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Now I've been going through the army list section and I'm seeing a lot of the same themes throughout - a lot of people build their lists with an emphasis on assault. The old Daemonhunter codex was more of a shooty army than an assault one. My question to you is....has that changed at all? Are the new Grey Knights better as a shooty build with counter-assault capability or as an assault build with a little shooting before the inevitable assault? Which is the more competitive build for the new knights? Now saying that they can do both is an acceptable answer, however, the builds I see tend to lean towards one side or the other.

BTW, my take on the GK's is that they are still primarily a shooty army.

Discuss.

I personally feel that they're more versatile than the old codex (from what I've seen anyway), but they focus more heavily on shooting.

Of course, they still destroy stuff like MCs and regular infantry in close combat, especially if you invest a few points in halberds and daemon hammers.

The main weakness I've seen/read about so far is that the cost/lost-model is much higher than for other armies - even other MEQs. So against armies that can out-shoot GKs and/or effectively keep them at arm's length (depending on the GK list of course) GKs will have a a tougher battle.

Enough Razorbacks and Psyriflemen can really negate this weakness though.

While I did have some success in cc with them, I've also had my share of failure in assault with them.

- my powers got shut down in 2 games against eldar and 1 game against tyranids (when I was in Shadows range). Other MEQ armies have psychic hoods that make hammerhand, cleansing flame, heroic sacrifice and force weapons less reliable in combat as well.

- the drop in # of attacks and decrease in WS really makes them not ideally suited to fight against hordes or units with high volume of attacks (i.e. genestealers, orks, berserkers, daemons, etc.). They just cannot compete in assault against dedicated assault units. I even lost in combat with my 10-man interceptor squad to a unit of 24 kroots! Of course it might have been different had I used purifiers, but then he might have just rapid-fired me instead of charging.

- against some armies - guardsmen, tau, MSU-units, the GK assault capabilities is just overkill. Yes, kill the unit but then you left left out in the open to get shot to death.

- I just cannot reliably take down mech with just moving psycannons and assault. While my psycannons have taken down vehicles before (but it is shooting), assaulting vehicles with S5 attacks hitting on 6's due to cruising speed has not yielded me any good results so far.

Xca|iber wrote:I personally feel that they're more versatile than the old codex (from what I've seen anyway), but they focus more heavily on shooting.

Of course, they still destroy stuff like MCs and regular infantry in close combat, especially if you invest a few points in halberds and daemon hammers.

The main weakness I've seen/read about so far is that the cost/lost-model is much higher than for other armies - even other MEQs. So against armies that can out-shoot GKs and/or effectively keep them at arm's length (depending on the GK list of course) GKs will have a a tougher battle.

Enough Razorbacks and Psyriflemen can really negate this weakness though.

I agree with the above. Played a game against BA, shot his army to pieces, table him on turn 6. Yet my own army was reduced to just the Grand Master 4 paladins, and 1 strike squad guy holding a cannon, 3 dreads, 2 razorbacks. All my other infantry was dead. His assault units had mauled me pretty bad, but my fire support units and squad cannons killed all of his anti tank ability so fast he didn't really have much chance. I didn't fare too well in assault due to the enemy having way more CC attacks, but my shooting was far superior.

Against a marine gunline, I think I would be barely be outshot, but I would be better than him in assault.

The one thing I think that makes GKs even viable against real gunlines like IG or tau, is the fact that pretty much the entire army can DS, and they have multiple tools that can remove/decrease scatter. They also can affect reserve rolls, which is pretty important. Dropping down into assault range only gives your opponent 1 turn to shoot at you, compared to at least 2 by going across the board.

I feel like halberds can make them more cc able, but generally agree with the focus on shooting.

You've got to take a mixed arms approach (shooting and assault). You're not going to out-shoot shooty armies or out-fight fighty armies.

GKs can, and do, do both effectivly.


they are a Water army. they can react to which tactic is the best in the situation.


if you are facing an army that is better in CC you will try and shoot them up as much as you can. then, once they are dwindled, you can assault the remnants.

examples: Khorne Zerker spam, Greentide, Nids.

you do the Stormbolter shuffle to get 3 turns of deadly shooting(more deadly now that Psycannons are rending)



against shooty armies, you will try and get into assault(much easier now that Gks have access to Transports and Jump Infantry)

Examples: IG, T'au, shooty marines.


GKs can do both without changing their army list

They're a shooting army that can fight whatever survives to make it to them.

I agree that they are a "Water" army and that it's best to play them reactively. However, what I don't agree with is that they can do both without changing their army list. It all depends on how the list is built and that's what will determine how they are going to be played. If you build a list that is balanced with equal parts shooting and assault (and mobility), then you have the flexibility of playing it either ways. However, a lot of lists I see aren't built that way.

Take for example, these 2 extremes.


Grey Knights 2K #1 - Assaulty
Draigo
5x Paladins /psycannon + other stuff
5x Paladins /psycannon + other stuff
Strike Squad w/psycannon - Rhino
Storm Raven
Storm Raven
Dreadknight - Personal Teleporter + 1 gun
Dreadknight - Personal Teleporter + 1 gun


Grey Knights 2K #2 - Shooty
Coteaz
Shooty Vendread
Shooty Vendread
Shooty Vendread
Warrior Acolytes w/3 meltas in Chimera
Warrior Acolytes w/3 meltas in Chimera
Warrior Acolytes w/3 plasmas in Chimera
Warrior Acolytes w/3 plasmas in Chimera
5x Strike Squad w/psycannon in rhino/razorback
5x Strike Squad w/psycannon in rhino/razorback
Shooty dread
Shooty dread
Shooty dread


Honestly, neither are really balanced lists and neither are water lists. List #1 doesn't really have the option to shoot and list #2 doesn't really have the option to assault. Neither lists are very flexible, however, which do you think will do better? My money is on the shooty one.

The can be geared to do either very effectively while still being competent in the other.

Paladins are easily the scariest close-combat unit in the game, and Purifiers, Psyriflemen, and the Vindicare are all insanely good ranged options as well.

jy2 wrote:
Honestly, neither are really balanced lists and neither are water lists. List #1 doesn't really have the option to shoot and list #2 doesn't really have the option to assault. Neither lists are very flexible, however, which do you think will do better? My money is on the shooty one.

Posting two crap lists doesn't really prove the point either way. It's possible to build a fundamentally bad list that doesn't shoot or assault well. Good GK lists are very probably going to be a mixture of both, with an over-emphasis on shooting more than likely due to low model count and a need to hold its own at ranged before getting up close.

If you drop the vendreads and make them Purifiers, then you got some "shootas with choppas and choppas with shooters. For the points though, you'd get like one full squad and a 5 man one, IIRC.

sourclams wrote:

jy2 wrote:
Honestly, neither are really balanced lists and neither are water lists. List #1 doesn't really have the option to shoot and list #2 doesn't really have the option to assault. Neither lists are very flexible, however, which do you think will do better? My money is on the shooty one.

Posting two crap lists doesn't really prove the point either way. It's possible to build a fundamentally bad list that doesn't shoot or assault well. Good GK lists are very probably going to be a mixture of both, with an over-emphasis on shooting more than likely due to low model count and a need to hold its own at ranged before getting up close.

Yet, that is representative of a lot of lists that I am seeing out there. I look at them and I just frown at the imbalance of many of those lists. I agree that a good GK list needs a balance of the 2, but I am just not seeing it in a lot of lists. Rather, while they may not be as extreme as my examples, they tend to go 1 way or the other.

BTW, don't be too quick to judge. List #2, though it isn't really balanced, is a very strong list, incorporating many of the facets of MSU-lists. As with almost all MSU-lists, they are high in KP's and suck balls in assault, but they will shoot the crap out of most armies.

To me, GKs seem to be stuck square in the SW niche. This is to say that they are a medium range army. They can be built to rock at shooty and be good at stabby, but with their plethora of 24" weapons, this is where they should excel.

That second list would be better if it wasn't a bad Coteaz build, and only had 3 dreads. Some PAGKs, and a pair of normal inquisitors with cheap gear to get 2 henchbands would be better, even if they aren't troops.

jy2 wrote:Yet, that is representative of a lot of lists that I am seeing out there. I look at them and I just frown at the imbalance of many of those lists. I agree that a good GK list needs a balance of the 2, but I am just not seeing it in a lot of lists. Rather, while they may not be as extreme as my examples, they tend to go 1 way or the other.

They're still bad lists, though. Draigo Paladin "spam" (can 20 models be spam?) simply isn't competitive. A better representation of an 'assault' list would be 3x Teleporting Dreadknights, Coteaz, and maxed Chimeras filled with Deathcult, Crusaders, and 3x Melta dudes. 3 MCs and roughly 45 power weapon toting assault Eldar equivalents. Almost no shooting beyond the 15 meltaguns but it'll rip the face off of just about anything it gets into CC with (assuming it can get there without being shot to pieces--doubtful).

BTW, don't be too quick to judge. List #2, though it isn't really balanced, is a very strong list, incorporating many of the facets of MSU-lists. As with almost all MSU-lists, they are high in KP's and suck balls in assault, but they will shoot the crap out of most armies

It's clearly the better of the two, but it's at the bottom end of what a 'good' list would look like. 3 Vendreads and 3 regular dreads aren't worth fielding together. The Vendreads simply soak too many points, and occupy a highly competitive Elites slot. What, for example, do you do against hordes? Assault with your Dakka Dreads? If you dropped the Vendreads for Purifier razorbacks (which cost comparably after upgrades) then that probably is quite a competitive list.

a better shooty list with Dreds is probably a Crowe Purifier list.


the purifiers are good at both shooting and CC and can protect the dreds(and obligatory Vindicare)

jy2 wrote:

sourclams wrote:

jy2 wrote:Yet, that is representative of a lot of lists that I am seeing out there. I look at them and I just frown at the imbalance of many of those lists. I agree that a good GK list needs a balance of the 2, but I am just not seeing it in a lot of lists. Rather, while they may not be as extreme as my examples, they tend to go 1 way or the other.

They're still bad lists, though. Draigo Paladin "spam" (can 20 models be spam?) simply isn't competitive. A better representation of an 'assault' list would be 3x Teleporting Dreadknights, Coteaz, and maxed Chimeras filled with Deathcult, Crusaders, and 3x Melta dudes. 3 MCs and roughly 45 power weapon toting assault Eldar equivalents. Almost no shooting beyond the 15 meltaguns but it'll rip the face off of just about anything it gets into CC with (assuming it can get there without being shot to pieces--doubtful).

No, that is not better. Only different. Honestly, I don't think any assault GK list, no matter how efficient you try to make it, is ever a good build.

sourclams wrote:
The Vendreads simply soak too many points, and occupy a highly competitive Elites slot. What, for example, do you do against hordes? Assault with your Dakka Dreads? If you dropped the Vendreads for Purifier razorbacks (which cost comparably after upgrades) then that probably is quite a competitive list.

Exactly. Lock up that 30-ork boy unit with 1 dread. You don't necessarily need to kill the unit to take it out of commission. Though I agree that a couple of purifiers would make the list somewhat more balanced, but like I said before, that list is an example of an unbalanced shooty list.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:a better shooty list with Dreds is probably a Crowe Purifier list.


the purifiers are good at both shooting and CC and can protect the dreds(and obligatory Vindicare)

I agree. Most balanced GK armies will have dreads and purifiers, though I don't believe the vindicare is obligatory. That's way too much hype into 1 unit that no longer has a stealth suit and can be insta-killed by 1 long fang.

jy2 wrote: That's way too much hype into 1 unit that no longer has a stealth suit and can be insta-killed by 1 long fang.

That 1 unit has stealth, infiltrate, BS8 and the deadliest ranged weapon this side of a railgun. People seem to forget that he can do more than shoot tanks (incredibly well). Snipe the commissar out of an IG powerblob or the nob in that ork mob, and suddenly they're all kinds of useless. My favorite use of him in my games was sniping a broodlord out of a genestealer cult that was about to rip up my dreds. Things went poorly for the stealers when he died.

Edit note: his last wound dropped to cleansing flame from a rescue unit of purifiers.

In a word of MSU mech armies, I love having a unit that can take out tanks with easy, and then render the squad inside next to useless by kilingl their special weapon user or leader. Being pinned and losing the one guy in the unit with a useful gun? That's insult on top of injury.

Sure, the Vindicare isn't required, but he is simply too awsome not to take.



he's normally pulling a 3+ cover so it's hard to drop him.

Grey Knights is another shooty army that assaults whats left after shooting. You can make an assaulty style list but you give all that good shooting to do it which does not seem optimal.

I think the codex is flexible enough to do both, but I am leaning towards mobile assault style list.

@Bruteboss & Grey Templar:

I can definitely see the upside of the Vindicare. Against the right army (i.e. one without decent ranged shooting), he will do well. But against the wrong one (MSU armies, armies that out-range him), he won't do so well IMO. I see him rather as a "fun" unit (much like Marbo of the Imperial Guards) rather than as a competitive all-comer's unit.

Avariel wrote:Grey Knights is another shooty army that assaults whats left after shooting. You can make an assaulty style list but you give all that good shooting to do it which does not seem optimal.

I agree 100%. I hope more people can see that this is the best way to play them.

CKO wrote:I think the codex is flexible enough to do both, but I am leaning towards mobile assault style list.

Assault GK's can be fun as well. I've tried a number of them. However, against certain armies, you will see their limitations very clearly. They won't out-assault the more assaulty armies and will die to MSU-shooty ones. That's because they are just not a balanced build....but they sure are fun as heck. I love my GK alpha-strike list after just having played them once.

But in competitive games, you can be sure I'm taking my shooty knights.

I wiped a BA list with DC assassin list.

Grey Templar wrote:
you do the Stormbolter shuffle to get 3 turns of deadly shooting(more deadly now that Psycannons are rending)



against shooty armies, you will try and get into assault(much easier now that Gks have access to Transports and Jump Infantry)

Examples: IG, T'au, shooty marines.

What is the stormbolter shuffle?

deploy as far forward as you can,

then move 6" away from your opponent each turn for as long as possable,

then, once he catches you/you run out of places to run you assault the remnants.


this is made possable by the range of the Stormbolter and psycannon.

Grey Templar wrote:Sure, the Vindicare isn't required, but he is simply too awsome not to take.


he's normally pulling a 3+ cover so it's hard to drop him.

Do you think he is worth the points in smaller lists, such as 1500pt? I'm wondering if taking another purifer squad gives me more firepower than one vindicare. Not a challenge, an honest question for a veteran. I just worry that two wounds at 145pts for a 3++ save is a risky use of points, especially considering he is easier to kill in the new codex

We know that there are a few assault elements you can add to a GK list. But T3 DCA will get shot to pieces against a good mech build.

Look, I will let my Purifiers mop up anything I haven't already destroyed with my shooting. GK can certainly outshoot most lists.

At 1500 points I have ...

2 Psyfleman w/ 48" range
5 Bolterbacks w/ psy ammo w/ 36" range
10 stormbolter warriors w/ 30"
7 psycannons w/ 24" range
6 meltaguns 12" range
2 Chims w/HHFs
6 servo-skulls to make the list more annoying

and I don't even use monkeys which i could do

eat your heart out IG ...everything but the dreads have transports ...

Of course GK are shooty. Add assault troops if you like in DCA and Arcos but really are they needed?

at smaller points the Vindicare's impact is much larger as each Sergeant, Special/heavy weapon he snipes is keenly felt.

If he is not taken out turn one or two ... I would go after him early.