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Well, being an old-fashioned person, I don't think Eldrad really fits with my Alaitoc theme.

Probably not? It depends on whether or not your Alaitoc Farseer possesses one of the few remaining gems that Eldrad split his consciousness into.

On the brightside, your Pathfinders and Rangers are more useful. =)

Thunderfrog wrote:Probably not? It depends on whether or not your Alaitoc Farseer possesses one of the few remaining gems that Eldrad split his consciousness into.

On the brightside, your Pathfinders and Rangers are more useful. =)

Ye, I've actually used the squads I have in some practice battles. Random, but when they do hit it's glorious.

Arschbombe wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:
While almost everybody here seems to be exited about Eldrad, I'll leave this sucker at home. Special IC's have a bad taste and if you don't want to piss off your opponent, do the same.

This is outmoded thinking going back to the days of opponent consent. The newer codices are full of special characters that change the way their armies work. They're much more commonly seen, at least here in the states, and I've never seen any disgruntlement over SCs. Creed is everywhere, Logan is everywhere, Draigo is everywhere. There's no reason not to have Eldrad too.

I completely agree. They are in the codex for a reason.... TO USE. I have not had a single game where someone said anything about my special characters. Once some called my Eldrad a big pile of cheese. This was as he assaulted him with Land Raider filled with a bunch on terminators and Logan Grimnar. I just looked at him and laughed.

Hello, Dakka!

I have just read the new rulebook and after having to accept all those terrible changes we'll have to deal got some questions about weapons reference chart. What do they mean by exarch deathspinner with assault 4???? So I don't have to by additional deathspinner any more or I get assault 8 if I do??? And there is also a separate section for the singing spear - it looks like it still have str 9 against armor!!! Correct me please if I'm wrong...

Abu_Basha wrote:Hello, Dakka!

I have just read the new rulebook and after having to accept all those terrible changes we'll have to deal got some questions about weapons reference chart. What do they mean by exarch deathspinner with assault 4???? So I don't have to by additional deathspinner any more or I get assault 8 if I do??? And there is also a separate section for the singing spear - it looks like it still have str 9 against armor!!! Correct me please if I'm wrong...

The exarch gun is Assault 4 because it is two Assault 2 guns. You do not get Assault 8. Yes, the singing spear is still defined by the c odex.

pretre wrote:

Abu_Basha wrote:Hello, Dakka!

I have just read the new rulebook and after having to accept all those terrible changes we'll have to deal got some questions about weapons reference chart. What do they mean by exarch deathspinner with assault 4???? So I don't have to by additional deathspinner any more or I get assault 8 if I do??? And there is also a separate section for the singing spear - it looks like it still have str 9 against armor!!! Correct me please if I'm wrong...

The exarch gun is Assault 4 because it is two Assault 2 guns. You do not get Assault 8. Yes, the singing spear is still defined by the c odex.

Way for them to make the Singing Spear worth that 3 points.

So i tested out Falcons for the first time today. I am sad to say even after guiding and fortuning them I was not very impressed. The only nice part was that they carried a few troops. Maybe I need to try them in more games. Both of them were taken out by the same seargent with a meltabomb. That may have been to poor play on my part or good rolls on his part but either way they just weren't doing what I wanted them too. I'll give them another shot next game though just to verify. But like I said, The pulse lasers rarely hit and when they did they still needed a 4+ to glance/penn. Maybe I just had a bad experience? How has the falcon treated you in 6th?

On a second note, The jet council still rocks socks off if played right. Witchblades cant punch trough even rear armour with any kind of consistency but singing spears sure as heck do. I found them to be very useful at crushing rhinos and their cargo. They still draw a ton of shots and hold out well. I think I learned to not keep them in rapid fire range of bolters though. Enough shots will cause wounds. But they do draw a ton of heavy weapon fire away from my other units.

My fire dragons made their points back and much more from one round of shooting. They still rock :-) They only reason I actually enjoyed my falcons this game is because one took dragons.

Thus you find the inherent flaw in a Falcon.

It's a long range weapon platform. It's meant to always stay so far away that it isn't even in assault, but you find yourself tempted to give it people to carry.

In 5th this wasn't so bad. Fly one onto a far away or isolated objective with some troops in the back and fire away all game. In this edition the troops have to be out of the tank to be effective. I've used one in a couple games and found this loadout to be my favorite.

Falcon,

Pulse Laser and EML or BL.

Embark 6 Pathfinders or 4 Dark Reapers + Exarch.


Then, you fly the falcon and payload to whatever objective is the best choice within 48 or 36 inches from the enemy and go to town shooting.


Just an aside. Your Eldar tanks should never get assaulted unless it's an intended trade...(IE: You choose to fly behind a russ to explode it because it's worth trading the Falcon for in your situation.) Even if you have to fly 48 inches out and lose your shooting for a turn, it's just not worth losing a tank to a meltabomb.

Thunderfrog wrote:Thus you find the inherent flaw in a Falcon.

It's a long range weapon platform. It's meant to always stay so far away that it isn't even in assault, but you find yourself tempted to give it people to carry.

In 5th this wasn't so bad. Fly one onto a far away or isolated objective with some troops in the back and fire away all game. In this edition the troops have to be out of the tank to be effective. I've used one in a couple games and found this loadout to be my favorite.

Falcon,

Pulse Laser and EML or BL.

Embark 6 Pathfinders or 4 Dark Reapers + Exarch.


Then, you fly the falcon and payload to whatever objective is the best choice within 48 or 36 inches from the enemy and go to town shooting.


Just an aside. Your Eldar tanks should never get assaulted unless it's an intended trade...(IE: You choose to fly behind a russ to explode it because it's worth trading the Falcon for in your situation.) Even if you have to fly 48 inches out and lose your shooting for a turn, it's just not worth losing a tank to a meltabomb.

I never knew how much one meltabomb could do. We named that sergeant Rambo for the game. He nuked both falcons back to back. I was backed into a corner from the first turn do to my opponent stealing initiative and then having 2 solid drop pod placements to block me in as well. I also never realized what horrid things a meltabomb could do. Now I know. We both laughed out of the sheer hilarity of this lone man reaking havoc behind my lines. I then had eldrad throw his spear into Rambos face. That ended things. Sheesh.... Eldrad has to do everything.

You dont have your falcon guided then though?Wouldnt it just be more beneficial to take a bs4 wraithlord? Thats almost what I am leaning towards now. That and i like the lords better. Slowing building a solid Wraith army.

I try to avoid the trap of not doing anything that isn't fortuned or guided. BS 3 is unfortunate (lolpun), but you have three shots needing 4's and 4s vs AV12.

A wraithlord is nice too, but I feel like they need another type of babysitting altogether and to be fair, you were asking about Falcons and not whats better, Falcons or shooty Wraithlords.

I suppose you could take 4 Reapers, an Exarch, and Eldrad with Divination lore. Then you could Prescience both the Reapers and the Falcon for shooting purposes. (Or Rangers.. but the Eldar Longrifle is 36 inches and not 48 like the reapers.)

With your 3rd power you have a pretty good shot at either denying cover saves or granting a 4+ invul to either the tank or the shooters.

Even backed into a corner you should have been able to skim over whatever was in your way and get 48 inches away from the baddies. He also can't throw melta bombs, nor assault on turn 1, so you COULD have avoided losing them both.

Lastly, as to wraithlords, I love them this edition. There's something about calling out that Sergeant with a Power Fist and smooshing him to paste before he can strike you back. On the other end of the spectrum, the sergeant dips the challenge and you smash some marines with impunity. I suppose the only issue would be a squad which every model is equipped with bombs.

My current WiP is 6 Wraithlords, 4 stabby with just a Shuriken Cannon and a Sword, and 2 shooting with EML/BL.

Thunderfrog wrote:I try to avoid the trap of not doing anything that isn't fortuned or guided. BS 3 is unfortunate (lolpun), but you have three shots needing 4's and 4s vs AV12.

A wraithlord is nice too, but I feel like they need another type of babysitting altogether and to be fair, you were asking about Falcons and not whats better, Falcons or shooty Wraithlords.

I suppose you could take 4 Reapers, an Exarch, and Eldrad with Divination lore. Then you could Prescience both the Reapers and the Falcon for shooting purposes. (Or Rangers.. but the Eldar Longrifle is 36 inches and not 48 like the reapers.)

With your 3rd power you have a pretty good shot at either denying cover saves or granting a 4+ invul to either the tank or the shooters.

Even backed into a corner you should have been able to skim over whatever was in your way and get 48 inches away from the baddies. He also can't throw melta bombs, nor assault on turn 1, so you COULD have avoided losing them both.

Lastly, as to wraithlords, I love them this edition. There's something about calling out that Sergeant with a Power Fist and smooshing him to paste before he can strike you back. On the other end of the spectrum, the sergeant dips the challenge and you smash some marines with impunity. I suppose the only issue would be a squad which every model is equipped with bombs.

My current WiP is 6 Wraithlords, 4 stabby with just a Shuriken Cannon and a Sword, and 2 shooting with EML/BL.

And you are going to do that at 2000 points i assume to Take advantage of the Dual FOC at that point level? That would be sweet. At 2000 points I would still take advantage of the FOC but slightly different. 3 lords, a group of 3 walkers, eldrad, avatar, and the wraithseer if my opponent agrees. But I may come up with a list that take less wraithguard at 2000 pts and leave more room for wraithguard.


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and that Uber gunboat with reapers, falcon, and eldrad sounds incredibly shooty, and very awesome. Never thought of that.


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My 2 optional 2000 pt lists around breaking the double FOC are

If Forgeworld isn't usable..

Eldrad, Avatar, 10 WG's w/ Spiritseer, 6 rangers, 5 rangers, 5 rangers, 6x Wraithlord w/ EML & BL.

If Forgeworld is usable...

Eldrad, Avatar, Wraithseer w/ Dcannon, 10 WG's w/ spiritseer, 5 rangers, 5 rangers, 3x Wraitlord w/ EML & BL, 3x Wraithlord w/ Sword & SL.

A point of note...Eldrad doesn't have a spear. He has a staff. Which cannot be thrown. The only things he can do range wise are Shuriken Pistol, Mind War, and Eldritch Storm. Or other spells from the main rule book if you decide to swap spells.

As far as Falcon Grav Tanks go, I haven't really been impressed with them ever. I don't like that it has such an average Ballistic Skill considering the descriptions of most ranged Eldar technology has them painted with super high tech targetters and range finders and all that other stuff.

In my opinion you are paying WAY too many points for a weapon platform that doesn't have enough shots to warrant the cost of the platform. Especially considering how average the BS is.

To get them to shoot better you have to add a farseer. And now the cost just skyrocketed up so far that it really isn't worth it. Especially now that Holo Fields are worthless.

In 6th edition vehicles can't end their movement within 18" of anything with a krak grenade, meltabomb, EMP grenade, haywire grenade, or str5+ anymore.

You will need to give up shooting to do this a lot of the time, but moving 12" away from infantry in order to keep firing will just get your tank blown up. You gotta go the whole 30".

I recently killed two ghost arks with a unit of 6 fire warriors (EMP grenades). From my perspective it was clear to me that my necron opponent needed to flat-out those ghost arks away from me or I was going to nail them. But he wanted to move 6" and shoot my fire warriors, which he did, and the fire warriors made their armor saves and killed the arks.

It's clear to me that when I pick up mech Eldar again for 6th edition, there's going to have to be even more zooming around than usual.

After Re-reading the codex, I realized eldrads staff isn't counted as a singing spear. Thank you for pointing that out. For some reason I thought it read something along the lines of "count as singing spear with XYZ extra stuff"

I will also take all the warnings of not gettng near ANYONE with a tank in fear of the grenades that wreck stuff now. Also another reason Why I like using wraithlords more. They are much harder to instakill.

Razgriz22 wrote:Why I like using wraithlords more. They are much harder to instakill.

Grenades work on Wraithlords too. Which isn't saying much as they're easier to kill than the tanks from shooting anyway.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:Why I like using wraithlords more. They are much harder to instakill.

Grenades work on Wraithlords too. Which isn't saying much as they're easier to kill than the tanks from shooting anyway.

I know grenades work on wraithlords as well. But they have 3 wounds. And T8 makes them pretty hard to hurt unless you are using your anti tank shots to hit them.

I am in confusion though about your second statement. They are easier to kill then tanks? I dont believe that.

When you shoot at the lord he gets a 3+ save unless it gets penetrated. The tank only gets a jink save. And only if it moves. The tank has a chance of receiving a penetrating hit and the roll on the chart can result in an explosion even if it still has 2 other hull points. With AP1 recieving a +2 and AP2 getting +1 there is a better chance that can happen. AP1 AP2 and AP3 all mean the same thing to the lord, he doesnt get his armour save. There is no chance of an instakill. If any gun gets to the tanks rear armour then it can even be damaged by S4 guns or attacks. The Lord cant be damaged by anything less then S5. The difference is pretty minimal. But when the tank would be getting glanced to death by S6 shots the Lord would be making most of its Armour saves. Thats just how I see it.

When was the last time you were allowed a save on a Wraithlord? For me it was 3rd edition and people hadn't switched armies yet.

MCs and vehicles are much closer in terms of durability now. Missiles and Lascannons need 4+ and 3+ respectively to damage both Wraithlords and Falcons, they both get 5++ saves (the Falcon just has to shuffle slightly to get it and there is no downside, the Lord has to hug cover) as anything you shoot at a Lord is going to be ignoring its save most of the time. The Falcon is also more durable against lower S weaponry, which can't do any damage at all against it but at least forces some saves on the Lord.

In terms of offensive power they are fairly similar, but the lack of mobility and the need to babysit the Lord is a pain. The most common loadout for a Falcon now is probably going to be naked with a Missile Launcher, which works out as 135 points for 3 S8 shots (2 of which are AP2), so 1.5 S8 hits per turn. Wraithlords are 155pts for 2 S8 shots, so 1.33 S8 hits per turn but with 12" less range (on one of the shots).

So essentially for 20 points less you lose some sub par assault ability and that's about it. Instead you end up with better damage output (both average and maximum), longer range, transport ability and better mobility on a more mobile platform which is just as durable.

Every gun on the board doesnt have AP3. So yes obviously the heavy rounds are going to be fired at the Lord. That means less heavy rounds being fired at other things. Its going to be a shot magnet. Which is great. In a list where you take 1 Lord you probably have 2 others. And Maybe even an avatar. Taking them all out fast enough will he hard. Stick them to some form of cover and that will help a lot. Not saying they are leagues better then a Falcon. They are probably pretty comparable. I just personally like the model better. But I will continue to try to figure out the best way to use a falcon in my games as well.

Powerguy wrote:MCs and vehicles are much closer in terms of durability now. Missiles and Lascannons need 4+ and 3+ respectively to damage both Wraithlords and Falcons, they both get 5++ saves (the Falcon just has to shuffle slightly to get it and there is no downside, the Lord has to hug cover) as anything you shoot at a Lord is going to be ignoring its save most of the time. The Falcon is also more durable against lower S weaponry, which can't do any damage at all against it but at least forces some saves on the Lord.

In terms of offensive power they are fairly similar, but the lack of mobility and the need to babysit the Lord is a pain. The most common loadout for a Falcon now is probably going to be naked with a Missile Launcher, which works out as 135 points for 3 S8 shots (2 of which are AP2), so 1.5 S8 hits per turn. Wraithlords are 155pts for 2 S8 shots, so 1.33 S8 hits per turn but with 12" less range (on one of the shots).

So essentially for 20 points less you lose some sub par assault ability and that's about it. Instead you end up with better damage output (both average and maximum), longer range, transport ability and better mobility on a more mobile platform which is just as durable.

Wraithlords have cc potential and dual flamers. The latter are great if the enemy outflanks (hello Genestealers) close to your front ranks.

Is 20 points worth one kill per turn in assault, in exchange for significantly reduced abilities in a number of other areas?

Assault based outflankers really aren't anywhere near as much of a threat to any kind of mobile army now since you always get to react to them before they can do anything.

Powerguy wrote:Is 20 points worth one kill per turn in assault, in exchange for significantly reduced abilities in a number of other areas?

Assault based outflankers really aren't anywhere near as much of a threat to any kind of mobile army now since you always get to react to them before they can do anything.

Before they can do anything? Well, shooty outflankers can still be a threat. And Genestealer? What else should they do other than infiltrating or outflanking?

Of course shooting based outflankers can be effective, but most of those tend to require weapons stronger than flamers to deal with (i.e they are MEQ and/or vehicles).

There is a big difference between infiltrating and outflanking. Infiltrating Stealers are going to be out in front of your army and your heavy hitters will be screened by less important units. Outflanking Stealers probably arrive behind you, but they show up in a randomised location and can't do anything for a turn.

Well, if the enemy, Nids, plays with several infiltrating Genestealers, they can put pressure upon your army. Combine this with some fast moving bugs and you eventually get in trouble. Mech would be the best solution here. But fully mech lost an edge in the 6th.