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Grey Templar wrote:at smaller points the Vindicare's impact is much larger as each Sergeant, Special/heavy weapon he snipes is keenly felt.

hmm good point, I never thought of it that way

felixcat wrote:If he is not taken out turn one or two ... I would go after him early.

he isn't exactly easy to kill.

he has a 4++ save and is pretty long ranged.

also has 2 wounds.

One thing that continues to come up in this topic is purifers. Other than purgitation squads they are the only PAGK unit that can take more than one psycannon, but at the same time I feel like its wasting their extra attack in close combat. How do you guys outfit your purifer squads?

5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Boltback/Psy Ammo

I'll happily waste an attack for the psycannons. I only go cc if forced.

felixcat wrote:

I'll happily waste an attack for the psycannons. I only go cc if forced.

Only when forced? when you have all powerweapons, two attacks, and cleansing flame?

Yes only when forced. I'll keep shooting until I know I've decimated the target. Psycannons and bolterbacks do a lot of damage with little risk. When I need to dismount I will but I'm not looking to get into cc.

felixcat wrote:We know that there are a few assault elements you can add to a GK list. But T3 DCA will get shot to pieces against a good mech build.

Look, I will let my Purifiers mop up anything I haven't already destroyed with my shooting. GK can certainly outshoot most lists.

At 1500 points I have ...

2 Psyfleman w/ 48" range
5 Bolterbacks w/ psy ammo w/ 36" range
10 stormbolter warriors w/ 30"
7 psycannons w/ 24" range
6 meltaguns 12" range
2 Chims w/HHFs
6 servo-skulls to make the list more annoying

and I don't even use monkeys which i could do

eat your heart out IG ...everything but the dreads have transports ...

Of course GK are shooty. Add assault troops if you like in DCA and Arcos but really are they needed?

Got a list?

HQ:
2x OX Inquisitor, 3 Sevo-skulls = 350
5 Stormbolter Warriors, 3 Meltagun Warriors, 2 Warriors, Chimera, Searchlight, HHF

Elites:
2x 5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Boltback/Psy Ammo = 380

Troops:
3x 5 GKSS, Psycanon, Boltback/Psy Ammo = 495

Heavy Support:
2x Dreadnought, 2 TL Autocannons, Psy Ammo = 275

1500

I know ... spammy and boring. I stole the idea for the henchmen squad from Stelek - had 2 jokaero and two meltas orginally. But his build left me room for the servo-skulls and got me extra bodies for wound allocations. Not that they are surviving a chim blow up, lol.

felixcat wrote:HQ:

Elites:
2x 5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Boltback/Psy Ammo = 380

Troops:
3x 5 GKSS, Psycanon, Boltback/Psy Ammo = 495

If you prefer a shooty army are you just using your boltbacks to get into that 24" range as opposed to getting them into cc?

jy2 I think that GK's unique mobility, combine with constant long range anti-tank due to fortitude will allow a mobile assaulty list to be compeitive, eventhough you are technically still relying on shooty elements the overall goal is cc.

CKO wrote:jy2 I think that GK's unique mobility, combine with constant long range anti-tank due to fortitude will allow a mobile assaulty list to be compeitive, eventhough you are technically still relying on shooty elements the overall goal is cc.

While that may work against some armies, it won't work against the more assaulty ones. GK assault is above-average compared to other MEQ's. Against a similar army, they can shoot better and assault better...that is, against the average army. However, if you tip the army to a more extreme, you will see their glaring weakness (or rather, imbalance). Against a more shooty army like Tau, IG, eldar or any MSU army, their transports will get quickly shot down and they would then be forced to footslog. Then those "shooty" armies just need to screen them out with screening units/vehicles (or move away in the case of eldar) and then shoot them some more until they're too small in numbers to do much of anything in assault.

Then against a more assaulty army, their numbers and Volume of Attacks is just plain laughable to armies like nids, orks, daemons and even space wolves/blood angels. Sure they may kill the initial unit they charge, but the retaliation from the enemy will really hurt them. In an elitist army, every casualty hurts.

You'll find an assault GK army with some support fire will do alright against the average army, but once they face an army that is more optimized with a more clearly defined focus (i.e. a more shooty army or more assaulty one), it'll be like Grey Knights running into a brick wall.

You can limit shooty armies with mobility and proper terrain uses, and 3+ cover save.

Grey Templar wrote:


they are a Water army

Oh lord, not this crap again... I do hope this "water" nonsense doesn't resurface, that original tactics article was essentially based on premeasuring and cheese mongering.

Terminus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:


they are a Water army

Oh lord, not this crap again... I do hope this "water" nonsense doesn't resurface, that original tactics article was essentially based on premeasuring and cheese mongering.

IDK about cheese mongering. Nothing I remember from the original articles was actual cheese, and part of the premeasuring was from war gear that you could buy.

I learned some important things from the article, mostly how to play super conservatively (which has served me well), DH suck so you have to greatly outplay everybody, and a deep loathing for pretentious terminology.

Can someone point me in the direction of this so called water article?

felixcat wrote:HQ:
2x OX Inquisitor, 3 Sevo-skulls = 350
5 Stormbolter Warriors, 3 Meltagun Warriors, 2 Warriors, Chimera, Searchlight, HHF

Elites:
2x 5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Boltback/Psy Ammo = 380

Troops:
3x 5 GKSS, Psycanon, Boltback/Psy Ammo = 495

Heavy Support:
2x Dreadnought, 2 TL Autocannons, Psy Ammo = 275

1500

I know ... spammy and boring. I stole the idea for the henchmen squad from Stelek - had 2 jokaero and two meltas orginally. But his build left me room for the servo-skulls and got me extra bodies for wound allocations. Not that they are surviving a chim blow up, lol.

Would do great against SM lists with lots of AV11 targets.

Don't think it would do well against mech IG with lots of AV12 targets. It's a S6 slugging match between AV12 Chimera, Vendettas, and Manticores on one side and AV11 razorbacks +AV12 dreads on the other side. The problem is S6 can't penetrate the Chimera, so if the IG drops the dreads with lascannons and/or suicide melta guns jumping out of vendettas the bolterbacks can't handle AV12.

It's a good all around list that's well tooled to kill SM. Spammy just means it will have trouble against other specific lists.

I'll answer questions. Purifiers disembark when they have targets to shoot at. You need to move everything to mid table by turn two. The best we have for high AV are our meltas which need to be 6"-12" away but they can get there quickly. Then we have our psy ammo dreads at 48". It's not that bad. We also have seven psycannons. Why do you think we can't handle AV12? We can.

There is a problem with razor spam. We have no firepoints. I didn't mean do not disembark. I meant do not disembark to get into cc. Hide half your squad behind the razor and just keep the psys in los so you get your cover saves of course. When ar unit of GKSS lose their ride let them borrow the purifiers if they need it.

I could use Coteaz and melta spam my list. I think that will be a popular build. We will see VEn Dreads instead of Purifiers in some builds. But these are changes made at higher levels I believe. At 1500 this list will hurt many armies.

Paladins are still shooting when disembarked - hiding behind our mobile terrain and picking out one target in LOS and hiding from others. GK are NOT primarily an assaulty army although we are better than basic marines. Chaos has troops that assault better and can match our GKs for less. But they don't have all our toys.

The list is designed to take on anything not just SM. It can handle Orks and Nids with confidence. It will win the attrition battles by maintaining the proper distances and shooting at range. Against IG - well it is a good match for both. Best general - best die rolls.

DE and mech Eldar are just plain who gets to alpha strike first and if cover is employed well we have an upper hand I believe because our list is more forgiving then DE paper flyers and Eldar's need to highly specialize with less redundancy.

There is an easy way to add a bit more Dakka as well ... drop one OX and retinue and add one Psyfledread ... you even get two jokaero out of the deal which could be two lascan shots.

GK have their own unique play style and we will need to see a FAQ.

jazzman674 wrote:Can someone point me in the direction of this so called water article?

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214

Enjoy, its a rather long read, and meant for the old daemonhunter book, pure grey knight style.

schadenfreude wrote:

felixcat wrote:HQ:
2x OX Inquisitor, 3 Sevo-skulls = 350
5 Stormbolter Warriors, 3 Meltagun Warriors, 2 Warriors, Chimera, Searchlight, HHF

Elites:
2x 5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Boltback/Psy Ammo = 380

Troops:
3x 5 GKSS, Psycanon, Boltback/Psy Ammo = 495

Heavy Support:
2x Dreadnought, 2 TL Autocannons, Psy Ammo = 275

1500

I know ... spammy and boring. I stole the idea for the henchmen squad from Stelek - had 2 jokaero and two meltas orginally. But his build left me room for the servo-skulls and got me extra bodies for wound allocations. Not that they are surviving a chim blow up, lol.

Would do great against SM lists with lots of AV11 targets.

Don't think it would do well against mech IG with lots of AV12 targets. It's a S6 slugging match between AV12 Chimera, Vendettas, and Manticores on one side and AV11 razorbacks +AV12 dreads on the other side. The problem is S6 can't penetrate the Chimera, so if the IG drops the dreads with lascannons and/or suicide melta guns jumping out of vendettas the bolterbacks can't handle AV12.

It's a good all around list that's well tooled to kill SM. Spammy just means it will have trouble against other specific lists.

Psycannons are Str7 with Rending now.

felixcat wrote:We know that there are a few assault elements you can add to a GK list. But T3 DCA will get shot to pieces against a good mech build.

Look, I will let my Purifiers mop up anything I haven't already destroyed with my shooting. GK can certainly outshoot most lists.

At 1500 points I have ...

2 Psyfleman w/ 48" range
5 Bolterbacks w/ psy ammo w/ 36" range
10 stormbolter warriors w/ 30"
7 psycannons w/ 24" range
6 meltaguns 12" range
2 Chims w/HHFs
6 servo-skulls to make the list more annoying

and I don't even use monkeys which i could do

eat your heart out IG ...everything but the dreads have transports ...

Of course GK are shooty. Add assault troops if you like in DCA and Arcos but really are they needed?

Hahaha I don't think you can still outshoot an IG army....and versus the IG those transports won't last for long as the IG can pump out vehicle killing firepower from WAAAAAYYY over the other side of the table...

those transports are more durable then others. you have to do permanant damage and better hope he doesn't make it to your side.


and any infiltrating strike squads will ruin your day.

Terminus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
they are a Water army

Oh lord, not this crap again... I do hope this "water" nonsense doesn't resurface, that original tactics article was essentially based on premeasuring and cheese mongering.

I actually find the "Way of the Water Warrior" to be quite good. Basically, it made a sub-par army such as the daemonhunters actually competitive, not by powerful lists and units, but purely by tactics.

Pre-measuring was allowed by a wargear called the "targeter".

And if you're calling such an outdated and uncompetitive codex as the older Daemonhunters "cheesy", then you're definitely validating how good that tactica is.

Grey Templar wrote:
Psycannons are Str7 with Rending now.

I believe he was referring to the S6 psybolt heavy bolters on the razorbacks, not the psycannons.

freddieyu1 wrote:
Hahaha I don't think you can still outshoot an IG army....and versus the IG those transports won't last for long as the IG can pump out vehicle killing firepower from WAAAAAYYY over the other side of the table...

Don't be too quick to judge. MSU-MEQ's have already surpassed IG in terms of ranged AT. My space wolves and even my new grey knights can definitely hang with IG in a firefight.

Check my batreps against IG with my Space Wolves and my Grey Knights.

Grey Templar wrote:
and any infiltrating strike squads will ruin your day.

Eh....I wasn't aware the strike squads can infiltrate.

Strike Squads and interceptors have the Deep Strike USR. I think one of the better ways to utilize that is to take a 10 man squad with a bolter back and combat squad them. 1/2 DS, 1/2 in the back. Lets you DS your two psycannons where they can reach side/rear armor and occupy the enemy while your backs head on in.

spyguyyoda wrote:Strike Squads and interceptors have the Deep Strike USR. I think one of the better ways to utilize that is to take a 10 man squad with a bolter back and combat squad them. 1/2 DS, 1/2 in the back. Lets you DS your two psycannons where they can reach side/rear armor and occupy the enemy while your backs head on in.

You cannot legally do that. Combat squads have to be deployed at the same time. You cannot deploy one and leave the other in reserves, as would be the case if one of them is deepstriking.

i meant interceptor squads


I was actually kinda bummed they didn't make the Teliporters an upgrade for the Strike Squads.

i really wanted a scoring teliporter army

@jy2

You get it. Played a game today against a 1500 IG list with this ...

HQ:
OX Inquisitor = 235
4 Stormbolter Warriors, Crusader, 3 Meltagun Warriors, 2 Jokearos, Chimera, ML/HHF

Elites:
2x 5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Boltback/Psy Ammo = 380

Troops:
3x 5 GKSS, Psycanon, Boltback/Psy Ammo = 480

Heavy Support:
3x Dreadnought, 2 TL Autocannons, Psy Ammo = 405

1500

I think he actually stretched his points a bit too. Don't discount fortitude. He fielded two vendettas and three chims and hydras. So he had some dakka for sure but so did I ad my autocannons are better than his.

It was a closer game than I expected (I expected an easier win as I know IG well and this is my second go around with GK). But then I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

I should have been a bit more aggressive. I layed back a bit relying on those dreads too much and my monkeys and ML for range. I could have closed the gap sooner. Otherwise it was advantage GK mostly though a small advantage.

Marines survive an explosion or fire power better than IG ... so demeched we win the war of attrition easily. I remebered to keep my purifiers in LOS and still get the cover save as the rest of the squad was hidden - I forget this sometimes. It made a big difference.

Stormbolter warriors aren't bad actually but the monkeys ... I rolled double bonus and I never roll well. Two jokers seem just about perfect, IMHO. The squad were stars along with the Dreads. Nothing like 48" str 8 12 shots a turn TLed autocannons, eh. And rending psycannons at 24"-36".

Nothing like 48" str 8 rending 12 shots a turn TLed autocannons, eh.

Erm...You DO realize that psybolt ammo is only +1 str right? It doesn't give you rending.

Sry - rending on the 36" psycannons when needed. It wasn't clear ... I'll edit to end confusion.

The list is built to be very redundant and to cause problems at all different ranges depending upon how you set up. That's why as much as i like the Vindicator, i refuse to pay the points for him and shorten the rest of my list. For this reason GK excell at the shooty game. You cannot hide from their dakka. Sure you will get some cover saves but you will still take a lot of shots. It is quite similar to a well built leafblower list with the benefit of marines and fortitude.

felixcat wrote:Sry - rending on the 36" psycannons when needed. It wasn't clear ... I'll edit to end confusion.

The list is built to be very redundant and to cause problems at all different ranges depending upon how you set up. That's why as much as i like the Vindicator, i refuse to pay the points for him and shorten the rest of my list. For this reason GK excell at the shooty game. You cannot hide from their dakka. Sure you will get some cover saves but you will still take a lot of shots. It is quite similar to a well built leafblower list with the benefit of marines and fortitude.

Where in the world are you getting 36" psycannons from? o,0

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

felixcat wrote:Sry - rending on the 36" psycannons when needed. It wasn't clear ... I'll edit to end confusion.

The list is built to be very redundant and to cause problems at all different ranges depending upon how you set up. That's why as much as i like the Vindicator, i refuse to pay the points for him and shorten the rest of my list. For this reason GK excell at the shooty game. You cannot hide from their dakka. Sure you will get some cover saves but you will still take a lot of shots. It is quite similar to a well built leafblower list with the benefit of marines and fortitude.

Where in the world are you getting 36" psycannons from? o,0

Maybe he's recalling their stats from an old codex? Were psycannon not 36" range (but only St 6) in their previous incarnation?