Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Brother Thomas wrote:GW Displayed the Emperor wrong IMO. Hes just as bad as chaos

err no. They caused the destruction of much of the gaxaly. The Gaxaly would be a hell of alot better with out chaos.
If there were no chaos gods, the imperium would be still in a golden age and the imperium would be defending against the tyranids and slaughtering them.

Yeah, the Emperor is awesome if you're a human with no problems with blind obedience.

Yeah I guess, But It does seem like he tried to make himself into a god.

Yeah, I agree.

I think that's what's fascinating about the Emperor and about 40k more generally. On the one hand, you think: you know, he was right and we shouldn't question him. But on the other hand you think: he's just a tyrant and he has no right except the power he wields to do this.

As for me, I am pretty sympathetic with both the loyalists and the traitors for this reason -- especially Magnus. But even I can recognize that Magnus betrayed the Emperor out of pride rather than out of love.

Not really. One offers a life of slavery where you are ground up by the Imperial machine, and being slightly useful before you die is about the best you can hope for.

The other is horrifying in appearance, and may well only offer you a gruesome death, but there is a chance, however slight, at a true apotheosis.

I know which I would pick as a "common" Imperial citizen (things obviously change if you're among the privileged elite that can live for centuries indulging in every whim).

Life as Imperial citizen is not necessarily all that bad. Yes, there's the crushing weight of authoritarianism. But people in the fluff often have wives and children they can take solace in. The Chaos Gods would have you murder your wife and rape your kids. Not my cup of tea.

No they wouldn't. They would want you to indulge in your darkest impulses, your id, whatever you want to call it. If for you that's murdering your wife and raping your kids, is that really the fault of Chaos?

It also depends on the deity. Tzeench, for example, wouldn't have anything to gain from you doing that. He would want you to get involved in a populist movement and become a demagogue. Ya know, like the tea party and Sarah Palin.

Omegus wrote:They would want you to indulge in your darkest impulses

Nah, I don't think it works that way. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. And Slaanesh, well, different fluid but we have no reason to believe the logic is necessarily different.

Well, then, you just proved my point for me. Khorne would want you to just kill stuff, he wouldn't single out your wife and kids (although eventually they would get annoying and you'd want to add them to the tally). Slaanesh is all about your darkest impulses.

Omegus wrote: Slaanesh is all about your darkest impulses.

I don't know. I can imagine a lot - I doubt anyone but Tzeentch could make it happen - certainly not that 'woman'.

Well, I know this can be a hot button topic on these forums considering all the angst out there...

Magnus was CLEARLY given a choice and he chose poorly. The Emperors first position was to sanction the psykers including Magnus when the Emperor realized the threat Magnus presented. He CLEARLY didn't want to lose his son and expressed that point of view with sadness as Magnus bore his way through the gate at the Golden Throne. He gave Lorgar a chance as well meeting with him face to face as his Legion was clearly violating the Emperors edict about godhood and such, but he refused to accept the admonishment. We realize now what such things mean in hindsight and how dangerous those positions were. Horus too given another chance to come back to the fold at the expense of the Emperors mortal existence! LOL! What more could he have done for him!?

It was more than love for their father that drove these men to do the things they did in the name of the Emperor... it was hubris pure and simple and they fell to Chaos because of it. They believed their own hype, but you can't label yourself a god. You must label your father one and become one by default.

From a HUMAN perspective all things considered, the nature of the uber-violent 40k universe and all that, the Emperor created his sons with ONE goal in mind... to save HUMAN KIND. What more noble purpose could a human have!? The Primarchs have very little purpose beyond that. Now sure, it's a cold and calculated plan. Some of the Primarchs understood the nature of their existence and some didn't want to. This hubris cost the Emperor any chance at saving the human race.

I'll say it again, despite the fact the game is stagnant, humanity is now, for all intents and purposes, a doomed race because of the traitor Primarchs. Many fans forget this. (well, until GW or the BL let off a fluff bomb)

I understand all too well the allure of the traitor Primarchs. We want to sympathize with them, some of us feel them wronged in some way. Some gravitate toward them because we simply can't stand the smug look on the loyalist Primarchs faces especially if they're clad in Ultramarine colored armor. The truth is, however, that while ALL the Primarchs were flawed (as all heroic characters are) it is the traitors who have caused the the Imperium of man to fall to pieces.

Why some fans insist on piling on the Emperor is beyond me at this juncture in the fluff. Some fans argue that the Emperor is evil because thousands of souls are sacrificed to the Astronomicon daily. Many use this example to label him an evil Megalomaniac. But it isn't the Emperor who does this, it's the Lords of Terra who allow this. To suppliment the loss of the Emperors will with the thousands, millions of psychic beings to power the Astronomicon so that mankind can find its way through the warp. The Emperor was working toward trying to use the webway or something similar to avoid this fate until Magnus destroyed the Emperors work.

This act, removing himself from the primarchs and setting his mind toward the creation of this webway to save mankind from the predations of the warp, which caused resentment amongst his sons. He couldn't tell them what he was doing because, I believe, he already knew many of his sons had been compromised. He didn't dare let the forces of Chaos know what he was doing until he could remove mankind from their clutches.

The Emperor at this point in the fluff and in my mind is not the villain here when you look at the big picture.

Given his policies and what insights we're given into his character in short stories and novels (Last Church, Outcast Dead, etc.), he is very hard to sympathize with. He handled the Primarchs extremely poorly. You would think for someone who has lived among humanity for thousands of years, he would have better people skills. All of the Primarchs were products of their environment, pure and simple. They were blank slates, and adapted to the situation they were thrust into.

Ferrus Manus once noted that the Emperor had his favourites (Horus, Sanguinius etc.) and the rest were simply to row in behind them, not a position I'd be happy with were I a demi-god....or even a basic human

If I consider the word Primarch I think of Prime & Archetypes. He used a combo of high tech & psionics to create ......... wait for it ........ Gods. From this God stock pile of genetics he created the Adeptus Astartes. From the the moment the Primarchs got scattered across the Milky Way the Emporer lost control much like the way fathers & mothers eventually lose control over thier kids. Now 10000 years later the Space Marines are akin to angels & demigods. The fact that the Emporer made mistakes is in accordance with most mythology. Take Odin and Loki for example or the the greek gods.

I just find it entertaining how great and powerful the emperor was, how he had so many plans to save humanity. And he failed, and now everyone is going to die to xenos and daemons in the near future. I'm gonna give GW one more codex to advance the story line before i move on to something more satisfying (for me). I guess 40k just isnt for me

Brother Thomas wrote:I'm gonna give GW one more codex to advance the story line before i move on to something more satisfying (for me).

Then I guess you'll be moving on then.

Why do you need it to advance anyway? There are 10, 000 years of potential story to explore.

Yeah, the Emperor is awesome if you're a human with no problems with blind obedience.

The Emperor tried to destroy the Chaos Gods. That was his agenda. The Emperor was pure and good. What the Imperium represents now is completely different and that's a result of the Emperor's ascension to the Golden Throne.

The Chaos Gods cannot thrive and maybe not even survive if there is noone in the galaxy to worship or even remember them. Their power waxes and wanes. The Emperor's goal was not only reuniting the lost colonies of humanity, but to build a secular, atheist human race that doesn't believe or worship any gods. He knew there were many lost planets with humans under the influence of Chaos and they had to be put to the torch so that the new age could begin. This is why the Emperor always forbade his own followers from worshipping the Emperor as a god. The Cult of the Emperor was completely underground and illegal at this time, and the Emperor took harsh action against the religious Word Bearers who worshipped him.

The problem with this in the 40K universe was that the gods (this term is vague but it's used to describe monstrously large masses of conciousness in the other dimension called the warp such as the Chaos gods) naturally wanted to stop the Emperor from achieving his goal so they plotted against him at every turn. The Chaos Gods were afraid of the Emperor. Another problematic issue was that the Emperor decided to not explain the real truth even to his own sons, the Primarches, and after some unfortunate series of events this came to bite him. The Legions didn't know Daemons even existed and what kind of danger they were, because the Emperor hadn't told them, and when they came in contact with these perils the Legions and the Primarches fell to the corruptions. They were unable to resist since they didn't know what to look out for. It's a deliberate risk naturally, because if he had instead told too many people that would've been self-defeating. The idea was to make people forget the gods exist at all.

The Emperor took a gamble. He was the most powerful psyker in the universe, but still just a man (of sorts), and he went on a mission to save humanity by destroying or diminishing to insignificance the gods that preyed on it. Because of the machinations of Tzeentch and a thousand other consequences his plans didn't work out and everything went from bad to worse. Now instead of the Imperium being a secular society that believes in the material universe and the rule of law it's a dominion ruled by religious madmen. The Emperor is worshipped as a god everywhere when in fact the Emperor himself would never have allowed it. Likewise, cults worshiping the dark powers are found everywhere and the Chaos Gods are thriving.

Now all that remains is for the last defenders of the humanity to fall and the galaxy becomes a feeding ground for the creatures of the warp. It's just a matter of time. There are many theories and prophecies what will happen afterwards, but it seems like the destruction will burn bright for a while and then all life as we know it in the 41st millennium will go out for a few million years. I doubt this is what the traitor legions were promised since most of them will end up with their souls devoured just like everyone else.

Now, if you ask me what my problem with the 'present day' 40K fluff is, it's the following: There are many factions who hatefully want to destroy everything foreign to them. The Chaos Legions want to destroy and enslave the entire human race in addition to every xenos race, but that's not all. The Necrons (well, most of them) want to destroy everything too. There are others, like Orks, who want to destroy everything and if they're ever done then they destroy themselves. Why would Imotekh the Stormlord want to destroy all organic life from the universe? What would the Necrons do afterwards? They don't feel love or attachment, they can't have kids, they don't go to the beach during holidays... you get the picture. Basically there's too much "I will try to kill everyone and everything and then I'll just kill myself because I have no further plans for life" going on. I would like the background stories to be a little less childishly grandiose. The Necrons for example should only try to re-establish a fraction of their old Empire, protect its borders so they won't come to harm, and then focus on whatever they were doing before the War in Heaven, for example exploring the secrets of creation and the universe, and making more scientific advancements so that their minds stop degenerating. They should also try to get back to organic bodies, or ascend to pure energy, or see if they can reproduce somehow. If I was an immortal being that defeated the star gods themselves and had survived for millions of years, the last thing I would be interested in is going out to exterminate some maggots all over the Milky Way for the next couple thousand years. Many factions simply have no endgame, no motivations for existence, other than "Me angry. Me kill!". It's sad that many GW writers try to convince us that some of the greatest minds in the entire universe, some of which have existed for aeons, both human and alien, have nothing better to occupy their time except the killing of as many other creatures as possible.

Finally, I think it's a major flaw that everything happens in the Milky Way. Only the Tyranids came from somewhere else. The estimation in the real world is that there are billions of galaxies in the universe, and some of them are reasonably close to the Milky Way, in space terms. If the Milky Way is such a bad place filled with nothing but war and death and destruction, why don't some of the advanced races just bolt? I refuse to believe the Necrons' quantum phase technology allows them to travel thousands of light years within the Milky Way at phenomenal speeds but doesn't allow them to travel to other galaxies. The Canis Major Dwarf galaxy is only 25000 light years from Terra.

Manchu wrote:Yeah, the Emperor is awesome if you're a human with no problems with blind obedience.

You could have a problem with it if you wanted. It'd make no difference. Simply being in the Emperor's presence once induces a lifelong worship-boner in normal humans that makes them want to follow his commands. He had absolutely no natural charisma or people-skills, just a psychic presence so overpowering that he didn't need any. Which IMO is why so many Primarchs to whatever extent fell, he couldn't handle dealing with men who could stand on nearly even ground with him.

Also, I am well-aware that the actions of the traitor Primarchs helped cause the beginning of the downfall of humanity. In terms of the 40k universe, looking at it from the outside, I find that fact very hard to care about.

Tadashi wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They weren't all psykers, otherwise there'd be no Rubric Marines at all.

"but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever. "

Nope they all had pyschic powers.

No, they didn't. The Rubric of Ahriman was made clear that those with little or no psychic ability, were the ones reduced to dust. Check Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 4th Edition, pp. 50-51.

Manchu wrote:The Thousand Sons weren't all extremely powerful psykers but they were all psykers.

The Emperor did not make a mistake regarding them. Magnus was a traitor. He masked his pride behind self-delusions of "good intentions." If he was truly loyal, he would have obeyed the Emperor. But because he cared more for his own ego than for his father, he slowly destroyed whatever trust the Emperor had formerly placed in him.

Magnus insisted that he knew better than the Emperor what was best for the Imperium. This is the very definition of treachery. The title "Master of Mankind" brooks no questioning except by traitors.

Your forgetting that Magnus and the Sons weren't meant to be destroyed. Magnus' punishment was supposed to be to keep the Golden Throne under control while the Emperor oversaw the Terran defense and repaired the damage to the Webway. And the Thousand Sons would have gotten a pardon anyway - by the time of the Siege of Terra, the Edicts had been amended, considering that the Emperor personally directed Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians during the penultimate assault on the Imperial Palace. Check Index Astartes III, pp. 40-47.

Its states in either fulgrims book or lorgars that horus convinced the wolf of russ to destroy the sons instead of bringing magnus back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:Ferrus Manus once noted that the Emperor had his favourites (Horus, Sanguinius etc.) and the rest were simply to row in behind them, not a position I'd be happy with were I a demi-god....or even a basic human

Fulgrim was on that list his legion was able to have the aquila on their armour, which is the Emprahs personal symbol. So was magnus, the emprah loved horus since he was the 1st son and sanguinius was loved by almost everyone besides angron the red angel as he was called in the fluff

Therion wrote:The Emperor tried to destroy the Chaos Gods. That was his agenda. The Emperor was pure and good. [...] The Chaos Gods cannot thrive and maybe not even survive if there is noone in the galaxy to worship or even remember them. Their power waxes and wanes. The Emperor's goal was not only reuniting the lost colonies of humanity, but to build a secular, atheist human race that doesn't believe or worship any gods.

First, "pure and good" have no place in this setting. Second, Chaos does not need to be worshiped in order to exist and it is extremely debatable that the Chaos gods depend on material beings for their existence in any sense (more likely, the emotions of material beings merely draw their attention -- you might say it "riles them up"). Finally, the idea of expunging all religion from the galaxy is absurd -- and it's especially absurd in the way the Emperor was (allegedly) going about it, with all of this basically religious iconography and religiously tinted ideology. The building of some atheistic empire simply doesn't make sense nor would its achievement actually hinder the Chaos Gods. What makes more sense is that the Great Crusade was an attempt to wipe out all competing religions (including Lorgar's) in favor of a universal one, constructed by the Emperor himself.

The argument about good and evil and the connection between humanity and the Chaos gods is irrelevant imho.

The Emperor's goal was saving the human race from the predations of the Chaos gods and to a lesser extent xenos species.

In addition, it isn't all to clear to me to what extent the latters elimination were a core policy to the Emperors plan. What mankind did in his name may be a different, however.

The idea of 40k is that the Universe and all the things in it are to some degree at odds with Humanity.

Sympathizing with the plight of some of the other major factions in the face of Human arrogance isn't as clear cut either.

It isn't a case of "Can't we all just get along", but rather who deserves to be in charge. No other major faction wants to live in peace with the IoM and it is only the Tau, who would consider living with mankind on something like equal terms.

When faced with this, it is no wonder why the IoM is as xenophobic as they are.

Apparently GW thinks so as well considering that the Tau are "buddies" with the Astartes now... muahahahaha... *sigh*, sorry.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:Given his policies and what insights we're given into his character in short stories and novels (Last Church, Outcast Dead, etc.), he is very hard to sympathize with. He handled the Primarchs extremely poorly. You would think for someone who has lived among humanity for thousands of years, he would have better people skills. All of the Primarchs were products of their environment, pure and simple. They were blank slates, and adapted to the situation they were thrust into.

Well, it isn't as pure and simple as that.

The Primarchs are "designed" beings. They are not simply clones of the Emperors genetics, but rather super-complex genetic designs. While they had free will, it is made relatively clear that the Primarchs represent aspects of the Emperors character meshed with, in some cases, animal characteristics. One only needs to look at the Space Wolves and the experiments of Corax to see what I mean. When one considers these templates it is clear that they were not blank slates at all. At least not in the way we, as normals, might think of it.

All of this genetic information was honed to a degree within the genetic design to bring forth a supreme being capable of conquering the galaxy. It is intimated as well that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos gods for the knowledge to do this. While it would be unwise to trust a demon to tell the truth about this, it must be remembered that twisting the truth to reach desired ends is the provenance of demonkind. So there might be a nugget in there that rings true.

How much free will, then, is a debatable topic.

Uhlan wrote:In addition, it isn't all to clear to me to what extent the latters elimination were a core policy to the Emperors plan. What mankind did in his name may be a different, however.

Considering how rampantly xenophobic the Imperium acted even when the Emperor was walking around, I doubt he was much better.

Manchu wrote:First, "pure and good" have no place in this setting. Second, Chaos does not need to be worshiped in order to exist and it is extremely debatable that the Chaos gods depend on material beings for their existence in any sense (more likely, the emotions of material beings merely draw their attention -- you might say it "riles them up"). Finally, the idea of expunging all religion from the galaxy is absurd -- and it's especially absurd in the way the Emperor was (allegedly) going about it, with all of this basically religious iconography and religiously tinted ideology. The building of some atheistic empire simply doesn't make sense nor would its achievement actually hinder the Chaos Gods. What makes more sense is that the Great Crusade was an attempt to wipe out all competing religions (including Lorgar's) in favor of a universal one, constructed by the Emperor himself.

The setting that you're talking about is the present day situation. Basically only very narrow minded and short sighted humanists could see the Emperor's vision for the ultimate goal of humanity as anything but pure and good. The alternative is its utter enslavement and destruction. Billions upon billions of lives hung in the balance and whether they liked it or not the Emperor was fighting for all of them. If you consider the Emperor's crusade to unite the human race and drive back Chaos to just be a shade of grey you're simply mistaken and not paying attention to what's at stake.

Expunging religion from the galaxy wasn't absurd at all. I wouldn't want to get into a real world debate here but religion is absurd and illogical in itself and basically grounded on the beliefs of the ignorant and the uneducated. You bring enough knowledge, education and welfare into a culture and their medieval beliefs quickly become the children's stories that they are. Even in the 40K pre-heresy setting most humans considered words like 'god' and 'daemons' nothing but fiction untill they were proven wrong, because in the fictional universe of 40K there are creatures in the other dimension which lesser beings like humans call gods. Secondly, I'd like to refer to a short story called 'Hive Fleet Horror' in one of the older Black Library collections which very specifically talks about the Chaos Gods. It mentions that there might be an infinite amount of Hive Fleets in the universe spread in billions of galaxies and if they destroyed all sentient beings with psychic ties to the warp even the Chaos Gods would die or wither into unconsciousness. I agree with the writer's interpretation.

You're allowed to your opinions but as far as the Emperor constructing some church for himself is concerned you're simply wrong. The background is very clear on this. The Emperor was against religion of all kinds including the worship of himself as anything else than the ruler of the Imperium of Man. After the battle with Horus his servants essentially went against their master's word and started openly worshiping him as a god. I explained this tragedy in my previous post.

Brother Thomas wrote:I just find it entertaining how great and powerful the emperor was, how he had so many plans to save humanity. And he failed, and now everyone is going to die to xenos and daemons in the near future. I'm gonna give GW one more codex to advance the story line before i move on to something more satisfying (for me). I guess 40k just isnt for me

You'll be moving on. The main storyline/plot/whatever you want to call it has not significantly moved forward, backwards or sidewards in 25 years. Sure, more Xenos have entered the game as new armies, some armies have vanished, whatever, but that has not significantly changed anything about the narrative at all.

Therion wrote:If you consider the Emperor's crusade to unite the human race and drive back Chaos to just be a shade of grey you're simply mistaken and not paying attention to what's at stake.

Actually, if you consider the 40k universe in anything but very dark shades of grey, then you're simply mistaken and are not paying attention.

I wouldn't want to get into a real world debate here but religion is absurd and illogical in itself and basically grounded on the beliefs of the ignorant and the uneducated.

I don't want to get into a debate, but that's an incredibly insulting and frankly idiotic observation. Back on-topic, if you want to get rid of religion, why create whole systems that are based on mythic/religious significance. The symbols and traditions of the SM who actually fought in the Crusade speak to something besides a purely rational approach. The idea that one guy should rule the whole of the galaxy just because he's the most powerful of his race is pretty irrational, too. The idea that one race should be ascendant over all others doesn't spring from any rational, atheistic calculation, either. All of this is so irrational in fact that you would need some kind of religion to hold it all together. But in order for it to be "all together" -- that is, unified -- everyone needs the same religion. And in fact that religion itself needs to be primarily about coercive control from the very top of society to the very bottom instead of about prayers and spirits, etc. Maybe the word "religion" is the hang up, since you are clearly thinking of things like this rather than this. For the Emperor's purpose, the difference between "God" and "Führer" is negligible.

Or to put it in your own words:

The Emperor was against religion of all kinds including the worship of himself as anything else than the ruler of the Imperium of Man.

So worshiping him as the ruler of the Imperium would be okay. Yeah, we can agree if you actually meant what you said.

Manchu wrote:Actually, if you consider the 40k universe in anything but very dark shades of grey, then you're simply mistaken and are not paying attention.

I've been paying close, close attention to the 40K universe for 21 years, thank you very much. You however seem to have read the back cover of a magazine. If I may be so bold, you haven't really understood the 40K universe, despite dabbling in it. Not everything is so mysterious as you claim it to be. Try to look at the big picture for once.

but that's an incredibly insulting and frankly idiotic observation.

You forgot to add 'in my opinion', because it really is nothing but.

Back on-topic, if you want to get rid of religion, why create whole systems that are based on mythic/religious significance. The symbols and traditions of the SM who actually fought in the Crusade speak to something besides a purely rational approach.

Don't make stuff up. Use examples. Which pre-heresy chapters used religious symbols and traditions? Much more specifically, which of those traditions were approved by the Emperor? Afterall we're talking about the Emperor and his vision here. I probably don't need to remind you that quite a few of his sons didn't agree with their father in all things?

The idea that one guy should rule the whole of the galaxy just because he's the most powerful of his race is pretty irrational, too.

How would you know that the Emperor's plan was to rule the galaxy for all time? He was a unifier and in times like those a strong leader with the foresight and ability as the Emperor was the perfect individual to see it all done. Based on what we're told the Emperor might have existed for all time, yet he started leading the human race only very late. We can speculate that after his mission would've completed he would've given rule to a senate of High Lords etc. The war was never meant to last forever. Even Primarches like Roboute Guilliman were already planning lives in government and administration for both himself and his Space Marines. Other more barbarian Primarches understood that they were forging a golden era of peace for humankind which would have no further need for such single minded killers.

The idea that one race should be ascendant over all others doesn't spring from any rational, atheistic calculation, either. All of this is so irrational in fact that you would need some kind of religion to hold it all together.

Now I simply lost you. What does humanity's dominion of a single galaxy have to do with irrational beliefs such as religion? There were elder species in the Milky Way and they had all failed in the fight against Chaos or fallen to their inner warlike tendencies and destroyed eachother. It was humanity's time to give it a shot.

But in order for it to be "all together" -- that is, unified -- everyone needs the same religion

If by religion you mean for example believing in the material universe, the rule of law and morality then yes a society needs everyone to believe that being organised at peace is worth it. Populations don't need to believe in voodoo and tree spirits to be able to function. The prayers you keep talking about sound like you're talking things such as the Adeptus Mechanicum. The Emperor went hard against them too and essentially told them that there is no Machine God. He needed the alliance between Terra and Mars during his crusade so he had to be a little sensitive though.

So worshiping him as the ruler of the Imperium would be okay. Yeah, we can agree if you actually meant what you said.

Worship is a word associated with religion, but I might as well used the words respect and obey. Most people respect their nation's leader and they are required by law to take certain orders from those elected into power. If your leader is in fact thousands of years old, the most powerful psychic to ever exist and the leader of a million human worlds, using the word worship instead of 'respect and obey' might be acceptable. Yet it has nothing to do with superstition and religion.

Therion wrote:Don't make stuff up. Use examples. Which pre-heresy chapters used religious symbols and traditions? Much more specifically, which of those traditions were approved by the Emperor?

SW. Please go read Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.

Now I simply lost you.

There is nothing rational about the Great Crusade. It's very name gives away the real character of the enterprise.

The Emperor went hard against them too and essentially told them that there is no Machine God.

Nope. Please read Mechanicus. "Somehow," some Martians got the idea that the Emperor was the Omnissiah ...

If your leader is in fact thousands of years old, the most powerful psychic to ever exist and the leader of a million human worlds, using the word worship instead of 'respect and obey' might be acceptable.

Yep, you are exactly right. You want to call it something besides religion, fine. But totalitizing all authority into a singular being is about as rational as carrying around a four-leaf clover or dancing around a fire for rain.

Please go read Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.

I've read those books. Whatever you wanted to say simply isn't there. The Thousand Sons were strictly atheist and were open mindedly exploring the secrets of the universe. They never even considered the creatures of the warp daemons, a word which has a religious tone, but simply predators that are dangerous to intruders in their own habitat. The Space Wolves on the other hand were naturalist and feral tribesmen with little knack for philosophy, and believed mostly in their own quest's righteousness. They weren't asked to do anything else but fight so that's what they did. I don't want to start discussing Magnus' mistake in underestimating his father's vision and knowledge while also underestimating the dangers preying on him in the warp.

There is nothing rational about the Great Crusade. It's very name gives away the real character of the enterprise.

Nothing rational? What does a name have to do with rationality? You're making more stuff up. Explain the irrationality of unifying your own species and vanquishing the enemies that plan to destroy you?

Nope. Please read Mechanicus. Somehow, some Martians got the idea that the Emperor was the Omnissiah

I've read it. Like I said, he was sensitive. You have a planet of inbred religious nutcases that have believed in something in isolation for thousands of years, and you need them to work for you. Mars was crucial for the mission. A being such as impressive as the Emperor has an effect like that on humans. His power, vision and intelligence was simply so incredible that emperors and warlords alike fell to their knees in adolation. Yet whenever someone claimed him a god, he told them he isn't one. Tragically right after he was gone those people started talking about him being a god again.

But totalitizing all authority into a singular being is about as rational as carrying around a four-leaf clover or dancing around a fire for rain.

This is just false. First of all the Emperor wasn't making decisions on his own. He had plenty of advisors and councilmen and trusted friends such as the Sigillite. He had supreme authority, but many a modern society has been ruled succesfully for a time like this. Most western countries have laws that have provisions for crisis situations so that power can be centralised and decisions made more quickly. When the human race decided it was going to conquer back a million worlds and save the people scattered all around the galaxy, I don't think a democratic commission that takes a decade for every decision would've quite cut it.

Billions wait upon every nuance of his words. His mind stretches across the material galaxy and beyond. He claims absolute authority over every being that exists, whether to rule them or to destroy them.

A god is a thing that people believe in despite a lack of evidence. Inasmuch as every facet of the day-to-day lives of all people serves as evidence of his existence, the Emperor is therefore not a god. And yet in terms of his power, what other word do we have to describe him?

The thing about the Emperor is that there are only two ways to talk about him: either he is a god in the only real sense of thatword and his claims are legitimate or he is not and his claims are absurd. If you go with the former, then it is impossible to see his rule over the galaxy as anything but what the Ecclesiarchy would eventually come to claim. And if you go with the latter, then it does not even matter because he is no more significant than any other extremely powerful warlord -- like Horus, for example ... which is the cause of the Horus Heresy. One warlord simply decided to fight another one.

Meanwhile, his servants also use supernatural powers. Some of them, like the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves understand this in the language of wizardry or shamanism. Hardly a "scientific" outlook.

In 40k, "atheism" is not possible because the gods really do exist. Belief in anything else is superstition in the real sense of that word -- a belief contrary to fact. This is the issue that the Emperor's armies bring to every world: accept the Emperor willingly or we will stamp out your "non-compliant" beliefs with violence like unto the wrath of a god.

Therion wrote:You forgot to add 'in my opinion', because it really is nothing but.

How delightfully ironic.