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2012/07/06 08:05:05
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Manchu wrote:
In 40k, "atheism" is not possible because the gods really do exist. Belief in anything else is superstition in the real sense of that word -- a belief contrary to fact. This is the issue that the Emperor's armies bring to every world: accept the Emperor willingly or we will stamp out your "non-compliant" beliefs with violence like unto the wrath of a god.
They're not gods or daemons. Not really. Not in the classical sense. They're xenos - immaterial ones to be sure, coming from a parallel universe, created and sustained by the emotions, dreams, nightmares, desires, and beliefs of 'mortal' beings, but their neither divine nor demonic. They're just another form of life, albeit completely unlike anything in our universe. The Emperor is not a god, He's just a psyker - the mightiest to ever exist.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/06 09:26:57
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Jervis Johnson
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How delightfully ironic.
If it was somehow a mystery to you that I was making opinions then now that has been revealed to you. I didn't claim Manchu's to be idiotic though like he claimed mine.
In 40k, "atheism" is not possible because the gods really do exist.
I don't really know if that's even true. God implies supernatural and you see supernatural or spiritual in things I don't, even in in fiction. Warp travel, astropathic communication and other uses of various psychic abilities don't have anything to do with shamanism, spirituality or the belief in gods. The so called Chaos Gods are landmasses of conciousness in the warp, some of which have set and known birth dates, and some of which have died. They're sentiences, even creatures, not just in the form that they usually exist. They can be destroyed or diminished to insignificance by unconventional means. This is exactly why C'tan are also often referred as gods, and why you keep refering to Emperor as a god despite him just being the most gifted psyker ever to have lived. The lesser minds of inferior creatures label divinity to things they don't understand. The fact that you claim that his vision for uniting the species is irrational and his claims to the throne illegitimate simply because he isn't a god is preposterous to say the least. Those things aren't even related.
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2012/07/06 09:40:03
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2012/07/06 09:40:49
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Therion wrote:
I don't really know if that's even true. God implies supernatural and you see supernatural or spiritual in things I don't, even in in fiction. The so called Chaos Gods are landmasses of conciousness in the warp, some of which have set and known birth dates, and some of which have died. They're sentiences, even creatures, not just in the form that they usually exist. They can be destroyed or diminished to insignificance by unconventional means. This is exactly why C'tan are also often referred as gods, and why you keep refering to Emperor as a god despite him just being the most gifted psyker ever to have lived. The fact that you claim that his vision for uniting the species is impossible and his claims to the throne illegitimate simply because he isn't a god is ludicrous to say the least. Those things aren't even related.
Ultimately though, the Imperial Truth is correct. There are NO GODS. The so-called gods and daemons are just like what I said in my previous post - energy-based xenos from a parellel universe. And I have to agree, the Emperor claiming the Throne and not being a god has no connection. Do you need a claim of divinity to become an absolute ruler? Of course not. It's called Manifest Destiny - the 'crusade' of the Great Crusade could just mean the looser meaning, a campaign or drive for a specific cause, in this case unification and conquest. The Imperial Truth could have destroyed Chaos - the reaction of the Chaos Powers to it is the biggest evidence of all.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/06 09:41:25
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/06 09:53:22
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Jervis Johnson
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Ultimately though, the Imperial Truth is correct. There are NO GODS. The so-called gods and daemons are just like what I said in my previous post - energy-based xenos from a parellel universe. And I have to agree, the Emperor claiming the Throne and not being a god has no connection. Do you need a claim of divinity to become an absolute ruler? Of course not. It's called Manifest Destiny - the 'crusade' of the Great Crusade could just mean the looser meaning, a campaign or drive for a specific cause, in this case unification and conquest. The Imperial Truth could have destroyed Chaos - the reaction of the Chaos Powers to it is the biggest evidence of all.
I agree one hundred percent, like I've explained in my posts on the previous page. This is how I always understood it all and many of the GW writers seem to agree with this interpretation. What I really love about the background is the fact how it shows the quickness of men and xenos species alike in starting open worship of creatures more powerful than them as gods. It also shows the desire to find gods when none can be found just so that there would be something to worship and devote your lives to. In the infinite vastness of space many a lesser creature tries to cling on to hope of salvation by a supernatural and divine being if they just serve faithfully. Races and individuals who are bigger than that and can see the big picture and understand the science behind it know that there is only power and those able to wield it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/06 10:03:47
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2012/07/06 10:15:08
Subject: Re:The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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The Imperial Truth probably wouldn't have destroyed the Powers of Chaos; its a fact that while worship makes them stronger, they could still feed on the emotions of sentient beings; however, if people believe that gods and daemons don't exist (as happened under the Imperial Truth) in the long run this would have destroyed/weakened them, effectively emasculating Chaos and rendering it a paper tiger. The Warp is affected by people's thoughts and emotions - if people thought/believed gods and daemons didn't exist, then they would lose a huge part of their power. They'll still be there, but the Powers and daemons would be reduced to their original forms - mere vortexes of primal emotions/embodiments of dreams and nightmares in the Warp but with little or no direction.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/06 10:18:34
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/06 14:13:27
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Dakka Veteran
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One thing to note is that we're using the word 'god' in the context of the 'big three' Abrehamic religions, Judaism, Chrtianity, and Islam. In that sense there are no gods in 40k. If you consider gods as worshiped by the Greeks and Romans, then the word fits both the Ruinous Powers and the old C'Tan.
And on the subject of the Thousand Sons, disobedience is not the same as disloyalty. It doesn't mean that Magnus did the right thing, but it also doesn't make him a traitor.
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2012/07/06 14:16:58
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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[MOD]
Solahma
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That's a very good point, regarding pagan religions. Also, ancient peoples, like the Egyptians, certainly believed they had evidence for the existence of their gods.
But I disagree regarding the difference between disobedience and disloyalty in the case of Magnus. The Emperor spelled it out explicitly at Nikaea that disobedience in this case would be disloyalty.
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2012/07/06 15:45:04
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
Eye of Terror
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Manchu wrote:Therion wrote:The Emperor tried to destroy the Chaos Gods. That was his agenda. The Emperor was pure and good. [...] The Chaos Gods cannot thrive and maybe not even survive if there is noone in the galaxy to worship or even remember them. Their power waxes and wanes. The Emperor's goal was not only reuniting the lost colonies of humanity, but to build a secular, atheist human race that doesn't believe or worship any gods.
First, "pure and good" have no place in this setting. Second, Chaos does not need to be worshiped in order to exist and it is extremely debatable that the Chaos gods depend on material beings for their existence in any sense (more likely, the emotions of material beings merely draw their attention -- you might say it "riles them up"). Finally, the idea of expunging all religion from the galaxy is absurd -- and it's especially absurd in the way the Emperor was (allegedly) going about it, with all of this basically religious iconography and religiously tinted ideology. The building of some atheistic empire simply doesn't make sense nor would its achievement actually hinder the Chaos Gods. What makes more sense is that the Great Crusade was an attempt to wipe out all competing religions (including Lorgar's) in favor of a universal one, constructed by the Emperor himself.
The chaos gods were created by the corruption, emotions, hate and generally all bad things of humanity and some other sentient beings.
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2012/07/06 16:25:44
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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[MOD]
Solahma
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That is one theory. Codex: Chaos Daemons itself makes it clear that such a theory is based on a real space rather than a warp space perspective. There is no such thing as time in the Warp. There is therefore no time before which the Chaos Gods existed. It is therefore better to understand Chaos as something affected by rather than engendered by real space phenomena. Automatically Appended Next Post: Therion wrote:there is only power and those able to wield it.
This is effectively a description of the dogma of the Ecclesiarchy. You just need to change it a little: "There is only the Emperor, for he wields all power." The way you stated it is merely the dogma of the Horus Heresy.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/06 16:28:25
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2012/07/07 13:52:00
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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RogueSangre
The Cockatrice Malediction
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Manchu wrote:That is one theory. Codex: Chaos Daemons itself makes it clear that such a theory is based on a real space rather than a warp space perspective. There is no such thing as time in the Warp. There is therefore no time before which the Chaos Gods existed.
This would also imply that the Emperor will NOT be reborn as the "5th Chaos god" when his dies. Otherwise there would already be 5 gods in the timeless Realm of Chaos and the Emperor's daemons would have entries in the Chaos Daemons codex.
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2012/07/07 13:55:25
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:This would also imply that the Emperor will NOT be reborn as the "5th Chaos god" when his dies. Otherwise there would already be 5 gods in the timeless Realm of Chaos and the Emperor's daemons would have entries in the Chaos Daemons codex.
Unless that 5th god doesn't exist now, but thanks to the weirdness of the warp and how it deals with time, once it is born it will have always existed...
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2012/07/07 14:00:38
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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insaniak wrote:Abadabadoobaddon wrote:This would also imply that the Emperor will NOT be reborn as the "5th Chaos god" when his dies. Otherwise there would already be 5 gods in the timeless Realm of Chaos and the Emperor's daemons would have entries in the Chaos Daemons codex.
Unless that 5th god doesn't exist now, but thanks to the weirdness of the warp and how it deals with time, once it is born it will have always existed...
An interesting point. Wasn't that the case with Slaanesh? The Eldar Seers have always felt 'her' presence, just as how Humans have always known the Emperor's presence, but the former became 'real' at the moment of the Fall. Logically, it should also be the case that the moment the Emperor becomes a god - well, not really a god, since gods don't exist as per the Imperial Truth - will also be the moment He 'exists' in the Warp.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/07 17:53:07
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
Eye of Terror
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I feel as if magnus and is sons want to be gone from the warp and be loyal to the emperor again but can't. Magnus is powerful enough to fight the chaos corruption and reclaim his mind. But will it ever happen? Ask gw. Also, are there any sons left that aren't rubric marines with magnus ? Or did ahriman take all of them on his quest for the black library?
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2012/07/08 21:45:46
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Regular Dakkanaut
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if memeory serves ahriman didnt take all of the thousand sons just the ones in his coven. So magnus could likely win his mind back but in the end would he be fogiven or would the sons of russ track him down and kill him.
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Wherever and whenever they appear they leave only destruction in their wake; they are the Lords of Death, Bringers of War. The Dark Angels.
Oh, you think the darkness is your ally, but you merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t see the light until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but blinding!- Helen Keller |
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2012/07/18 09:31:21
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Regular Dakkanaut
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and its not that magnus lost his mind its more of the fact that he was broken by his own father and brother
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Wherever and whenever they appear they leave only destruction in their wake; they are the Lords of Death, Bringers of War. The Dark Angels.
Oh, you think the darkness is your ally, but you merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t see the light until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but blinding!- Helen Keller |
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2012/07/18 12:11:13
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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Gabrial Seth wrote:and its not that magnus lost his mind its more of the fact that he was broken by his own father and brother
So he decided to join Horus:-)Thats why it isn't a tragedy and why he is a TRAITOR with a bullseye on his forhed....If it was vice versa situation and old dog was in the gutter with his back broken he wouldn't call hocus pokus
to save him and his legion,he would simply DIE-I think Curze was much more loyal then Magnus and Lionel Johnson...
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ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/07/18 12:19:21
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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DatrhMarko wrote:Gabrial Seth wrote:and its not that magnus lost his mind its more of the fact that he was broken by his own father and brother
So he decided to join Horus:-)Thats why it isn't a tragedy and why he is a TRAITOR with a bullseye on his forhed....If it was vice versa situation and old dog was in the gutter with his back broken he wouldn't call hocus pokus
to save him and his legion,he would simply DIE-I think Curze was much more loyal then Magnus and Lionel Johnson...
Except if rabid dog thought for a second and instead of listening to Valdor and accepting Horus' orders and followed through with the Emperor's original orders to bring Magnus back to Terra, things would be a whole lot different.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/18 12:26:01
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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DatrhMarko wrote:Gabrial Seth wrote:and its not that magnus lost his mind its more of the fact that he was broken by his own father and brother
So he decided to join Horus:-)Thats why it isn't a tragedy and why he is a TRAITOR with a bullseye on his forhed....If it was vice versa situation and old dog was in the gutter with his back broken he wouldn't call hocus pokus
to save him and his legion,he would simply DIE-I think Curze was much more loyal then Magnus and Lionel Johnson...
Magnus was loyal but he wasn't presented with many options after the destruction of Prospero, be hunted by the Wolves and other loyalist chapters or be hunted by the Traitor Legions because he is still a threat. He sided with Horus because it was the only thing he could do really. But by going with that choice he automatically becomes a traitor.
Curze, loyal? 
Tadashi wrote:[Except if rabid dog thought for a second and instead of listening to Valdor and accepting Horus' orders and followed through with the Emperor's original orders to bring Magnus back to Terra, things would be a whole lot different.
But he did listen to the Emperor, the Warmaster is the Emperors military commander. If he hadn't listened to Horus he wouldn't have been obeying the Emperor.
Russ, which is quite unbelievable really, has no idea that Horus is a whopping big stinky pants traitor at this moment.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/18 12:28:46
No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/07/18 12:46:16
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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Pilau Rice wrote:DatrhMarko wrote:Gabrial Seth wrote:and its not that magnus lost his mind its more of the fact that he was broken by his own father and brother
So he decided to join Horus:-)Thats why it isn't a tragedy and why he is a TRAITOR with a bullseye on his forhed....If it was vice versa situation and old dog was in the gutter with his back broken he wouldn't call hocus pokus
to save him and his legion,he would simply DIE-I think Curze was much more loyal then Magnus and Lionel Johnson...
Magnus was loyal but he wasn't presented with many options after the destruction of Prospero, be hunted by the Wolves and other loyalist chapters or be hunted by the Traitor Legions because he is still a threat. He sided with Horus because it was the only thing he could do really. But by going with that choice he automatically becomes a traitor.
Curze, loyal?
Tadashi wrote:[Except if rabid dog thought for a second and instead of listening to Valdor and accepting Horus' orders and followed through with the Emperor's original orders to bring Magnus back to Terra, things would be a whole lot different.
But he did listen to the Emperor, the Warmaster is the Emperors military commander. If he hadn't listened to Horus he wouldn't have been obeying the Emperor.
Russ, which is quite unbelievable really, has no idea that Horus is a whopping big stinky pants traitor at this moment.
Curze remainded true to his beliefs,of course he was a traitor,but always had his motives and wasn't guided by a higher intelligence FROM THE begining like Magnus- who was consorting with a devil from the start....
Magnus bigest enemy was his EGO-to think you can outsmart Chaos GOD -arhitect of fate???Come on dudes...I' feel sorry only for Ahriman-he was really a good dude... btw the best thing would be if Magnus had died-then it would be a real tragedy...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/18 12:56:01
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/07/18 13:03:09
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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DatrhMarko wrote:Curze remainded true to his beliefs,of course he was a traitor,but always had his motives and wasn't guided by a higher intelligence FROM THE begining like Magnus- who was consorting with a devil from the start....
Magnus bigest enemy was his EGO-to think you can outsmart Chaos GOD -arhitect of fate???Come on dudes...I' feel sorry only for Ahriman-he was really a good dude...btw the best thing would be if Magnus had died-then it would be a real tragedy...
Magnus failing was his arrogance and his total belief that he was in control agreed, but regardless of his bargain, he was totally loyal to the Emperor until the Wolves sacked Prospero irrespective of whether he was being guided or not, that's not his fault.
Maybe Curze wasn't a traitor from that perspective thinking about it. He never changed the way he did things, maybe he was never loyal from the start.
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No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/07/18 13:07:58
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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Pilau Rice wrote:DatrhMarko wrote:Curze remainded true to his beliefs,of course he was a traitor,but always had his motives and wasn't guided by a higher intelligence FROM THE begining like Magnus- who was consorting with a devil from the start....
Magnus bigest enemy was his EGO-to think you can outsmart Chaos GOD -arhitect of fate???Come on dudes...I' feel sorry only for Ahriman-he was really a good dude...btw the best thing would be if Magnus had died-then it would be a real tragedy...
Magnus failing was his arrogance and his total belief that he was in control agreed, but regardless of his bargain, he was totally loyal to the Emperor until the Wolves sacked Prospero irrespective of whether he was being guided or not, that's not his fault.
Maybe Curze wasn't a traitor from that perspective thinking about it. He never changed the way he did things, maybe he was never loyal from the start.
Amen brother-so we agree -big red wasn't without sin- Leman's only sin is being Leman -and in a stupidest way he offered Magnus to surrender-rest is history or ash...
And if he was Loyal he would die loyal no matter what happened...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/18 13:09:40
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/07/18 13:21:25
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Dipping With Wood Stain
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Well, to be fair, Magnus INTENDED to die loyal. Or at least, not put up a fight. Of course, Ahriman and the rest of the Sons didn't much like that idea, heh.
But hearing all his sons dying defending their home planet proved too much for Magnus to bear - I can't really blame him much for wanting to save the remainder of his sons from something that wasn't really their fault.
I can still blame him for being an arrogant idiot in the first place, but eh.
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2012/07/18 13:35:55
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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DatrhMarko wrote:
Amen brother-so we agree -big red wasn't without sin- Leman's only sin is being Leman -and in a stupidest way he offered Magnus to surrender-rest is history or ash...
And if he was Loyal he would die loyal no matter what happened...
Oh totally, Magnus bought it on himself, we as the reader know it wasn't his fault, but from anyone in universe, it would look like he is a traitor.
Well, his pride was his downfall again here, he could have taken the beating like a man and let himself and his Legion be destroyed but nope. But honestly, which Primarch, baring Curze - his death was to prove a point, would give up without a fight.
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No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/07/18 13:47:03
Subject: Re:The Thousand Sons
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Was Magnus foolish? yes
Did he disobey orders?yes
Did he let his ego rule him? yes
Did he dabble in things that he shouldn't have? yes
Was he a traitor? meh, probably not
I think traitor implies that he was seeking the destruction of one who he was supposed to serve, but instead he was just "playing" with things that were way beyond his comprehension and then a series of unfortunate events led to him and his legion getting pwn'd.
and i agree that Ahriman is a victim here, from "A thousand Sons", he seemed like a fairly "good" dude, at least by 40k standards.
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 Frigian 582nd "the regulars" with thousand sons detachment  
5th Edition
W : L : D
23 : 20 : 7
6th Edition
W : L : D
Don't Know...alot of each
Bretonnians
W : L : D
4 : 2 : 0
"Those are Regulars! By God!" -Major General Phineas Riall
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2012/07/18 13:55:52
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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Pilau Rice wrote:DatrhMarko wrote:
Amen brother-so we agree -big red wasn't without sin- Leman's only sin is being Leman -and in a stupidest way he offered Magnus to surrender-rest is history or ash...
And if he was Loyal he would die loyal no matter what happened...
Oh totally, Magnus bought it on himself, we as the reader know it wasn't his fault, but from anyone in universe, it would look like he is a traitor.
Well, his pride was his downfall again here, he could have taken the beating like a man and let himself and his Legion be destroyed but nope. But honestly, which Primarch, baring Curze - his death was to prove a point, would give up without a fight.
Dude,that is my point also...cut the fanboy stuff and only add facts from 40k perspective and then you get who is true to himself who isn't... Real tragedy is reading Arhiman perspective of events and not being able to change things....
So from readers perspective they are innocent,but from 40k perspective quilty as hell-but we are living and reading 40k brothers....so Magnus was (oxymoron) LOYAL-TRAITOR even before heresy (for consorting with the devil) ...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/18 14:11:57
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/07/18 14:12:50
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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DatrhMarko wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:DatrhMarko wrote:
Amen brother-so we agree -big red wasn't without sin- Leman's only sin is being Leman -and in a stupidest way he offered Magnus to surrender-rest is history or ash...
And if he was Loyal he would die loyal no matter what happened...
Oh totally, Magnus bought it on himself, we as the reader know it wasn't his fault, but from anyone in universe, it would look like he is a traitor.
Well, his pride was his downfall again here, he could have taken the beating like a man and let himself and his Legion be destroyed but nope. But honestly, which Primarch, baring Curze - his death was to prove a point, would give up without a fight.
Dude,that is my point also...cut the fanboy stuff and only add facts from 40k perspective and then you get who is true to himself who isn't... Real tragedy is reading Arhiman perspective of events and not being able to change things....
Which foreshadows the increasing paranoia and ultimate fall of the Imperium from the light of reason and hope under the Imperial Truth, to the darkness of ignorance and fear under the Imperial Cult.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/07/18 14:17:46
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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Tadashi wrote:DatrhMarko wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:DatrhMarko wrote:
Amen brother-so we agree -big red wasn't without sin- Leman's only sin is being Leman -and in a stupidest way he offered Magnus to surrender-rest is history or ash...
And if he was Loyal he would die loyal no matter what happened...
Oh totally, Magnus bought it on himself, we as the reader know it wasn't his fault, but from anyone in universe, it would look like he is a traitor.
Well, his pride was his downfall again here, he could have taken the beating like a man and let himself and his Legion be destroyed but nope. But honestly, which Primarch, baring Curze - his death was to prove a point, would give up without a fight.
Dude,that is my point also...cut the fanboy stuff and only add facts from 40k perspective and then you get who is true to himself who isn't... Real tragedy is reading Arhiman perspective of events and not being able to change things....
Which foreshadows the increasing paranoia and ultimate fall of the Imperium from the light of reason and hope under the Imperial Truth, to the darkness of ignorance and fear under the Imperial Cult.
Thats because IT was a lie in the first place even if it was for greater good...but you cannot build imperium on a lie,or you can!?
As for Magnus again,Horus was the only quilty- not RUSS for being RUSS,so if somebody is to blame it's him-but NOOOO M joined Horus and become traitor- how stupid
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/18 14:31:12
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2012/07/18 14:31:01
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Magnus was not loyal.
It's the simplest thing in the world.
Emperor to Magnus, in a face-to-face meeting with other Primarchs in attendance: "If you disobey me you are a traitor. It's that important."
Magnus then disobeys.
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2012/07/18 15:20:56
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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Manchu wrote:Magnus was not loyal.
It's the simplest thing in the world.
Emperor to Magnus, in a face-to-face meeting with other Primarchs in attendance: "If you disobey me you are a traitor. It's that important."
Magnus then disobeys.
What about those years before Nikaea?
I do agree with you though, he had the warning and decided not to heed it.
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No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/07/18 15:25:32
Subject: Re:The Thousand Sons
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Man O' War
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This was the emperors worst mistake in the HH, the TTs were a very quiet legion, just slightly bending the rules to make learning magic easyer for them. Magnus is my fave primarch because he had the brains to warn them about Horus. but because horus was the emperors faveourite son he didn't want to admit he had turned to chaos. Magnus was loyal but after russ destroyed prospero he fled to the warp with his closest possesions.
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 Khador 75p
 Menoth 35p
 Circle 25p
 Legion 25p |
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