suit (clocks in at 159 points for three). It's also long-range, accurate, and multi-purpose (you send it after light vehicles and infantry). Now, I will admit this leaves you slightly weaker against MEQ's than your current list, as my list leaves you with less AP2 and AP1, but it's offset by the increase in the sheer weight of fire to which you access in my list. Also, if the lack of AP2 does sit well with you, you can just sub out an elite suit squad for another HQ fireknife squad.

Third, your troop choice. First, fire warriors are awful. They're overpriced and severely underpowered. I generally only take one MSU and that's because I have to. Kroot aren't subjectively “good”, but they're better. They're much cheaper than fire warriors and they can get a nifty 2+ cover save in woods. Plus they serve as great bubble wrap (by tau standards). You just stick a majority of the squad in a forest and put your important stuff behind the kroot shield and you're good to go. You can also spread them out to prevent deep striking and you can string them along your table edges to prevent outflanking shenanigans. Also, kroot hounds are strictly better than kroot carnivores (just look at their stat lines—hounds at the same, except they're I5). So you want to take as many hounds as possible. I realize they're a metal model, but I use wargs as counts-as. They're from the LOTR range and you can find them on GW's website. They're about 16.50 for six. Just search for “wargs” under their LOTR range.

As an aside, devilfish are pretty decent tanks, but they're also expensive. If you can afford to give the fire warriors one, it's never a bad idea, but the thing is that a naked devilfish costs the same as a broadside, so I generally just take the extra S10 railgun over the d-fish. If you do run d-fish, the proper kit is either as a warfish (SMART Missile System + Targeting Array + Multi-tracker + D-pod) or stripped-down (just d-pod). So ditch the decoy launchers—they're defensive and they do nothing. While the d-pod is defensive, it also confers a portable cover save, which is huge.

Onto the fast attack slot. You have two viable options here. One is the pathfinder squad. These are expensive since you're forced to take a d-fish, but they're good force multipliers (they make the rest of your army better with their markerlights). However, their use is limited because they're BS3 (so only half of their markerlights will ever hit) and because they're expensive. They're best run in pairs, but they cost so many points because they HAVE to take d-fish. While they're a solid choice, I think piranha are better.

A 2-man Piranha squad kitted out with fusion blasters, targeting arrays, a single d-pod and a single target lock will run you 150 points. They also come with gun drones for free, giving you another great bubble wrap unit that can at least shoot. You use them to manipulate your opponent's movement. Turn one you move them 24” right into your opponent's face. If they survive turn one, you get to move turn two and blow up a tank or two. Right there you've stalled your opponent and disrupted his plans. First, he spent a turn NOT shooting at your suits. Second, if he succeeded, no harm no foul. But if he failed, you get to take a tank or two. In that case, he has to spend another turn shooting at the piranha to kill them. In that case, you're well on your way to winning. (Oh, and don't forget to disembark the gun drones before moving them 24”).

Finally, the heavy support slot. Here I think you're spot on, except for the shield drones and the bonding knives. Get rid of them, and a 3-man broadside squad will only cost you 250 points. Please note, I don't tell you to get rid of the target lock, because you never know when you'll need to split fire. It's there as an “in case” type of thing—not necessarily a default.

Enacting the aforementioned changes, here is what I recommend at 1850:

--HQ-- 2000/2000

1 Shas'el 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
--HW Multi-tracker x2

1 Shas'el 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
--HW Multi-tracker x2

--Elites--

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

--Troops--

6 Fire warriors 60

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
6 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 112
7 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 112
7 Kroot Hounds

--Fast Attack--

2 Piranha 150
-Fusion Blaster x2
-Disruption Pod
-Target Lock
-Targeting Array x2

2 Piranha 150
-Fusion Blaster x2
-Disruption Pod
-Target Lock
-Targeting Array x2

--Heavy Support--

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-A.S.S. x2
-Team Leader
-Target Lock

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-A.S.S. x2
-Team Leader
--Target Lock

This incorporates all of my major changes. While you don't have 6 broadsides, you do have a lot of BS4 plasma and missile pods. This list also gives you more scoring units than your old list has.

However, if you don't like piranha, here is another list running pathfinders.

--HQ-- 1848/1850

1 Shas'el 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
--HW Multi-tracker x2

1 Shas'el 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
--HW Multi-tracker x2

--Elites--

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

--Troops--

6 Fire warriors 60


6 Fire warriors 60

10 Kroot Carnivores 112
7 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
6 Kroot Hounds

--Fast Attack--

8 Pathfinders 96
1 Devilfish 85
-Disruption Pod

7 Pathfinders 84
1 Devilfish 85
-Disruption Pod

--Heavy Support--

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-A.S.S. x2
-Team Leader
-Target Lock

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-A.S.S. x2
-Team Leader
--Target Lock

Hope that helps.

Knute

wow that is quite a different list than the one i have haha. but see I have a problem with it. I dont think bonding knifes are that bad, they are only 5 points are were just an extra points I had left over. I may go with your idea of the kroot hounds and ditch a few FW, but id prefer two teams and two devil fish.

Elites
Im gonna have to disagree on the elite and hq choice selection. Yes I will have 12 crisis suits with your list, however they will be almost worthless besides my commander and body guard. I want to be able to take out other armies infantry and the plasma rifle would be better no? If the missile pod is than I would consider switching them out, tho I would have to say my army would lose a whooole lota style points that way :p but the body guard for the Shas'el is incredibly expensive. especially if I want to make them a strong team. I would rather swap my helios squad for a better crisis suit team thats separate from the leader and then maby take 2 hqs. I could then have each hq join up with and existing team that isnt upgraded to shavre for no reason.

For the troops ive already listed the possible changes above. get rid of a few FW and add some kroot hounds, hopfully in time for the tourny.

With regards to the broadsides I will say this. I can agree that bk and shleid drone seems excessive, but I just want to make sure my units last as long as they can,
that basically sums up my army strategy here is survivability. the only changes I can really see myself making is adding some kroot hounds and swapping the plasma rifles for missile pods if the missile pods are better at taking out infantry. with my list I will have more rail rifles b.c I will have more broadsides and more powerful weapons, also I will (hopfully) have units that last longer. Il try out this list in a few battles and if it dosnt work Il swap out for your strategy of more guns vs less survivability. What your saying makes sense, I just dono if its better yet until I try it out for myself. thank you for the input tho it has given me a lot to think about when revamping my list in the future

Missile pods are great for transports. Thats it. Spamming AP2 is necessary in an MEQ rich enviorment, which most area's are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On top of that, if you don't take shield drones in key units, you are condemning them to failed morale checks and being kindly escorted off the board. There isn't just the "knute" way of doing things. A total of 6 shield drones @ 1850 points aren't frivillous upgrades.

Missile pods are better at killing 4+ armor saves. Where plasma shines is MEQs.. and f!&*@ing deathstar FNP TEQs. Against MEQ and TEQ, the missile pod is a cute little guy who looks really nice on the model.

@ DarkCloud: Bonding knives aren't just 5 points; on elite suits they're actually 10 because you have to purchase the upgrade to team leader to unlock the knives in the first place. As for TL missile pod + targeting array being useless: I know of several unfortunate guard, marine, and Dark Eldar players who would disagree with you based on experience.

Missile pods are better at dealing with infantry (outside of MEQ) than plasma is for two reasons. First, it's longer range. Second, it's Assault 2, so you're always get two shots at 36" rather than having to be 12" away. And trust me, when my suits are only 12" away from an opponent's model, I get nervous unless that unit is dead at the end of my shooting phase.

Missile pod suits are also good against MEQ's because there are always plenty of rhino chassis vehicles at which to shoot. The only MEQ you really have a problem with is Blood Angels. 3+ or 2+ with 4+ FNP is really rough. I found that out the hard way and that's why I doubled the amount of plasma in my list. But you also need missile pods to deal with MC's (like the forthcoming Dreadknight, nids and Daemons). Also, missile pods are great at busting Dark Eldar paper planes. So yeah, missile pods are great at popping transports. It's a good thing there's a crap ton of them in the meta right now. I really don't understand this notion that TL missile pod crisis suits are somehow "subpar."

The problem with a tau strategy of "survivability" is that it isn't. Tau aren't "survivable"; we're glass cannons. We just have to take enough glass cannons to kill enough of the opponent's army that he has difficulty killing ALL of the glass cannons.

To that effect, taking shield drones just doesn't make sense. You still have to take failed morale checks when drones die and you can still run off the table because of it. It also increases your unit size so that the opponent only has to kill one actual suit before your unit can't rally. That actually necessitates taking a bonding knife, so it's not just 6 shield drones, it's also three bonding knives. That's 105 points of useless wargear. Two missile pod elite suits costs 106 points. I'd rather have 4 more S7 RNG 36 shots.

I would also like to point out that in 5 year experience playing tau that I usually never lose my suits to running off the table. If anything, they usually die before they get off the table. So this idea that BK's make your units survivable is fallacious. Also, how close are you to your opponent that they can force a morale check and escort you off the board? If you're that close to your opponent's army, he'll probably just shoot and kill your unit instead of trying to escort it off the table. But I can count on two hands the number of times I've had a crisis suit unit run off the table because of a failed morale check.

As for deathstar FNP TEQs (which I understand is Terminator Equivalent), you're right. That's where plasma shines. But my list has more accurate plasma than his does. So even though I only have six plasma rifles where he has 10, I would bet money that my six plasma rifles kill as much as his does. Plus, even FNP termies die to autocannon shots.

Finally, you're Cotton, there isn't just the "knute" way to do things. There's the Knute way, and then there's the wrong way...

@Dark Cloud: I'm glad I could help. You ever need more advice just PM me.

Hope that helps,

Knute

The most pompous post of the year award goes to.... Well actually thats not even close to some of the nerd pedestal droth I have read on here, but it's still pretty bad.

Riddle me this, oh hater of shield drones, so some cheap-o space wolf squad with a missle launcher scores a krak missile wound against your droneless suits. Instant death from one shot, no armor save, close to 1/3 of the time you're going to fall back 3d6, which can get extremely ugly.

Or, for 15 points each, you can save that same squad from taking ANY damage at all on a 4+ or merely losing a drone on 1-3. No morale test necessary. Any shooting that would cause me to take invulnerable saves would more than likely instantly vaporize your squad.

And no. FNP termies do not die to autocannon shots. You're praying for ONES and ONLY ONES on the armor save... and only HALF of your wounds will cause a wound. Now imagine it's grey knight paladins... great.. you've caused A WOUND. Only 22 more shooting phases and you'll cause a morale check! (maybe).

Most pompous post of the year? Have you not heard of YTTH? :-p

Riddling away: first, I keep my suits behind my kroot shield so I at least get a cover save against the krak missile. Second, if he's shooting at my suits, he isn't shooting at my piranhas that are currently in his face about to wreck his parking lot. Third, if he does kill my drones and I fail my morale check, I'll still fall back 3d6. You're right, that's ugly. But by my way, at least I didn't spend 35 points on useless wargear that just caused my unit to run off the table.

My theory, and I think this has played out across my games, is that more guns will make up for a little less survivability. Because, let's face it: trying to make tau more survivable is like trying to polish a turd. As much as you try, it just won't work.

Here's the situation: if you take defensive upgrades, like shield drones, you are theoretically making your units more survivable, in that you're less likely to lose real guns to high-strength low-ap weaponry. But, if you're taking shield drones and bonding knives, that means you're not taking as many suits in toto (for a little Latin lingo there). So while your suits are more "survivable" there's also fewer of them. That makes it easier for your opponent to concentrate firepower on them. On the other hand, if you don't take defensive upgrades and you only take more suits, you end up with "less survivable" suits, but more units in toto. because you have more units, your opponent can't concentrate firepower as easily. While you may lose a suit here or there, it's less likely your opponent can just "leaf blower" you off the table.

So there's a natural tension: fewer suits but more defensive upgrades = harder to kill, but fewer suits, making it easier to concentrate firepower on what suits you have v. more suits, fewer upgrades = easier to kill, more suits, harder to concentrate firepower. I think both are equally survivable. If that's the case, then I'd rather err on the side of more guns.

As for autocannons killing FNP termies: I know it's hard to do. Ok, it's darned near impossible to do. But I'm not going to gimp my list versus the whole rest of the field just because I'm afraid of one list of Blood Angels. I'd rather run a balanced list than try to hedge my list to beat BA while losing to the rest of the field.

Knute wrote:Most pompous post of the year? Have you not heard of YTTH? :-p

Riddling away: first, I keep my suits behind my kroot shield so I at least get a cover save against the krak missile. Second, if he's shooting at my suits, he isn't shooting at my piranhas that are currently in his face about to wreck his parking lot. Third, if he does kill my drones and I fail my morale check, I'll still fall back 3d6. You're right, that's ugly. But by my way, at least I didn't spend 35 points on useless wargear that just caused my unit to run off the table.

My theory, and I think this has played out across my games, is that more guns will make up for a little less survivability. Because, let's face it: trying to make tau more survivable is like trying to polish a turd. As much as you try, it just won't work.

Here's the situation: if you take defensive upgrades, like shield drones, you are theoretically making your units more survivable, in that you're less likely to lose real guns to high-strength low-ap weaponry. But, if you're taking shield drones and bonding knives, that means you're not taking as many suits in toto (for a little Latin lingo there). So while your suits are more "survivable" there's also fewer of them. That makes it easier for your opponent to concentrate firepower on them. On the other hand, if you don't take defensive upgrades and you only take more suits, you end up with "less survivable" suits, but more units in toto. because you have more units, your opponent can't concentrate firepower as easily. While you may lose a suit here or there, it's less likely your opponent can just "leaf blower" you off the table.

So there's a natural tension: fewer suits but more defensive upgrades = harder to kill, but fewer suits, making it easier to concentrate firepower on what suits you have v. more suits, fewer upgrades = easier to kill, more suits, harder to concentrate firepower. I think both are equally survivable. If that's the case, then I'd rather err on the side of more guns.

As for autocannons killing FNP termies: I know it's hard to do. Ok, it's darned near impossible to do. But I'm not going to gimp my list versus the whole rest of the field just because I'm afraid of one list of Blood Angels. I'd rather run a balanced list than try to hedge my list to beat BA while losing to the rest of the field.

1. It's not just blood angels anymore. The flavor of the month is Grey Knights. The flavor of last month was blood angels, the flavor of the month before that was logan wing. There are A LOT of terminator armor and FNP out there and gearing to kill them is damned important.

2. How does the wargear "cause" me to fall back off the table? It makes it less likely to happen. 3 suits + 2 drones = 5 units. one dies no test, two dies test but still regroup (above 50%). 3 suits, one dies needs test, two dies no chance for regroup.

3. Everyone Kroot screens, moot point. You can't always rely on your kroot for bubble wrap. Sometimes they are taking objectives. Sometimes they are speedbumping an impending assault.

4. Your 1850 fields exactly two more suits than the list I suggest. Not exactly a massive amount of target saturation, like you describe. 4 wounds at best, but because of lack of shield drones they will probably be instant deathed by lascannons/missilelaunchers/ EML ... need I continue?

5. You really never need autocannon spam. A squad of death rains is disgustingly effective at popping transports. We all know this, it's why we take them. Why do my Broadside team leaders have target locks? To support transporting killing if neccessary. Hell, theres rarely AV13 or 14 I won't sacrifice a turn of eating shots from (because I can, because I have shield drones) so that I can ensure all the assault unit laden transports are dead. Unless it's a land raider full of terminators, which brings you riiiiight back to TEQ killiness...

darkcloud92 wrote:With regards to the broadsides I will say this. I can agree that bk and shleid drone seems excessive, but I just want to make sure my units last as long as they can

... and the SDs will help in that regard. I quite disagree with knute on nixing SDs for b-sides, darkcloud92. Stick with the b-sides, team leader, 2 SDs, and you'll be happier. They'll actually see Turn 3.

I don't put SDs on my XV8s, though, preferring to rely on JSJ for safety.

I would agree with Brother Erekose on this, sorry Knute.

You say that Tau players should spend all of their points maximizing firepower... but there are cases where this shouldn't be followed, ie, where there are upgrades that can keep your units alive much longer.

The shield-drone is not that many points, and can keep your 80 point broadside alive for a lot longer.


I think that more firepower makes up for a "little survivability"... I think you have those terms backwards. For 1 average broadside, you can have about 7 shield drones, which WILL keep your broadsides alive much longer.

It is giving up "a lot of survivability" for "a little more firepower"

1 railgun isn't worth 6 shield drones to keep your other broadsides alive... with the possible exception of you not having enough points at all for them.

Knute, consider this: You equate Tau with a 'glass cannon.' I think that title belongs to DE. See, DE are the glass cannon because they *can't* survive a round of shooting (generally); notoriously their Raiders & Ravagers, and the infantry can't take getting shot up either (I'm playing DE now, so I know). Glass, easily broken.

They get to do their thing during h2h, trashing on your turn *and* the enemy's. If those wyches/incubi get lose on the enemy's turn to be shot at; well that's gonna be some dead emo-elves. That's why the smart DE player keeps them in h2h.

Tau though, not built for h2h, *have* to be able to survive a round of enemy fire. DE will 'clinch up' like a boxer to prevent this, Tau don't have that option. So, not quite the glass cannon, since the SDs toughen our army up, or, at least b-sides, against return fire. Crisis Suits are nearly MEqs, just being low in Init & WS, not Armor Save, STR or T.

Tau have, arguably, the best tank in 40k. A built in Cover Save, great Nose armor near the top AV, and good D against assault (Flechettes), not to mention the best gun in 40k.

Tau have the tie for first/second best transport in 40k: the D'fish (WaveSerpent). Again, the Cover Save, good Nose armor AV. and all that. Warfish?

Far more a solid cannon than glass. Simply one that doesn't hold up under assault.

I don't know what metaphor to use, but it ain't "glass cannon". Maybe Paper-mache cannon? Rice paper? Yeah, that's good. It can get blown around by the wind and survive, but touch it once ....

Right, not saying load up your elites with SDs and BKs but definitely the commander and the broadsides, since they will be targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoa... whoa whoa whoa whoa. Hold the phone. Stop the presses. Pull the chutes John Force. Pump the brakes fire starter. Insert phrase meaning "hold on.".

Are you complaining that we are wasting points on shield drones when you have 4 bodyguards and a second commander in the list you propose before filling out your elites slots!? Thats like... fundamental Tau list building, man! Pure shenanigans.

Where do you get off with this "I take one week off from Dakka..." stuff? Take another week off. We're fine over here. World kept turning.

Nah man, but I'm not trying to flame war. Obviously we just have different opinions from you, Knute, so just do your thing, but you have to understand that a lot of us have been playing Tau for a long time too. I bought 2 or 3 boxes on the week Tau were released. I ran an old school gunline list at tournaments. Just because you take an unorthodox approach to being effective with Tau, doesn't mean it's "It's the Knute way, or the wrong way" and it definitely doesn't mean it's a strategy that a brand new Tau player should adopt.

In short: Agree to disagree.

I won't beat a dead horse, but I call 'em as I see 'em. I ran shield drones for a long time myself, and it took a friend beating me over and over before I realized I wasn't getting anywhere with them. Now that I've ditched defensive list choices like shield drones, I win more games. While I do lose more suits to ID than I did before, the effect isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Even in games that I lose soundly, and against armies with plenty of S8 and 9 and AP1 and AP2, my suits are still the last thing to die. That leads me to believe they aren't necessary to a good tau list, especially because they take up points that could be spent on guns.

That's the basis of my statements and I think it's the right way to go with tau. I know a lot of people on dakka don't agree with me, but I think presenting a view opposed to the site's conventional wisdom is good for everyone.

A couple other points. First, while my list only has 2 more suits, it also has more kroot and four piranha. My alternate list also runs more bodies. In short, my lists have more stuff all around to shoot at. So just because I only have 2 more SUITS to shoot at, doesn't mean I'm not still fielding more stuff IN GENERAL to shoot at. If run properly, the suits in my list shouldn't be shot at until at least turn two, hopefully turn three, and I'll be getting cover saves because I'm behind my kroot shield.

Finally, @Cotton: my bodyguards shoot guns at BS4. Shield drones don't. The comparison is folly. I run the second HQ unit because I wanted a second fireknife unit at BS4.

oh ya I would have to say without a doubt some of the information or at least the principal behind your help can be very useful. that its important to remember not to waste points on frivolous items like the Shaso or sharper and such. your logic apply quite well to the people that want to beef up their units to far and say buy a commander for each of their crisis suit teams, or equip shield drones to everything, etc. id just say mby its a bit to extreme at times in your list. as said before agree to disagree on some things

As long as I can help out

It's what I'm here for.