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stuffah wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:A MC eldar list :-).

Isn't that what the Elfzilla was? Avatar, Wraithlords, not sure about the rest...

Wraithseer as 2nd HQ.

While almost everybody here seems to be exited about Eldrad, I'll leave this sucker at home. Special IC's have a bad taste and if you don't want to piss off your opponent, do the same.

Razgriz22 wrote:I may have went over the line saying that Eldrad is the ONLY great HQ choice we have. The avatar is amazing as well but I never saw tooo many lists last edition with him in it. Hopefully there will be more in this edition.

A standard Farseer is a good buy as well but I always pick Eldrad over him unless the game is 1000 pts or less. If he goes up in price but gets even better then Im mostly ok with that. But if he stays the same or gets worse and he has a price increase.... that will just suck.

And yea some people say Eldrad is cheese.... but come on who doesnt like a liiiiitle cheese. Especially when xenos as a whole dont often get too much cheese.

I used the Avatar religiously in the last edition, he was almost always a wise point investment. This edition will probably see a bit of a drop in use because Eldrad is so much better now.

Smaller games I'll use a standard farseer. I'll often try to fit in some Phoenix Lords now and again because I've just always liked them. As has always been for me, the Autarch will continue to just be printed word in my codex.

stuffah wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:A MC eldar list :-).

Isn't that what the Elfzilla was? Avatar, Wraithlords, not sure about the rest...

Yup, thats what that was. Certainly more viable this edition^^

Khe-Loc wrote:

stuffah wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:A MC eldar list :-).

Isn't that what the Elfzilla was? Avatar, Wraithlords, not sure about the rest...

Yup, thats what that was. Certainly more viable this edition^^

Not sure. We will see more snipers who can down WL's pretty quickly.

The most effective footdar lists I was seeing at the end of 5th were like the one used by Reecius--in a nutshell:

Eldrad
Avatar
10 harlequins with kisses
1-2 units of fire dragons with firepike exarch
1-3 units of 10 DAs
5 rangers
3 jetbikes
sometimes a unit of up to 20 guardians with a platform
2 EML/BL wraithlords
squadron of 3 dual-SL warwalkers

I played variants of this list right at the end of 5th edition and found it worked pretty well.

Eldrad got a boost this edition in that psychic hoods are nerfed. Guide and fortune are your bread & butter with the list, and now you don't have to make all those chancy rolloffs to get them to work, even when you're right up with the enemy.

Also, getting the benefits of fearless from the Avatar while not having to take no-retreat wounds when you lose combat is huge for guardians who get caught in assault. I lost a lot of guardians and more than a few harlies that way.

The new rally rules are generally beneficial for Eldar when not fearless.No more watching those 9 guardians fall back off the table because they can't regroup. Units of 3 bikes or 3+warlock will now always be able to attempt to regroup as long as there's at least one left.

It's easier now for wraithlords and warwalkers to get cover, although it's only a 5+ save unless you have ruins.

6E vehicle damage allocation is generally beneficial for squadrons, both because of not losing immobilzed vehicles anymore and because of the way one walker has to be wrecked before the next closest one takes any damage at all.

Fire dragons, as noted above, benefit from the change to the tank hunter rule. Also they can now rip up monstrous creatures and walkers with their free meltabombs.

3 guided dual-SL warwalkers get an expected 3 glances on AR12, just enough to wreck it unless it's the side of a battlewagon. No more shooting your entire army at that rhino and only blowing off the storm bolter.

Jetbikes that move 48" a turn? Since their major function is to grab last-minute objectives anyway, that makes them even better at their job.

Smash attack is a nice bonus for the avatar when fighting vehicles. I've seen him get bogged against dreads more than once.

The big nerf compared with the way footdar was in 5th is the change to veil of tears that makes it possible for everybody to shoot at harlequins all the time if they can see them. They were really vital as a counterattack/fire brigade unit that could remain mostly safe until the mid-endgame. Overwatch is also not real helpful for units with T3 and a 5+ save. Maybe there's something else in the Eldar list, or something in an ally list that can fill this role now. But if there is, I don't know what it is.

So, at 2000+, with two Primary Detachments, can we have two avatars now...? not sure if it is prudent, but Im curious.

wuestenfux wrote:

Khe-Loc wrote:

stuffah wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:A MC eldar list :-).

Isn't that what the Elfzilla was? Avatar, Wraithlords, not sure about the rest...

Yup, thats what that was. Certainly more viable this edition^^

Not sure. We will see more snipers who can down WL's pretty quickly.

Honestly I don´t think snipers are that much of a threat to wraithlords. Yeah sure, they wound them on a 4+, but usually you get your 3+ armour save against most of the sniper shots.

The death of wraithlords wer and always will be lascannons as they completely nullify their save and can handle their toughness easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gangrel767 wrote:So, at 2000+, with two Primary Detachments, can we have two avatars now...? not sure if it is prudent, but Im curious.

Isn´t the avatar an uinique model and there can always be only one?

I know he used to be but I don't have my codex with me...

Gangrel767 wrote:I know he used to be but I don't have my codex with me...

On p61 it says that your army can only ever contain 1 avatar...

But aren´t 2 FOC technically 2 armies?

Khe-Loc wrote:

Gangrel767 wrote:I know he used to be but I don't have my codex with me...

On p61 it says that your army can only ever contain 1 avatar...

But aren´t 2 FOC technically 2 armies?

By that logic, I can run 2 Eldrads yes?

Each detachment imo is part of the army, so are limited by the overall limitations

kenshin620 wrote:

Khe-Loc wrote:

Gangrel767 wrote:I know he used to be but I don't have my codex with me...

On p61 it says that your army can only ever contain 1 avatar...

But aren´t 2 FOC technically 2 armies?

By that logic, I can run 2 Eldrads yes?

Each detachment imo is part of the army, so are limited by the overall limitations

Yeah... Seems much more logical that way

Well, for Special Characters it specifically says they are unique, and only one can be taken per army (PG 110 BRB), and an Army may have multiple detachments, but it is still one army, so no you couldn't have multiple Eldrads, but I do not see the same verbiage for the Avatar.

I just grabbed my codex and even on page 61, it does not say Unique, or your army may only contain one. At least I'm not seeing it in my book.

Another bonus for Eldar Rangers I just noticed--they can jump off of tall buildings unharmed.

The rules for battlements and ruins (pp 95 & 99) say that models can jump down from battlements or the upper floors of ruins in a single move if they take an impact test.

The impact test rules say (p95) that an impact test is exactly like a dangerous terrain test.

Models with the move through cover rule automatically pass dangerous terrain tests. So Eldar Rangers, Scorpions with Karandas or an exarch with the right power (and SM scouts of all kinds and a couple other units) can jump down any distance unharmed.

Not sure if this applies to pathfinders or harlequins, though. My feeling is that the way the rule is written, ironically, pathfinders and harlequins might have to roll the impact test.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Another bonus for Eldar Rangers I just noticed--they can jump off of tall buildings unharmed.

The rules for battlements and ruins (pp 95 & 99) say that models can jump down from battlements or the upper floors of ruins in a single move if they take an impact test.

The impact test rules say (p95) that an impact test is exactly like a dangerous terrain test.

Models with the move through cover rule automatically pass dangerous terrain tests. So Eldar Rangers, Scorpions with Karandas or an exarch with the right power (and SM scouts of all kinds and a couple other units) can jump down any distance unharmed.

Not sure if this applies to pathfinders or harlequins, though. My feeling is that the way the rule is written, ironically, pathfinders and harlequins might have to roll the impact test.

No, on p34 it states that the dangerous terrain ignoring effect of "move trough cover" does not work when jumping off buildings.

Dang, you're right (it's on page 40)

Too bad. I was looking forward to flying rangers. :O

Flavius Infernus wrote:Dang, you're right (it's on page 40)

Too bad. I was looking forward to flying rangers. :O

In the german version of the rulebook it´s on page 34 o.O

Whatever, I´m not sure if jumping out of buildings is the most efficient way to get your guys outta there

Fire dragons, as noted above, benefit from the change to the tank hunter rule. Also they can now rip up monstrous creatures and walkers with their free meltabombs.

Flavius: In the above list, are the Fire Dragons on foot?

Couple more thoughts.

While meltabombs are nice on fire dragons, you have to remember that they are Unwieldy so they strike at I1. Great against MC's, but you have to live long enough to use them. Pretty much any MC is going to kill off a couple before they get to go.

Also harlequins will get hit hard by overwatch on a large squad. Hopefully they will be charging a unit that is already in combat with a guardian squad, avatar, or wraithguard. You could also use scorpions as the same role, possibly with kharandras. High armor, less stealth but more armor. Worth a try at least.

wuestenfux wrote:

Fire dragons, as noted above, benefit from the change to the tank hunter rule. Also they can now rip up monstrous creatures and walkers with their free meltabombs.

Flavius: In the above list, are the Fire Dragons on foot?

Yes, and I was skeptical about that too until I tried it. One mitigating factor is that, with so many targets around, FDs aren't always the highest priority. The other major factor is that it's really important to take the exarch with crack shot and a fire pike. The 24" effective range for a shot that hits on a 2+ means that the exarch actually does most of the vehicle killing, and the 4-5 other guys in the unit are just ablative wounds for him.

But the two BL wraithlords (Eldrad can fortune them both) and the Avatar's melta are still typically the things that take out AR14 vehicles, so the FDs are mostly about killing light vehicles and heavy infantry.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Fire dragons, as noted above, benefit from the change to the tank hunter rule. Also they can now rip up monstrous creatures and walkers with their free meltabombs.

Flavius: In the above list, are the Fire Dragons on foot?

Yes, and I was skeptical about that too until I tried it. One mitigating factor is that, with so many targets around, FDs aren't always the highest priority. The other major factor is that it's really important to take the exarch with crack shot and a fire pike. The 24" effective range for a shot that hits on a 2+ means that the exarch actually does most of the vehicle killing, and the 4-5 other guys in the unit are just ablative wounds for him.

But the two BL wraithlords (Eldrad can fortune them both) and the Avatar's melta are still typically the things that take out AR14 vehicles, so the FDs are mostly about killing light vehicles and heavy infantry.

Okay, I understand, the FD's are not on top of the enemy's priority target schedule. I agree that an Exarch with the right weapon and upgrade is mandatory here.

racta wrote:Couple more thoughts.

While meltabombs are nice on fire dragons, you have to remember that they are Unwieldy so they strike at I1. Great against MC's, but you have to live long enough to use them. Pretty much any MC is going to kill off a couple before they get to go.

Also harlequins will get hit hard by overwatch on a large squad. Hopefully they will be charging a unit that is already in combat with a guardian squad, avatar, or wraithguard. You could also use scorpions as the same role, possibly with kharandras. High armor, less stealth but more armor. Worth a try at least.

Good point on the unwieldy meltabombs.

I just double-checked, and harlequins I guess do get their normal VoT 4+ cover saves against overwatch fire. I guess a unit of storm guardians with a conceal warlock would also get their 5+ cover.

But yeah, maybe scorpions with stealth from Karandas (especially if they can charge through cover) and move through cover and fortune would have the strongest defense against overwatch--not that overwatch is necessarily a huge thing, but it is a factor.

I don't really think that overwatch is going to affect harlequins very much.. even from something like a blob of lootaz. The shots are fired at BS1, and harlequins in area terrain have a 2+ cover save..

wuestenfux wrote:

Fire dragons, as noted above, benefit from the change to the tank hunter rule. Also they can now rip up monstrous creatures and walkers with their free meltabombs.

Flavius: In the above list, are the Fire Dragons on foot?

Sounds pretty weird if you havn´t tried it, but it does work suprisingly well^^

I totally forgot about the cover save for harlequins during overwatch. A 4+ means the most you are really losing is 1 or 2. Not game breaking. Against 30 shoota boyz it might be more like 3-4, but you should be able to set up a better assault on them because of their footprint, preferably through cover for a high save.

Not that big of an issue unless your opponent is a master of rolling 6's.

One question i have on the Harlequins is do the grenades that the shadowseer have keep them from striking at I1 for going thru terrian?

Presto wrote:One question i have on the Harlequins is do the grenades that the shadowseer have keep them from striking at I1 for going thru terrian?

They all have flip belts.... which ignores terrain. They hit at initiative (unless enemy's wargear bring 'em down).

The Shadowseer gives the squad defensive 'nades too... don't forget that.

whembly wrote:

Presto wrote:One question i have on the Harlequins is do the grenades that the shadowseer have keep them from striking at I1 for going thru terrian?

They all have flip belts.... which ignores terrain. They hit at initiative (unless enemy's wargear bring 'em down).

The Shadowseer gives the squad defensive 'nades too... don't forget that.

the rules in 6th are different than 5th... in 5th you lost Initiative if you had to take a test, which flip belts meant you didnt,

but in 6th, it doesnt matter if you take a test or not, only that you went thru a piece of difficult terrian...

Hallucination grenades count as assault grenades, and so long as the shadowseer with the hallucination grenade pack is alive, the entire unit counts as having them.

So without the shadowseer, the harlys would be int1 when assualting thru cover?

Judging by your correction of whembly a couple posts up, you appear to have knowledge of the new rules. I suspect you already know the answer to that question.