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With the impending arrival of the Venom model, looking at the Codex when should you take a Venom over a Raider?

Raider can carry the Dark Lance - our primary AT weapon, I like to have as many of these as possible because Anti-Infantry is usually not a problem for DE.
Venom - 2 splinter cannons + flickershields, only 5 man carrying capacity. The thing is I would prefer a DL right?

I've heard Venoms were better for 5 man trueborn squads or Incubi but how? They seem exactly the same as a Raider.

Thoughts?

DorianGray wrote:With the impending arrival of the Venom model, looking at the Codex when should you take a Venom over a Raider?

Raider can carry the Dark Lance - our primary AT weapon, I like to have as many of these as possible because Anti-Infantry is usually not a problem for DE.
Venom - 2 splinter cannons + flickershields, only 5 man carrying capacity. The thing is I would prefer a DL right?

I've heard Venoms were better for 5 man trueborn squads or Incubi but how? They seem exactly the same as a Raider.

Thoughts?

Duality. A small unit toting dark light weapons is good against one type of unit, tanks and elite units. Where do you make up for lost anti infantry? venoms. So one compact unit + transport that can handle every unit type in the game? Yes please.

Raider are better for anti infantry squads for the same reason.

venoms are awesome anti-infantry, are cheaper than raiders, and come with a FF base. I use 2 for trueborn squads; it gives you nice dakka to throw down range. They also eat devestator/longfang packs!

I believe in making my opponent make as many armor saves as possible.

My army build (at 1850) is 6 venoms and a Raider.

3 squads of 4 trueborns, each with a Haemonculus, all 4 trueborns carrying blasters and haywire grenades

2 squads of 4 warriors and a sybarite, there is a blaster in each of the warrior squads as 1 in 5 may swap out for one.

1 squad of 4 wyches and a hekatrix in a venom .

1 squad of 7 wyches and a hekatrix in a raider with the FF purchased.

3 ravagers with 3 DL's.

that gives you:

10 Dark lances, that can fire at 4 different targets with range 36.

14 Blasters (range 18 Dark lances) that can fire at 5 different targets.

6 sets of twin splintercannnons, so 6 separate targets are getting 12 shots with 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound.

So, that's 72 anti-infantry dice hitting the table and 24 anti-armor dice hitting the table. (that's not counting the almost sure-fire effect of the Haywires when the trueborns get in HTH) Each venom also is a 'bubble' for your troops with the flickerfield giving the squad a 5+ invul save. Not awesome.. but it has proven to be useful. The blaster range of 18 is not bad, since you're going to be in that range for the most part anyway. At least, I do.

So, I prefer the venoms to the Raiders for the firepower, (more dice) and the spread of targets for my opponent, making him have to choose where his shots are going. I feel thati t helps offset the fact that hits are almost sure to damage something.

DorianGray wrote:With the impending arrival of the Venom model, looking at the Codex when should you take a Venom over a Raider?

Raider can carry the Dark Lance - our primary AT weapon, I like to have as many of these as possible because Anti-Infantry is usually not a problem for DE.
Venom - 2 splinter cannons + flickershields, only 5 man carrying capacity. The thing is I would prefer a DL right?

I've heard Venoms were better for 5 man trueborn squads or Incubi but how? They seem exactly the same as a Raider.

Thoughts?

Venoms are smaller(at least that is what the description says) so you can model them as such and they are thus easier to hide.

There is such a thing as too much Darklight, especially against green tide like armies. Why do .5 wounds when you could be doing 4 wounds?

SC shoot out a lot of shots, who cares if those longfangs are in 3+ cove. Kill a few with the SC on a venom. Shooting a few DL at them wont do much.

Using 5-man Warrior squads with a blaster also gives you compact, fast, scoring units. That way you can flat out the last turn of the game in multiple directions to claim objectives and win.

It also increases the amount of targets your opponent has to split fire between since they are far cheaper squads.

And I have also noticed that my one venom I run right now is almost always ignored for a turn or two because of it s size in favor of the Raiders or large units on foot, even though it usually houses one of my more deadly units. Always a plus!

If you want some better break-downs:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/356476.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/326407.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/346755.page
(Keep in mind that some of the opinions listed are dated, but overall I found these very useful!)

Also, all of the venom's weapons are splinter (rifle and cannon) so the venom can move 12" and fire all its weapons (they are strength 'X' so count as defensive).

time wizard wrote:Also, all of the venom's weapons are splinter (rifle and cannon) so the venom can move 12" and fire all its weapons (they are strength 'X' so count as defensive).

No no no. Venoms are 65 points plus upgrades and come with two splinter cannons.

DraconicGuardian wrote:
No no no. Venoms are 65 points plus upgrades and come with two splinter cannons.

A gazzillion times this

DraconicGuardian wrote:

time wizard wrote:Also, all of the venom's weapons are splinter (rifle and cannon) so the venom can move 12" and fire all its weapons (they are strength 'X' so count as defensive).

No no no. Venoms are 65 points plus upgrades and come with two splinter cannons.

ya rly. Why would anyone take them without the second cannon? I always take my non-troops choices in venoms. Incubi, Trueborn, wracks, whatever. They come out at five points cheaper than a raider with a FF, and pack 12 shots

By the way, I have to say that all of you that run trueborn with hamonuculis are unaware of how big of a waste of points that is. You're giving a unit thats only purpose is to shoot FNP? Why? So they can last like one more turn? I would never dream of running trueborn in anything except this:
x5 Trueborn, x2 Cannons, x3 Carbines, Venom with Double Cannons-> 160 points
Rather than...
x4 Trueborn, x4 Carbines, Haemonculi, venom with two cannons ->170 something

Samus_aran115 wrote:

DraconicGuardian wrote:

time wizard wrote:Also, all of the venom's weapons are splinter (rifle and cannon) so the venom can move 12" and fire all its weapons (they are strength 'X' so count as defensive).

No no no. Venoms are 65 points plus upgrades and come with two splinter cannons.

ya rly. Why would anyone take them without the second cannon? I always take my non-troops choices in venoms. Incubi, Trueborn, wracks, whatever. They come out at five points cheaper than a raider with a FF, and pack 12 shots

I think all y'all misunderstood me.
I didn't say the linked splinter rifle and one cannon is how I would take them, or even how they should be kitted out.
I said that all their splinter weapons were defensive so all could fire.

Samus_aran115 wrote:By the way, I have to say that all of you that run trueborn with hamonuculis are unaware of how big of a waste of points that is. You're giving a unit thats only purpose is to shoot FNP? Why? So they can last like one more turn? I would never dream of running trueborn in anything except this:
x5 Trueborn, x2 Cannons, x3 Carbines, Venom with Double Cannons-> 160 points
Rather than...
x4 Trueborn, x4 Carbines, Haemonculi, venom with two cannons ->170 something

If you are running shooty mech and have no or few CC squads I can see giving them a pain token. Especially if they have blasters.

Venoms are great answers for things like Devastators, Long Fangs, etc., as well as tearing up infantry from transports. The "free" Flickerfield also gives you the freedom to use it as a roaming cover save to protect Ravagers, etc., since it has its own invulnerable save. The other part is gunning down MCs from 36"+move with poison weapons is very satisfying.

Venoms are great with small units such as Trueborn or even small Warrior squads. Hell, 5 dudes with just splinter rifles and a twin SC Venom is a nice anti-infantry platform. Give them a blaster and you have double duty for cheap.

With the impending arrival of the Venom model, looking at the Codex when should you take a Venom over a Raider?

Am I mistaken or has GW not actually released anything stating that Venoms will actually be in the second wave. As far as I know, it is speculation. I could be wrong, though. Anybody got a link to an official source? Or better yet, pictures?

It's been pretty much confirmed they are coming out in June. Every rumour is saying this. Also people have seen the sprues.

Kurce wrote:

With the impending arrival of the Venom model, looking at the Codex when should you take a Venom over a Raider?

Am I mistaken or has GW not actually released anything stating that Venoms will actually be in the second wave. As far as I know, it is speculation. I could be wrong, though. Anybody got a link to an official source? Or better yet, pictures?

Actually, in an interview in WD back when the first releases hit Jes himself said it was already done along with the Wych "hangers on".

It's been pretty much confirmed they are coming out in June. Every rumour is saying this. Also people have seen the sprues.

Yeah, and there were a million confirmed rumors about the Tyranids codex and we all saw how that turned out.

Actually, in an interview in WD back when the first releases hit Jes himself said it was already done along with the Wych "hangers on".

Ahh, okay. That is good then. Although, I don't know what Wych "hangers on" are...

Kurce wrote:

Ahh, okay. That is good then. Although, I don't know what Wych "hangers on" are...

That was how he referred to the hanging crew, like the ones on the Raider. Only the ones on the Venom will be Wych models instead.

DraconicGuardian wrote:

Kurce wrote:

Ahh, okay. That is good then. Although, I don't know what Wych "hangers on" are...

That was how he referred to the hanging crew, like the ones on the Raider. Only the ones on the Venom will be Wych models instead.

which is comical because wyches need to be in squads of 6 or more, usually 7 to be effective. Warriors on the other hand often get fielded in squads of 5. Wyches in raiders and warriors in Venoms.

Exergy wrote:

DraconicGuardian wrote:

Kurce wrote:

Ahh, okay. That is good then. Although, I don't know what Wych "hangers on" are...

That was how he referred to the hanging crew, like the ones on the Raider. Only the ones on the Venom will be Wych models instead.

which is comical because wyches need to be in squads of 6 or more, usually 7 to be effective. Warriors on the other hand often get fielded in squads of 5. Wyches in raiders and warriors in Venoms.

Not so. Small wych squads are still fairly effective, "depending on what you're using them for". If you take 5 bare wyches and equip them with haywire grenades, with no other upgrades, you have 60 points that are going to knock out a vehicle, period. Larger squads do work better, but if you don't have the points available, this is a very good tactic.

On topic:
One very good tactic (I use it myself) is taking a MSU force. Basically, you break the squads down as small as they'll go and make them as effective as possible. For instance, taking 5 x warriors, with 1 blaster in a venom w/ an upgraded spl. cannon. 125 points. You have, AT, you have long ranged anti infantry shots, and you have a scoring unit, inside of a transport that can move 24" and comes standard with an invulnerable save.

By using venoms, you spend less points. You create more targets than the enemy can shoot at, thus automatically saving lives. You have a 36" range, not including the 12" move you get that can keep you out of harms way while still pummeling the enemy, making them take saves.

Raiders, imho, should really only be used when you really want to field more than 5 models in the squad, such as a larger wych squad. Otherwise, the venom is just too good to pass up.

Exergy wrote:
which is comical because wyches need to be in squads of 6 or more, usually 7 to be effective. Warriors on the other hand often get fielded in squads of 5. Wyches in raiders and warriors in Venoms.

Meh. It s not that big a deal. The hanging crew are all over ebay if you need more than the swap outs you will be doing from raider to venom and vice versa. As I am sure the Wych ones will also be.

And yes, a 5 man Wych squad in a Venom can still be effective as well. More as a surgical unit for removing smaller specialized units, or as "suicide bombers" if you give em haywires. Though I would probably try to use that kind of unit on far-flung vehicles on the flanks or ones right near other units you have already engaged to hopefully get some mileage out of the points you pay for them.

I've had a fair amount of success using mass venoms in a gunline list. Yes, DE are good at killing infantry - so take more venoms to be great at killing infantry. Play to your strengths. DE already are poor at taking out mass armor - adding 4-6 dark lances isn't going to help. As others have said, venoms provide firepower, mobility, and protection for relatively little points. I think they are the single best unit in the Dark Eldar codex.

i like to run 4-5 trueborn with 4 blasters in a venom. doing this 3 times gives me 36 splinter shots, plus another 12 blaster shots. it basically turns the venom into a shorter ranged ravager. and TBH there is never a thing as "too much darklight". if all the enemy tanks are dead, then those blasters make mush outa anything not packing an invun, or in cover. and even then its often save or be insta gibbed.

DarthSpader wrote:i like to run 4-5 trueborn with 4 blasters in a venom. doing this 3 times gives me 36 splinter shots, plus another 12 blaster shots. it basically turns the venom into a shorter ranged ravager. and TBH there is never a thing as "too much darklight". if all the enemy tanks are dead, then those blasters make mush outa anything not packing an invun, or in cover. and even then its often save or be insta gibbed.

I guess you havent played foot guard or green tide recently. using blasters and DL to kill guardsmen, even heavy weapon teams is a waste.

Exergy wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:i like to run 4-5 trueborn with 4 blasters in a venom. doing this 3 times gives me 36 splinter shots, plus another 12 blaster shots. it basically turns the venom into a shorter ranged ravager. and TBH there is never a thing as "too much darklight". if all the enemy tanks are dead, then those blasters make mush outa anything not packing an invun, or in cover. and even then its often save or be insta gibbed.

I guess you havent played foot guard or green tide recently. using blasters and DL to kill guardsmen, even heavy weapon teams is a waste.

Note that he *did* say after all the tanks are dead...
When all your priority targets are down, what else ya gonna shoot them at? :-P Personally though, I run them as 5-man squads in a dual SC Venom with 3 blasters, 2 SCs and haywires. There is nothing that unit cannot seriously put a dent in. And it s 195 points.

Exergy wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:i like to run 4-5 trueborn with 4 blasters in a venom. doing this 3 times gives me 36 splinter shots, plus another 12 blaster shots. it basically turns the venom into a shorter ranged ravager. and TBH there is never a thing as "too much darklight". if all the enemy tanks are dead, then those blasters make mush outa anything not packing an invun, or in cover. and even then its often save or be insta gibbed.

I guess you havent played foot guard or green tide recently. using blasters and DL to kill guardsmen, even heavy weapon teams is a waste.

Blasters and DL vs guardsmen is a bit of a waste..which is what makes the twin splintercannons that are *with* them on the venom effective. 36 anti-infantry dice hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+.. and that's just from the 3 elite squads. Add to that 5 more venoms with wyches or warriors... another 60 anti-infantry dice. ..

That's the advantage of the venom over the raider. 12 shots of anti-infantry vs 1 anti-tank from the raider's darklance. (or 3 anti-infantry from the Disintegrator cannon) Let a warrior carry a blaster and you still have the armor-cracking power of the Raider, just at closer range, just more shots coming in.