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Hulksmash wrote:Funny part is they're already changing the names on the website to be more generic. Have a lot more to go but they started

I think they are about finished.

They have changed the wording in a very specific way.

For example, they no longer sell "Tyranid bits". This is because Tyranid is Trademarked in the UK, and CH is not authorized to produce Tyranids. Part of the GW complaint is that they claim the wording "Tyranid bit" mean you are selling a piece of something that is a Tyranid.

However, they do sell "28mm Ymgarl Heads". Ymgarl is not trademarked in the US or UK.

It's listed on the papers? And it remains IP?

God this is confusing!

Kanluwen wrote:

Goon3423 wrote:I have not posted on here in forever because I am not working on anything 40k, but screw GW, I am going to place an order with Chapterhouse just to show some support. If GW actually made products that people want there wouldn't be such a third party bits market. So look for my order Chapterhouse & give em' hell!

That's a load of crock.

People who want Salamander or quite a few of the Chapters that CH make Shoulderpads for can buy GW's.

But they won't, because they feel that it's "too expensive" to personalize their army using GW's.

Another business offered a lower price alternative, that is how the free market is supposed to function and I fail to see the issue with that in a capitalistic society.

Hulksmash wrote:Funny part is they're already changing the names on the website to be more generic. Have a lot more to go but they started

It's a bit late for that. Only makes them look guilty now.

Oh dear...

IP deary...IP....

Seems CH have a rather communist approach to other peoples intellectual property. And indeed their trademarks. So why all this mindless bandying of freemarket I don't know.

I don't want to sound like a spoilsport, but since nothing has been proven yet, how about we lay off calling CH communists or thieves. They post here, and it's insulting and not adding to the discussion.

Fair enough. A bit too easy to let personal opinion come to the fore. My apologies.

Mr Mystery wrote:And?

They are using GW IP to trade. If it wasn't for the GW IP, they'd have nothing to sell, and no one to sell to. They have ripped GW off quite shamelessly.

Why GW are going after the walker, I don't know. But the Marine parts, Eldar parts, Tyranid parts have all been advertised as such. Try to grasp this...it's likely more the usage of GW names and to a certain extant iconography, than the shape and attachment points of the models that have got a bee in GWs bonnet. This is something CH were previously shameless of, claiming to have 'shown the way' and proclaiming how 'we've got round IP'.

I do wonder just how well people grasp the impact GW losing control of it's IP would be. ANYONE could produce ANYTHING using the names, themes, iconography etc of GW. We're talking films, computer games, table top games etc. This is why they have to come down hard on CH, whether you feel it's deserved or not. No company can ever afford to lose control of it's IP.

EDIT....this was in reply to Chaosomega....been a few posts since then!

Also, worth considering..GW are a lot more web savvy than you think. And all those posts on all those Forums...are still there. Bring those to the Court, and you have pretty much proven their intent to trade off of GW's IP without permission, leaving CH on an exceptionally sticky wicket.

Just like CH is using GW IP to trade, aftermarket parts manufacturers are using VW, Honda, Suzuki, Ford, etc. IP to trade. Its really no different.

@Agamemnon2

I agree

@Branderic

They still haven't relabled the individual bitz yet or the page of space marine accessories such as pre-heresy thousand sons....Like I said, long way still to go to be as generic as some of the others out there.

@Hulksmash

I don't think they will change the name Thousand Sons since it is not trademarked.

Polonius wrote:I don't want to sound like a spoilsport, but since nothing has been proven yet, how about we lay off calling CH communists or thieves. They post here, and it's insulting and not adding to the discussion.

agreed, it amuses me how often people call GW evil and have nothing but bad things to say about how they treat small companies...and now that this is happening legal or not most people are siding with GW and calling for CH's head

Interestingly, actions taken after an action has been filed to correct the problem cannot be introduced as evidence of the problem. I forget what rule it was, but it's a pretty explicit rule.

Polonius wrote:Interestingly, actions taken after an action has been filed to correct the problem cannot be introduced as evidence of the problem. I forget what rule it was, but it's a pretty explicit rule.

so if CH goes through the whole web site and updates everything...and by some strange twist no one at GW bothered to get a screen print of things before the changes...GW's case disappears?

I'm pretty sure GW's lawyers already collected the evidence they needed, and if they haven't, they are certainly going about it now. But thats effectively what it sounds like.

ironicsilence wrote:

Polonius wrote:Interestingly, actions taken after an action has been filed to correct the problem cannot be introduced as evidence of the problem. I forget what rule it was, but it's a pretty explicit rule.

so if CH goes through the whole web site and updates everything...and by some strange twist no one at GW bothered to get a screen print of things before the changes...GW's case disappears?

Not exactly. This rule is for things such as when somebody drowns in a pool, and the owner then puts in a new gate. You can't introduce the new gate as evidence that the owner new the old one was unsafe.

So I'm assuming GW has old screen caps, but even if they don't, they could still proceed. What GW can't do is tell the jury that since CH changed the website, they knew they were wrong.

Guy I used to work with had a nifty tool which allowed you to download entire websites.

Not entirely sure how it worked, and I suspect it's of dubious legality, but it's certainly possible!

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Funny part is they're already changing the names on the website to be more generic. Have a lot more to go but they started

It's a bit late for that. Only makes them look guilty now.

Agreed.

You guys know that nobody is "guilty" in a civil action, right?

Branderic wrote:@Hulksmash

I don't think they will change the name Thousand Sons since it is not trademarked.

Pretty sure Horus Heresy is But I could be wrong, it happens pretty often to me. Unlike most of the internet....

ZING!!!!!!!

@Polonius

That's what you say! But yeah, there isn't guilt in civil action

Yeah, I'm siding w/GW pretty much based on the way CH handled their site and stuff. Now if it happened to Microart, Scribor, or Avatars of War I'd be sad and on their side since they don't blantantly wave their.....stuff...at GW

Polonius wrote:You guys know that nobody is "guilty" in a civil action, right?

Nonsense, everybody is guilty of something, it might not have anything to do with the case on hand, but they're still guilty

Polonius wrote:You guys know that nobody is "guilty" in a civil action, right?

I do! I work in Insurance, so I know some stuff.


Can I have a cookie for this?

Polonius wrote:I don't want to sound like a spoilsport, but since nothing has been proven yet, how about we lay off calling CH communists or thieves. They post here, and it's insulting and not adding to the discussion.

+1

@Hulksmash

I see no mention of Horus Heresy

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&pageMode=multi&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=5&aId=3900002&start=6

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Funny part is they're already changing the names on the website to be more generic. Have a lot more to go but they started

It's a bit late for that. Only makes them look guilty now.

I disagree. I still stand by the assertion that there is "nominal use" law that allows other companies to use trademarked words to describe their products able to fit or work with another product (again there is precedent for this in other markets). I am changing the names until this is sorted out in any case. To see that as an admission of guilt, well, that is your call.

still on page 11 so apologies for the lagging, will try to play catch up.

Mr M
On the other hand, even setting aside the diversity and choice provided by what I will call "aftermarket" supplies as this is the term used in scale modelling, they are also providing benefit for the main producer (GW)
The latter can produce a single product and gain benefits of long production runs of SM's for instance without the necessity of incurring development costs for extra moulds.

This does not exclude the possibility of producing an alternative of their own at a later date. You seem to be stuck on the concept of a single producer.
Is it not better for the gaming industry to have some diversity? Or are GW simply trying to stifle competition and maintain a monopoly, rather than protecting IP?

I would suggest that the aftermarket caters more to the modelling aspect of the hobby whereas those predominantly interested in gaming would be less inclined to convert, preferring to wait for GW to issue a fully developed article.
This suggests a lower volume of production for people who wish for a more individual collection. It has already been stated that most of the aftermarket conversion pieces heavily rely on purchasing the GW product to enable the conversion.

The demand for the aftermarket conversion parts would drop as and when GW produced the full model themselves imho.
There is room enough for aftermarket suppliers. I really fail to see how the likes of Chapterhouse threaten GW's hegemony on the gaming world.
It is boldly stated in the case pdf by their own lawyers that GW is the biggest company, globally.

GW protecting their IP is one thing and fair enough, but it need not be mutually exclusive of a healthy diverse hobby industry.

Indeed not. Other companies remain free to create their own games and models.

It's when you use IP not your own you run afoul, which is seemingly what CH have done.

Polonius wrote:You guys know that nobody is "guilty" in a civil action, right?

is that legal advice?

I'm surprised that nobody has brought up the other popular thread in here - Mantic's 'Kaos' Dwarfs.

vitki wrote:I'm surprised that nobody has brought up the other popular thread in here - Mantic's 'Kaos' Dwarfs.

All fantasy figures are more generic than SF ones, unless you rip off a distinctive unique character. Space Marines as depicted in GW art and designs are unique to them.

Again,all of this is just in the initial stages - so really, pronouncements of guilt are more than a little premature.