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Duncan_Idaho wrote:You can get it as a kit from Dust Studio already (1/35).
@Inquisitor
The old system was broken. It did not allow the team to flesh out the differences between the units pointwise. Not much of a problem fro a small boardgame, but when you plan to release a TT-version of it, it really gets annoying.
You will be able to play the boardgame, but you will also be able to play the TT with nearly the same set of stuff.
the only point to the new point system is killing walkers , thats the only thing the new point system accounts for .
we were already playing on 4X6 foot table with the base point system , and everyone i demoed it to , and evey one i played it with liked it just fine , and when i would mention the tourny points system , they all agreed that it is fine the way it was .
.
"I was not born , i sprang from the head of the GodEmperor as he contemplated a particularly vile joke ."
I beg to differ, it creates problems for future developments since we do not have enough room to differentiate the units when using the old system.
It might be fine for you and those that play small games (and the boardgame is small compared to the TT-rules) but we won´t be able to stage the big battles that we plan for the TT.
We really need more than one digit AP if we want to balance the game. Else you will get what you fear. And the problem 40K has is not points, it`s mainly a management that does not want to transfer the game into the 21st century for fear of loosing customers but ironically does everything to loose them by just not improving the game and rising prices at a maddening pace.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
As someone who invested in AT-43, how do I know that I won't get burned again by getting into Dust Tactics (both by the game rules and by Rackham's mismanagement)? In other words, what is so different about Dust Tactics that significantly improves it as a game over AT-43 and how is Rackham promising not to screw up this time?
And how about distribution? During the height of AT-43, I could not find certain units (UNA Steel Troopers Attachment Boxes) or gaming tools (Reversible Gaming Tiles and Bunkers) at all. And [insert deity here] help you if you wanted to buy old issues of Cry Havoc! for scenario rules and cards, especially for those of us in the U.S..
I think Rackham produces some beautiful stuff, but they have a history of alienating their fans (from Confrontation to AT-43) and hiding behind a wall of silence. Why should I give Rackham any more of my money when other companies actually take the time to address fan concerns and respond to customer feedback?
I think these are fair questions for me to ask if Rackham wants to earn my continued patronage.
pombe wrote:I think these are fair questions for me to ask if Rackham wants to earn my continued patronage.
Rackham is dead and buried and has nothing to do with Dust barring the fact AT-43 was supposed to be Dust.
Dust Tactics is produced and distributed by Fantasy Flight Games.
Close. The Dust universe was developed by Paolo Parente, who also wokred for Rackham, but it was his own independant project. The Dust Tactics game was developed and produced by Dust Games (With Paolo being one of the founding partners). DG tried first to partner with AEG for marketing and distribution. For unstated reasons, DG switched to Fantasy Flight Games for marketing and distribution last year. However DG still produces the game itself.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/06/08 22:00:11
First: Game is developed by Dust Studio which is owned by Paolo Parente.
Second: Rackham is not involved anymore in it. But way back Dust was planned to be released as Alternate-Timeline 43. They switched to SF cause they wer not sure how customers would react to the WWII background.
Third: AEG realized very soon that they could not produce minis at a speed that was necessary to support the game, so it was transfered to a company that is ablte to do it: FFG.
Fourth: TT rules are under development by a very capable rules designer that has been for decades in the business.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
rwwin wrote:The Dust universe was developed by Paolo Parente, who also wokred for Rackham, but it was his own independant project. The Dust Tactics game was developed and produced by Dust Games (With Paolo being one of the founding partners). DG tried first to partner with AEG for marketing and distribution. For unstated reasons, DG switched to Fantasy Flight Games for marketing and distribution last year. However DG still produces the game itself.
Duncan_Idaho wrote:First: Game is developed by Dust Studio which is owned by Paolo Parente.
Second: Rackham is not involved anymore in it. But way back Dust was planned to be released as Alternate-Timeline 43. They switched to SF cause they wer not sure how customers would react to the WWII background.
Third: AEG realized very soon that they could not produce minis at a speed that was necessary to support the game, so it was transfered to a company that is ablte to do it: FFG.
Thanks for the correction and information.
However, my questions still stand, especially because the same person who created AT-43 is in charge of Dust Tactics (and Dust Games/Studio).
So:
1) How is Dust Tactics a better game system than AT-43? Are there abusable tactics or units?
2) How do the Dust Tactics miniatures compare to AT-43?
3) I'm assuming that because FFG is handling it, there have been no distribution problems so far. Am I wrong?
4) How, if at all, did Paolo Parente play a role in Rackham's demise? And if he did play a role, how will I know he won't repeat his mistakes at Dust Games/Studio? Remember, Rackham hid behind a wall of silence. I am hoping that Dust Games/Studio has been much more forthcoming with their game development information and much more open to interacting with fans.
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Fourth: TT rules are under development by a very capable rules designer that has been for decades in the business.
This does not inspire confidence. It sounds like more hiding behind walls of silence. If this guy is so great and well known at rules writing, they should be shouting his name everywhere to get more attention to Dust Tactics. Blizzard was quick to announce that they had hired Andy Chambers and Mantic was equally quick to announce that they had hired Alessio Cavatore as a consultant, for example.
I want to emphasize that my tone in this post might come off as aggressive/argumentative, but that's not how I mean it to be. I am genuinely interested in Dust Tactics, BUT I am genuinely concerned, as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/09 02:35:36
2011/06/09 07:20:51
Subject: Re:The Dust Tactics News and Rumors Thread
1) How is Dust Tactics a better game system than AT-43? Are there abusable tactics or units?
Part of the Dust Team has already worked in AT-43 and I can assure you that the more competent part of the team works at Dust Studio. A certain designer that favoured one army over the other is not with the team. They learned from the mistakes discovered during the lifetime of AT-43, i.e. rules are improved and better formulated, also the packaging now has all variants of one unit in one box. Board and TT will share quite some elements, but TT is also geared for way bigger battels and will contain certain elements that allow more action-reaction style of play.
2) How do the Dust Tactics miniatures compare to AT-43?
Packaging of variations > all in one box. Price has gone down for units. Units are preprimed instead of prepainted which saves you some work and still looks good on the table without any painting and also leaves it to yyou what kind of paint-scheme you want. And if you are absolutely paintophobic you can (at a price) get the deluxe version of the game which is painted at studio level. Detail has improved cause the incorporated in the new designs what they learned from the older designs.
3) I'm assuming that because FFG is handling it, there have been no distribution problems so far. Am I wrong?
Nope. Outisde US it might take a little bit longer until you get your stuff, but that´s the delay FFG has with all of its products whenn delivering outside US.
4) How, if at all, did Paolo Parente play a role in Rackham's demise? And if he did play a role, how will I know he won't repeat his mistakes at Dust Games/Studio? Remember, Rackham hid behind a wall of silence. I am hoping that Dust Games/Studio has been much more forthcoming with their game development information and much more open to interacting with fans.
In short: Rackham should have first gone with AT-43 and at a later point in time transfered Confrontation to plastic. Too much change for such a short period. In the end they diverted their portfolio too much and had to apply for protection. Later they were bought by an advertising/consulting-company which was tragically their demise since this time they did everything right but their parent company had other plans. Their parent company was already in financial trouble when they bought Rackham, but kept quiet and bought Rackham only to extract the money coming with the buy and avoiding bancruptcy for some more months. So, Rackham ordered stuff from factoriescause they got the go from their parent company, but the parent company never paid the orders. The whole case is now under investigation and has gone to court. The parent company will in probabaility be punished for thsi fraudulant behaviour, but that does not help Rackham anymore.
Also, staying with metal would not have helped Rackham. Metal miniatures sales were declining since the later minis were so detailed, that they attracted painters more than regular gamers. Also Confrontation got too complicated with more than 1000 different cards and units. PP has the same problem and I am wondering how they will manage to avoid the rules creep that killed the olde Confrontation game in the end.
This does not inspire confidence. It sounds like more hiding behind walls of silence. If this guy is so great and well known at rules writing, they should be shouting his name everywhere to get more attention to Dust Tactics. Blizzard was quick to announce that they had hired Andy Chambers and Mantic was equally quick to announce that they had hired Alessio Cavatore as a consultant, for example.
And for a good reason. I am sick off how much flak e.g. Alessio got from some forum trolls when it was announced that he will write the Warpath rules. In the past many of us game designers and poeple from the business were present on forums, but thanks to some forum trolls only a few of us are left to activly participate in the community. The name of the designer will be named in due time. Also: Mantic released Alessios name several months after they contracted him.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
2011/06/09 07:43:38
Subject: Re:The Dust Tactics News and Rumors Thread
Your men are fatigued and without morale; their fellow soldiers have been killed in brutal encounters with the enemy. Walkers lie broken on the battlefield. How can you continue on? You’ll need new units, a new walker, a new hero...
Fantasy Flight Games is pleased to announce the upcoming release of Dust Tactics: Revised Core Set, the tactical miniatures board game of brutal combat for 2-4 players based in an alternate 1940s universe!
A new point system
Last February we presented the official Dust Tactics tournament rules that introduced unique army point costs for all the units available to date. The response to these point costs was enthusiastically positive; players were inspired by the possibilities brought to the game experience, and said it made a great game even better.
Following on the success that the tournament rules have enjoyed, the decision was made to adopt the tournament army point system for the Dust Tactics game overall. This change allows for even more dynamic game design and balance while keeping the same overall enjoyable Dust Tactics play experience. This new point system is featured in Operation “SeeLöwe” and will continue to be the army point standard for all future releases.
The new point values (pdf, 220 KB) for all units released before Operation “SeeLöwe” are available for download on the support page.
If you prefer to have unit cards with the new point costs, you can pick up a Dust Tactics Unit Card Upgrade Pack, which includes cards with the new point costs for all units released before Operation “SeeLöwe.” For more information, visit our Dust Tactics Unit Card Upgrade Pack article.
Mission Briefings
The year is 1947, and the war spawned by Germany’s invasion of Poland never ended, instead growing and spreading worldwide. The world’s superpowers clash over the revolutionary VK, a rare and mysterious alien power source that fuels the construction of incredible weaponry. Elite troops and massive combat walkers wage violent battles to claim the world’s VK deposits, because controlling VK and denying it to the enemy will decide the outcome of the war.
Dust Tactics: Revised Core Set features new cover art and includes:
All new, never-before-released miniatures exclusive to this Core Set
An updated and comprehensive rulebook
The “Victory Bridge” scenario book
Six custom dice
Two double-sided terrain posters (each the size of six terrain tiles)
10 unit cards
Nine double-sided hazard squares
Two ammo-crates
Two anti-tank traps
Produced in a smaller more compact box, the Dust Tactics: Revised Core Set is the perfect introduction for new players or a great expansion for veteran players who own the original Dust Tactics Core Set.
The included terrain posters unique to the Revised Core Set introduce Dust Tactics players to new terrain elements featured in the “Victory Bridge” scenario book. These terrain posters are a new warfare experience due to the new environment they offer players: a bridge and building structures, as well as new terrain symbols.
The “Victory Bridge” scenario book offers players six never-before-seen scenarios with which they can carry out a campaign. England’s Cobden Bridge has suddenly become the strategic location for gaining access to Southampton. Can your faction take control of the bridge, and gain the advantage of advancing into southern England?
Further, these posters are not the only addition to our Dust Tactics terrain library. Dust Tactics players can pick up a copy of our Dust Tactics Terrain Tile Set to expand their battlefield. Additionally, we will continue to produce terrain tiles in upcoming campaign expansions. Visit our Dust Tactics Terrain Tile Set article for more information.
Your Allied forces
Reinforcements have appeared, their speedy arrival financed from the deep pockets of the secret Allied organization ASOCOM. The Allies are ready to say a deadly “hello” to their Axis foes with their new forces: the BlackHawk, Death Dealers, Hell Boys, Hammers, and a new hero named Rhino.
The high-tech BlackHawk can send a deluge of firepower against any infantry unit or tank. Use the walker’s speed to reach the enemy then turn BlackHawk’s cannons red hot when you increase its rate of fire.
The aptly named Hammers are ready to smash through Axis lines with their turbo-charged fists. These mighty forces are brutally fast and effective. While the Death Dealers have no special ability, they still deal out savage attacks with their full arsenal of weaponry. The Allied Hell Boys will certainly turn up the heat on the battlefield with their attacks. Get them close to any Axis walker then give them hell.
Sergeant Major William Springfield, aka Rhino, can become quite feverish in his devoted fight against enemy troops. Uncontrollable in his rage, Rhino will vigorously attack his foes, resulting in catastrophic Axis losses.
The Axis response
The Blutkreuz Korps refuse to be bested on any field of battle. When their spies heard about new Allied troops they found troops to counter the new arrival. The Axis high command is pleased to introduce the Heavy Flak Grenadiers, Sturmpionieren, Heavy Laser Grenadiers, the new walker, Hans, and fellow hero, Lara.
The Axis’ Hans should always be deployed to have it scout ahead and devastate any Allied walkers it finds. One hit is deadly to most tanks.
Both the Heavy Flak Grenadiers and the Heavy Laser Grenadiers are welcome additions to an Axis army. The Heavy Flak Grenadiers have an incredible rate of fire to attack against any sluggish target. The Heavy Laser Grenadiers are equally powerful. Pit them against Allied tanks; for every hit they deal incredible damage. Sturmpionieren possess terrifying weapons to be used in the course of battle, and are fast on their feet.
Leading these new troops into the fray is Lara Walter, a fearless queen of war. Shots from both of her MG 44 Zwei’s will annihilate infantry. Lara shares her fiery attitude with any squad she joins, spurring them to an effective advance.
Get ready to fight the war anew with these all new, never-before-released miniatures when Dust Tactics: Revised Core Set is released in the third quarter of 2011!
With the intimidating forces of the rival bloc spread out on the battlefield before you, what kind of army will you build?
Fantasy Flight Games is pleased to announce the upcoming release of the Dust Tactics Unit Card Upgrade Pack!
Gather your forces
The affordable Dust Tactics Unit Card Upgrade Pack includes unit cards for all the units released before Operation “SeeLöwe,” including unit cards for all preview miniatures available from Dust Tactics Game Night kits.
Dust Tactics’ previously published unit cards have been reprinted in the Dust Tactics Unit Card Upgrade Pack and have been updated to the new army point costs featured in the Revised Core Set.
The new point values for all units released before Operation “SeeLöwe” are also available for download on the support page.
For more information about the new Dust Tactics point system, please read our Dust Tactics: Revised Core Set announcement article.
Be sure to scan enemy lines for more Dust Tactics news in the future and get ready to upgrade your troops’ cards when the Dust Tactics Unit Card Upgrade Pack is released in the third quarter of 2011!
“Sir, do you know what the environment will be when we land?” The young soldier yelled over the noise of the plane’s engine.
The Captain shook his head. “You have to be ready for anything, private.”
Fantasy Flight Games is thrilled to announce the upcoming release of the Dust Tactics Terrain Tile Set!
New locations
The Dust Tactics Terrain Tile Set includes 12 double-sided terrain tiles and more to expand your Dust Tactics map library. These exciting components feature snow, warehouse, water, and bridge locations on which your Dust Tactics troops can wage their war. The Dust Tactics Terrain Tile Set also includes the Operation: Blue Thunder campaign book found in the original Core Set. There are eight scenarios featured in the campaign book as well as three bonus scenarios to play on massive maps that are 12 tiles large.
This expansion allows new Dust Tactics players to experience the scenarios available in the original Dust Tactics Core Set, as well as three never-before-seen scenarios for 12 tiles. To learn more about the Dust Tactics: Revised Core Set, read our announcement article.
Players who own the original Dust Tactics Core Set will be able to expand their experience with the additional locations found on these terrain tiles and the three bonus scenarios.
Further, the included double-sided structure tiles allow your forces to battle in an urban environment, recently an experience only available through Operation “SeeLöwe.”
More Dust Tactics news will be radioed to your commander in the near future. Get ready to deploy your troops to new locations when the Dust Tactics Terrain Tile Set is released in the third quarter of 2011!
1)I beg to differ, it creates problems for future developments since we do not have enough room to differentiate the units when using the old system.
2)It might be fine for you and those that play small games (and the boardgame is small compared to the TT-rules) but we won´t be able to stage the big battles that we plan for the TT.
3)We really need more than one digit AP if we want to balance the game. Else you will get what you fear. And the problem 40K has is not points, it`s mainly a management that does not want to transfer the game into the 21st century for fear of loosing customers but ironically does everything to loose them by just not improving the game and rising prices at a maddening pace.
ive played minis games for 20 years or so , and untill FFG decided to screw it up , this game fixed alot of the problems that other minis games suffer from .
1) then they should have sold iit that way from the start , not package and sell one product and 9 months alter decide to sell another . as for me and many others , the old system works fine . unless you ad in army books that require certain builds for the game like 40K does , there is no need for POINTS differentiation , because players could choose what they wanted based on how they play .
had FFG supprted both systems , which they could have , it would still be a friendly game for every one . now FFG seems to just want to market to the 40K crowd , and noone else . one of the best points players could make to entice others into playing this game is that its NOT 40k , but now thats what FFG wants it to become .
2) a scewy point system that only accounts for attacking walkers doesnt make it better at stageing big battles . we can stage as large of battles as we want using the basic system . and having the grid doesnt limit the size of battels either since the units still take up the same amount of space on the grid as they do on the TT , if anything , TT rules will require more space for the same number of units as players try to spread them out on the board .
3) the change over in points doesnt balance the game unless they impose army books on the game to force people to take certain army builds and require them to take vehicles , just like the new points system requires you to take a hero . the tourney points arent accurate , and they dont balance the game unless as i said the basis of the game is ONLY to kill walkers . and your arguement that 40K is fine , but GW wont takle it forward admits that 40K IS messed up and behind the times and needs to change . what FFG is doing with dust is taking it from the great game it started as less than a year ago and turning it into the mess 40K is .
if FFG wanted to sell WH40K jr , they should have done so from the start , not go back 9 months in and force people who bought in all this time to all play a 40K wannabe !
"I was not born , i sprang from the head of the GodEmperor as he contemplated a particularly vile joke ."
Duncan_Idaho wrote:You have an axe to grind with 40K. Fine. But don`t expect further answers from me.
Oh and BTW, the old point system made it way to easy to kill walkers since infantry and walkers were not well balanced. This gets rectified.
And this is not from a person that is just a gamer but one that actually works on the game.
i know you work on the game , you keep saying "we" when you refer to what FFG is doing , so forgive me if i dont just bow down and kiss your feet , i dont hold you in the same awe that you apparently hold your self .
but again , the points system you use doesnt "Fix" anything , and only reinforces that you guys are designing the system around the idea that tanks are all that matter .
your previous posts also point to the idea that rather than having a game that statnds out from the rest , you hired a pro that has worked on other tabale top games because you want it to be JUST LIKE THE REST ! which of course will keep it in so much good company , soince so many 40K clones fill the pages of DEAD games that failed , crashed , and burned , even those put out by big companies that thought they knew what they were doing .
you pulled a bait and switch , obviously you wanted to sell a cheap 40K ripoff , but you should have said that from the start , so i wouldnt have wasted time and money on the pile of drek you want to make this game into !
i didnt lie for over 9 months , YOU , and the rst of the FFG staff did .
you marketed it to a non minis gamer crowd , and now you want to make it into an ONLY minis gamer crowd !
sounds like alot of the same "we know it all , customers are dumb " stuff we see from GW , and the same mistakes that rackham suffered from as it sank .
"I was not born , i sprang from the head of the GodEmperor as he contemplated a particularly vile joke ."
anywho on a more positive note, i have a fairly large 40K collection and i keep peeking at Dust Tactics. I am not sure why but it really seems interesting and i know i will eventually get either of the starter boxes if not both.
i have been holding back on buying anything untill the TT rules come out, and while i like the Germans the Soviet walker has my eye and i eagerly await a line for them.
Go, design your own game if you think you can do it better, meanwhile FFG at least earns money with the game and secures the further future of the game.
P.S: You are the first user ever for whom i push the Ignore button. Consider yourself somethin special.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
2011/06/09 13:42:16
Subject: Re:The Dust Tactics News and Rumors Thread
I have been going through my recently purchased starter box and it is awesome.
A few initial thoughts:
I like the large unit cards with the pictures, it helps to see what you are reading the rules for and the size of the cards is just great.
The miniatures move!!! This has to be the coolest thing possible. Yes it is limited but none the less way fun. It will make dramatic poses while on the tabletop easier to accomplish.
Having pre-primed miniatures was an ingenious move, I have been inspired like non-other to get the guys painted. While non-painted minis I have to break through the mental wall of having to prime and get the model ready, as well as how I want to prime etc. Yet the pre-primed looks better than any thing I could do on my own with out dropping tons of cash to do it.
Game play looks fun and fast I will let you know once I do.
Edit for a question: @Duncan you work on Dust rules? If so what can or can't you discuss about them? Awesome!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/09 14:30:24
I'm seriously looking at Dust Tactics but I'm a little confused about what people are saying. Is DT leaving the board game genre and moving to TT? Would the TT game still use the tiles, simplified movement/LOS? If I want to get into the game, should I wait for the new starter box, get the old one, or get both ?
2011/06/09 15:55:18
Subject: Re:The Dust Tactics News and Rumors Thread
As far as I can see they are sticking to their board game roots, they're just changing a minor aspect of the game. Right now most units are worth the same point value ("2") but this will be changed into a different system.
I'm really starting to like these models the more I see em..
Sorry for being a noob but, this is a board game? or was a board game? If you have units of guys running around, how big would your board end up being? Like is it a 40k type of game with a big table, or more like 1 squad vs 1 squad?
2011/06/09 16:08:06
Subject: Re:The Dust Tactics News and Rumors Thread
I'm seriously looking at Dust Tactics but I'm a little confused about what people are saying. Is DT leaving the board game genre and moving to TT? Would the TT game still use the tiles, simplified movement/LOS? If I want to get into the game, should I wait for the new starter box, get the old one, or get both ?
DT will stay a boardgame, but TT-rules will additionally realeased in the future. Except for the seperately released TT-book you will just need what you already have for the boardgame. You can choose whether you want on one day play on the board or on the other on a tabletop. The TT will use normal tt-scenery and you can of course use the tanktraps, boxes etc. The TT will not use the tiles.
@box
Get the old one and the new one if you plan to play Axis and Allies. Both are good deals and besides from the books and supporting stuff do have completely different units.
@Pael
Let´s say I work in a counseling way on the game and also do the translation for the German market.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/06/09 16:10:23
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
2011/06/09 16:08:11
Subject: Re:The Dust Tactics News and Rumors Thread
