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Manchu wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:By his own admission Guilliman has turned his back on the Imperium. This is a betrayal. He says it himself. He believes it is for a worthy goal. He believes that the Emperor will forgive him.

I am quite shocked by your inability to distinguish the argument you are making from the meaning of the text. The text makes it clear that the actions could and would be considered betrayal by those who do not understand them. It then goes on to say that the Emperor would understand them.

I am shocked by your inability to comprehend the English language. What he says is that the Emperor would understand his betrayal while others would not.

Nope. There is a parallel structure contrasting the words betrayal and salvation. The idea is to create a tension between his actions as they would by misunderstood and as they would be properly understood.

Manchu wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

Manchu wrote:Guilliman thought others would consider it a betrayal -- but the Emperor would not.

Magnus thought something similar.

If Magnus thought that then he must have had an exceptionally bad memory from when the Emperor told him the exact opposite in a face-to-face meeting in front of other Primarchs as the main decree of a council.

You seem to forget the Emperor made the decree to keep the peace, his threat wasn't a threat at all, it was merely a way of shutting up Russ and the other detractors. If the Emperor had meant the threat then the Space Wolves/Sisters of Silence/Custodes force would not have been given the orders to bring Magnus back to Terra, they'd have been ordered outright to eliminate Magnus and his legion. We know for a fact that the Emperor's orders were to bring Magnus back, that it was either Horus or the Horus/Daemon that changed the orders.

Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.

A Thousand Sons, p 356

So the Emperor decreed, so it was done unto Magnus the Traitor.

Manchu wrote:

Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.

A Thousand Sons, p 356

So the Emperor decreed, so it was done unto Magnus the Traitor.

Aye, and the Emperor brooded angrily on the Golden Throne for his personal failure all the way to the end.

Manchu wrote:

Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.

A Thousand Sons, p 356

So the Emperor decreed, so it was done unto Magnus the Traitor.

Did the Emperor send them there to kill Magnus? No he didn't, your argument, falls down immediately because of that simple fact. The Emperor DID NOT order Magnus be killed, his orders were "Bring Magnus to Terra for judgement".



Those last 5 words speak volumes.

Please tell me what you think that text means, particularly with regard to Constantin Valdor.

Also, no one dispute that Horus revised the Emperor's orders with regard to Magnus. But with regard to his legion? Horus's trick required no real talent: Russ was present when the Emperor decreed that Magnus would be his enemy should he defy the Council. Horus's revision would make sense to Russ.

The Emperor's decree was not just to shut up Primarchs like Russ. It was to impress upon Magnus the seriousness of the Council. Magnus betrayed the Emperor anyway. It then became Russ's duty to apprehend the traitor.

Chief Custodian that Valdor was, he would be under the impression the Thousand Sons were using sorcery because his man Amon was controlled by the False Thousand Son "Amon". Just like Russ thought Kasper was under the control of Thousand Sons. Hence Russ brought up "Magnus put a traitor in my ranks and is using sorcery." The Emperor is given no choice, he must act or risk losing time to a possible civil war/falling out in his own ranks which puts back the Crusade even further.

Valdor's personal problems he voiced and used to try and sway Russ. Just like Russ used his personal problems and opinions to try and sway The Emperor. Much the same as you use your personal opinions and whatnot to argue your points and I use mine and others use theirs.

We have 3 people who do things the Emperor most likely or they know won't like, but they trust the Emperor will see they didn't mean it in a "Traitor worthy of death" sense. That what they did, they did out of love or respect or honour of the Emperor, not out of hate and spite and thrown toys out of the cot sense that Horus has.

Think about it, if the Emperor really wanted to stop the use of psychic powers completely, he'd have outright killed the Librarians, Magnus and Thousand Sons, they were right there. He had to be seen to do something that would satisfy the detractors (who were outnumbered) while also not fully alienating those who were for Librarians and psychic powers. He's already down 2 legions, he'd lose a 3rd if the detractors got what they really wanted and then X amount of members of other legions.

What exactly the Emperor had in store for Magnus is not known. There is no reason to believe it was mercy. At best, death. At worst, to be chained for ten thousand years and more to the Golden Throne.

Manchu wrote:What exactly the Emperor had in store for Magnus is not known. There is no reason to believe it was mercy. At best, death. At worst, to be chained for ten thousand years and more to the Golden Throne.

But we do know he was needed for the Golden Throne. Chained to it isn't right either, we don't know. The Golden Throne pre-breakage might not have needed 24 hour sitting, the breaks blew a lot of things up, only the Emperor knew and as of yet no book is written from his view or what goes on in his mind, we all work on what we know from what others wrote.

To make a big speculation; Magnus risks himself to warm the big boss. Given we know nothing on the Emperors power limits we have no idea exactly why Magnus took that avenue. The Emperor is powerful enough to help ships navigate into a space where it would be impossible to do so without his guidance, but he does this without having to strain himself, it was no effort at all, something the next most powerful psyker (Magnus) couldn't do. He'd either have to concentrate everything on the navigation help or have his mind elsewhere. So we have an understanding the Emperor is at least X amount more powerful than Magnus. The Emperor knew Horus was doing what he was doing before Magnus arrived, so the Emperor most likely knows what everyone is doing while their doing it and doesn't need to focus on it, that he can still do this when Sisters of Silence are near him means his power is then X amount more than what a Sister can negate. So if Magnus warns the Emperor, Magnus is doing so in knowledge that the Emperor can do something, while standing right there on Terra, on the other side of the galaxy, which would have effects on beings on other side of the galaxy.

We just don't know how powerful the guy is, we do know he's a threat to the Gods of the Warp. For all we know the Emperor could be the same as Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars, a guy who, in further, post movie writings, can destroy a world he's nowhere near through the use of a force storm. The Emperor may very well be able to crush ships that are in the process of warp travel.
Now a person could say if he was capable of all that, then why send Astartes, etc on the crusade to bring worlds back into the fold? Same reason a Daemon needed Kasper's mind, without the names, you have no power. Magnus thought he had power over something, but he only had a certain name, not the right name.

Manchu wrote:Nope. There is a parallel structure contrasting the words betrayal and salvation. The idea is to create a tension between his actions as they would by misunderstood and as they would be properly understood.

Nope. There is a parallel structure comparing the words betrayal and salvation. The idea is to create tension between two concepts that are usually considered contrary but in this case are one and the same.

SkyD wrote:Chief Custodian that Valdor was, he would be under the impression the Thousand Sons were using sorcery because his man Amon was controlled by the False Thousand Son "Amon". Just like Russ thought Kasper was under the control of Thousand Sons. Hence Russ brought up "Magnus put a traitor in my ranks and is using sorcery." The Emperor is given no choice, he must act or risk losing time to a possible civil war/falling out in his own ranks which puts back the Crusade even further.

Valdor's personal problems he voiced and used to try and sway Russ. Just like Russ used his personal problems and opinions to try and sway The Emperor. Much the same as you use your personal opinions and whatnot to argue your points and I use mine and others use theirs.

We have 3 people who do things the Emperor most likely or they know won't like, but they trust the Emperor will see they didn't mean it in a "Traitor worthy of death" sense. That what they did, they did out of love or respect or honour of the Emperor, not out of hate and spite and thrown toys out of the cot sense that Horus has.

Think about it, if the Emperor really wanted to stop the use of psychic powers completely, he'd have outright killed the Librarians, Magnus and Thousand Sons, they were right there. He had to be seen to do something that would satisfy the detractors (who were outnumbered) while also not fully alienating those who were for Librarians and psychic powers. He's already down 2 legions, he'd lose a 3rd if the detractors got what they really wanted and then X amount of members of other legions.

FACT-Magnus admited that he had placed spies into space wolves , which justifies Wolfkings paranoia -and I'HATE PEOPLE WHO HAVE RED ONLY "THOUSAND SONS" and not "Prospero burns" and thus giving crapy arguments...
I'think ,like you said,that meeting with Amon(demon) pushed the Emperor toward's final ruling...

It really comes down to me at least, that the Emperor decreed psychic powers to be not used. Magnus defied this and knowingly disobeyed a direct order from the Emperor, effectively branding himself a traitor. IF it really came down to it, i don't think the Emperor would allow them to survive as a Legion for so openly disobeying him and for just the fact that all of them are affected by the warp in some way.

I think we'd be kidding ourselves to believe in any scenario in which Magnus would have come to Terra in chains willingly with Russ.

Manchu wrote:I think we'd be kidding ourselves to believe in any scenario in which Magnus would have come to Terra in chains willingly with Russ.

Why?

According to the Emperor's own word, Magnus was the Emperor's enemy. The Cyclops rationalized his arrogance by claiming it was for the best. Once Russ showed up to haul him away, Magnus would either have to (1) acknowledge that the Emperor still did not agree with him and now considered him an enemy -OR- (2) delude himself that the Emperor was grateful and that Russ had gone rogue. In either situation, Magnus would fight. In the second instance, he'd fight out of the same thin veneer of "loyalty" that he believed justified his betrayal. In the first instance, he'd fight because the Emperor would have demonstrated with finality the lack of vision Magnus had accused him of, at least deep down, since the Council of Nikaea. The idea that Magnus would simply hang his head and accept his fate is impossible -- if that was his character then he would have already accepted his fate at Nikaea. It doesn't get any more serious than the Emperor saying "obey me in this matter or you are my enemy and I will destroy you."

Manchu wrote: It then goes on to say that the Emperor would understand them.

No, he thinks the Emperor would understand.
Like me thinking Manchu would get off of that weird "all hail my spiritual liege" course . It may or may not happen.

Manchu wrote:Guilliman does indeed go to Terra, with a force that is capable -- unlike the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Custodes together -- of defeating Horus. His imminent arrival is what causes Horus to force the siege to a head by lowering the shields of his battle barge.

Sure he goes to Terra, someday. Just not in time.
And no, until you can show what Gulliman directs towards Terra, the source I know of is pretty clear its the combined might of loyalists that Horus deems a threat worth a gamble for a quick victory. ( Hint: 3 Legions are mentioned. Not 1 ).

So these Blood Angels and Imperial Fists and White Scars and Custodes and Imperial Army elements and Titans etc etc are the ones to be there, to defend , to slaughter the cannonfodder and endless hordes of Demons, and to finally route the traitors and masscre them on their way out. Do they have to defeat Horus? No, because this is meant as a last stand story, where the sacrifice of the Emperor makes sense. Not a wardian mr unbeatable easily wipes thew floor with Horus and his Emperor was so ashamed so he fled to his throne room and isn't coming out since 10 millenia.

There are altered stories , like the attack on Calth as shown in index astartes and the same attack on Calth shown in KNF.
Still similarities, but where index astartes didn't leave Gulliman as unaware fool ( cleansing of agrippa ) and the link to the AL article hinted on the Ultramarines beeing waylaid too, the HH is the most recent telling of the story and the only one actually available. This imminent arrival your referring to here, is it from Visions of heresy? Because the HH series isn't at the Siege yet.

consider this:

- horus was aware of the reliability of his 'minions'.
- the AL and the NL, got to distract the loyalists. The AL may had agreed to, the NL seem to be off on their own already.
- the WB just had to go for the UM. But not all of them, and the real goal is IMO to start these warp storms to seperate the loyalists and the attack on the UM is their deluded idea of having revenge.
- the NL didn't keep the DA busy enough, or precisely failed to imagine the DA could catch them.
- the AL tried to keep the White Scars away, but failed, tried to keep the Wolves away, but nearly failed too. Or maybe its one of the twins doing...
- So who was Horus asset to keep the UM off?
- the AL, again? The NL, who showed less interest in the whole assault on Terra?
- the WB, who couldn't leave the rest alone, maybe one could change its mind if not motivated to go there?
- the WE, IW, EC, DG, SoH, the Legions he planned to use to assail the Palace?
- the depleted TS, a 1k force?
Seriously, Horus had nothing left to oppose Gulliman if he wouldn't use his main force for this. But then, losses and the delay may be enough to ruin the attack on Terra. Ultramar is far in the east, to get there and beat it, to return to Terra and beat it too...

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote: It then goes on to say that the Emperor would understand them.

No, he thinks the Emperor would understand.
Like me thinking Manchu would get off of that weird "all hail my spiritual liege" course . It may or may not happen.

Manchu wrote:Guilliman does indeed go to Terra, with a force that is capable -- unlike the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Custodes together -- of defeating Horus. His imminent arrival is what causes Horus to force the siege to a head by lowering the shields of his battle barge.

Sure he goes to Terra, someday. Just not in time.
And no, until you can show what Gulliman directs towards Terra, the source I know of is pretty clear its the combined might of loyalists that Horus deems a threat worth a gamble for a quick victory. ( Hint: 3 Legions are mentioned. Not 1 ).

So these Blood Angels and Imperial Fists and White Scars and Custodes and Imperial Army elements and Titans etc etc are the ones to be there, to defend , to slaughter the cannonfodder and endless hordes of Demons, and to finally route the traitors and masscre them on their way out. Do they have to defeat Horus? No, because this is meant as a last stand story, where the sacrifice of the Emperor makes sense. Not a wardian mr unbeatable easily wipes thew floor with Horus and his Emperor was so ashamed so he fled to his throne room and isn't coming out since 10 millenia.

There are altered stories , like the attack on Calth as shown in index astartes and the same attack on Calth shown in KNF.
Still similarities, but where index astartes didn't leave Gulliman as unaware fool ( cleansing of agrippa ) and the link to the AL article hinted on the Ultramarines beeing waylaid too, the HH is the most recent telling of the story and the only one actually available. This imminent arrival your referring to here, is it from Visions of heresy? Because the HH series isn't at the Siege yet.

consider this:

- horus was aware of the reliability of his 'minions'.
- the AL and the NL, got to distract the loyalists. The AL may had agreed to, the NL seem to be off on their own already.
- the WB just had to go for the UM. But not all of them, and the real goal is IMO to start these warp storms to seperate the loyalists and the attack on the UM is their deluded idea of having revenge.
- the NL didn't keep the DA busy enough, or precisely failed to imagine the DA could catch them.
- the AL tried to keep the White Scars away, but failed, tried to keep the Wolves away, but nearly failed too. Or maybe its one of the twins doing...
- So who was Horus asset to keep the UM off?
- the AL, again? The NL, who showed less interest in the whole assault on Terra?
- the WB, who couldn't leave the rest alone, maybe one could change its mind if not motivated to go there?
- the WE, IW, EC, DG, SoH, the Legions he planned to use to assail the Palace?
- the depleted TS, a 1k force?
Seriously, Horus had nothing left to oppose Gulliman if he wouldn't use his main force for this. But then, losses and the delay may be enough to ruin the attack on Terra. Ultramar is far in the east, to get there and beat it, to return to Terra and beat it too...

Why should Horus feel the need to keep the UM off? Heck the forces he uses for the siege is so huge that not even the 13th legion can make him sweat. I will even be so bold to claim that leaving the way “relatively” open for UM was part of Horus plan B named: “lure the ‘boys in blue’ to our position and crush them under our iron heels.”

Manchu wrote:In either situation, Magnus would fight.

Given that you seem to be able to successfully construct posts that are at least grammatically correct, I'll assume that you have the ability to comprehend written English. Given this assumption and the content of the statement I have quoted above I shall give you the benefit of the doubt and therefore conclude that you have in fact not read A Thousand Sons. I highly recommend you do so before making any further comments regarding the sacking of Prospero. If you had read A Thousands Sons you would have noticed that it is explicitly stated that Magnus does NOT choose to fight. In fact he takes great pains to ensure that the Space Wolves achieve complete surprise in their attack, even going so far as to murder his own 5th Fellowship captain in cold blood to deprive his legion of advance warning of the impending invasion. He remains in his sanctum for the entire battle, only venturing out to confront Russ at the very end of the battle after his legion has been decimated (literally). Then he kills a mere handful of Space Wolves before losing to Russ and whisking the remainder of his legion away to the Planet of the Sorcerers.

Can someone please tell me how many thousand sons are left (without fanboy crap)?...Fact - only 1000 of them escaped Prospero(and some of them had a flash change upon arrival on pots:-) and most of them were decimated at the battle of the Fang...
According to lexicanum they are mere warbands now...and please add Ahriman and his Co...
So how many sorceres and how many rubric marines (which I dont count because they don't have any will)?

P.S. Don't tell me 1000

Far less than one thousand, even with the Rubricae. Does not include the Fourth Fellowship or its fleet.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Manchu wrote:In either situation, Magnus would fight.

Given that you seem to be able to successfully construct posts that are at least grammatically correct, I'll assume that you have the ability to comprehend written English. Given this assumption and the content of the statement I have quoted above I shall give you the benefit of the doubt and therefore conclude that you have in fact not read A Thousand Sons. I highly recommend you do so before making any further comments regarding the sacking of Prospero. If you had read A Thousands Sons you would have noticed that it is explicitly stated that Magnus does NOT choose to fight. In fact he takes great pains to ensure that the Space Wolves achieve complete surprise in their attack, even going so far as to murder his own 5th Fellowship captain in cold blood to deprive his legion of advance warning of the impending invasion. He remains in his sanctum for the entire battle, only venturing out to confront Russ at the very end of the battle after his legion has been decimated (literally). Then he kills a mere handful of Space Wolves before losing to Russ and whisking the remainder of his legion away to the Planet of the Sorcerers.

Look man,you have to be little more pragmatic- Magnus DID fight (he didn't want to at first,but he DID)-his legion DID fight(not listening Magnus),he CHOSE the worst solution...Why?
Because he was the first choice for the chaos,not Horus(you have read that probably, you know -his talk with certain chaos entity-god)...





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:Far less than one thousand, even with the Rubricae. Does not include the Fourth Fellowship or its fleet.

So how many with 4th?I mean 1000 -(few) - (bulk) - (rubric (there is no geneseed in coffe machine)) =?
And turn off ,how many you wished there was...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Far less than one thousand, even with the Rubricae. Does not include the Fourth Fellowship or its fleet.

So how many with 4th?I mean 1000 -(few) - (bulk) - (rubric (there is no geneseed in coffe machine)) =?
And turn off ,how many you wished there was...

Considering that a Fellowship is the equivalent of a Chapter, I'd say the Fourth had a thousand Astartes with it. But they were scattered soon afterwards - Captain Kalliston mentioned that they were attacked by an unidentified enemy, and he had his fleet disperse. Only the command element came back to Prospero on the Geometric, though Sergeant Arvida vowed to unite what was left of the Fourth and lead them against the true cause of their legion's destruction.

So 9000 (full legion strength of the Thousand Sons) - 1000 (Fourth Fellowship) - 600 (Rubricae as of Battle of the Fang) - 100 (around that number of Sorcerers as of the Battle of the Fang) - 30 (Ahriman, Hathor Maat, Amon - the known members of Ahriman's Cabal, assuming they were banished with full squads) = 7270 Astartes left unaccounted for, assumed KIA during the Horus Heresy.

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Far less than one thousand, even with the Rubricae. Does not include the Fourth Fellowship or its fleet.

So how many with 4th?I mean 1000 -(few) - (bulk) - (rubric (there is no geneseed in coffe machine)) =?
And turn off ,how many you wished there was...

Considering that a Fellowship is the equivalent of a Chapter, I'd say the Fourth had a thousand Astartes with it. But they were scattered soon afterwards - Captain Kalliston mentioned that they were attacked by an unidentified enemy, and he had his fleet disperse. Only the command element came back to Prospero on the Geometric, though Sergeant Arvida vowed to unite what was left of the Fourth and lead them against the true cause of their legion's destruction.

So 9000 (full legion strength of the Thousand Sons) - 1000 (Fourth Fellowship) - 600 (Rubricae as of Battle of the Fang) - 100 (around that number of Sorcerers as of the Battle of the Fang) - 30 (Ahriman, Hathor Maat, Amon - the known members of Ahriman's Cabal, assuming they were banished with full squads) = 7270 Astartes left unaccounted for, assumed KIA during the Horus Heresy.

Funny :-) Please count (1000 survivors) - (xxx casualties)...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Far less than one thousand, even with the Rubricae. Does not include the Fourth Fellowship or its fleet.

So how many with 4th?I mean 1000 -(few) - (bulk) - (rubric (there is no geneseed in coffe machine)) =?
And turn off ,how many you wished there was...

Considering that a Fellowship is the equivalent of a Chapter, I'd say the Fourth had a thousand Astartes with it. But they were scattered soon afterwards - Captain Kalliston mentioned that they were attacked by an unidentified enemy, and he had his fleet disperse. Only the command element came back to Prospero on the Geometric, though Sergeant Arvida vowed to unite what was left of the Fourth and lead them against the true cause of their legion's destruction.

So 9000 (full legion strength of the Thousand Sons) - 1000 (Fourth Fellowship) - 600 (Rubricae as of Battle of the Fang) - 100 (around that number of Sorcerers as of the Battle of the Fang) - 30 (Ahriman, Hathor Maat, Amon - the known members of Ahriman's Cabal, assuming they were banished with full squads) = 7270 Astartes left unaccounted for, assumed KIA during the Horus Heresy.

Funny :-) Please count (1000 survivors) - (xxx casualties)...

Considering the huge gap between the Burning of Prospero and the Battle of the Fang, I don't think we can count how many survivors there are.

hm 1000....if they weren't recruiting...

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote: It then goes on to say that the Emperor would understand them.

No, he thinks the Emperor would understand.
Like me thinking Manchu would get off of that weird "all hail my spiritual liege" course . It may or may not happen.

Manchu wrote:Guilliman does indeed go to Terra, with a force that is capable -- unlike the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Custodes together -- of defeating Horus. His imminent arrival is what causes Horus to force the siege to a head by lowering the shields of his battle barge.

Sure he goes to Terra, someday. Just not in time.

The assault on Earth by Bill King: A loyalist fleet under Leman Russ and Lion'el Johnson bearing a fresh army of Space Wolves and Dark Angels was only hours away

No mention of the Ultras in the original tale.

WD 233 Has the Dark Angels and Space Wolves make Planet fall on Terra at the end of the Siege but no mention of the Ultramarines.

An excuse could be

IA: Ultramarines: Their very successes had carried them far from Horus' armies in the north-east and Guilliman did not receive word of the betrayal until the battle for Terra was under way. Gathering his Legion, Guilliman led his forces towards Terra, en route destroying a rebel fleet on its way to reinforce Horus.

DatrhMarko wrote:hm 1000....if they weren't recruiting...

I'm pretty sure they can't recruit - there's nothing in their armor but dust, and I doubt anyone collects the gene-seed of fallen Sorcerers.

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:hm 1000....if they weren't recruiting...

I'm pretty sure they can't recruit - there's nothing in their armor but dust, and I doubt anyone collects the gene-seed of fallen Sorcerers.

and 4th felowship was just a survivors from 4th felowship( 30-45:-)
and my point is that there are like 300(max) of them ,of course not counting rubric marines...
Buuuuut 10x more potent...

As far as I know the Sons can't recruit, but they can replenish. I think it is mentioned in a Space Wolves novel that the Sorcerers are able to rehost suites of armour with those Rubicae that have been defeated in battle.

Don't hold me on that though.