DatrhMarko wrote:I'think Sanguinius,Girlyman,Dorn,Manus,Russ even Corax would rather die then succumb to Chaos-and that is my friend's why they are Loyal....

Manchu wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:I'think Sanguinius,Girlyman,Dorn,Manus,Russ even Corax would rather die then succumb to Chaos-and that is my friend's why they are Loyal....

I agree. Mortarion would have been loyal had he not been faced with the death of his legion and his own demise. Fulgrim would have been loyal had his will not been overcome by a possessed sword. Angron would have been loyal had he been allowed to do nothing more than rule over his adopted planet. Alpharius would have been loyal had he not stooped to believe the whispering of xenos scum. Lorgar would have been loyal if the Emperor had only accepted his theology. Kurze would have been loyal if he wasn't fanatically convinced the Emperor was trying to kill him. Perturabo would have been loyal if he had the emotional maturity to be a true leader. Magnus would have been loyal had the Emperor been content to excuse his arrogance. And Horus would have been loyal if he had any trust in his father.

In other words, they were never loyal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, the Traitors could be used to teach schola children about sin:

Angron: He who questions his appointed place, his sin is inconstancy, anathema sit.

Mortarion: He who will not give his life to the Emperor, his sin is fear, anathema sit.

Perturabo: He whom the Emperor finds lacking, his sin is incompetence, anathema sit.

Fulgim: He who succumbs to temptation, his sin is perversity, anathema sit.

Nighthaunter: He who does not trust in the Emperor, his sin is despair, anathema sit.

Alpharius: He who consorts with xenos, his sin is self-pollution, anathema sit.

Lorgar: He who adores false gods, his sin is idolatry, anathema sit.

Magnus: He who trafficks with daemons, his sin is pride, anathema sit.

Horus: He who turns away from the Emperor, his sin is heresy, anathema sit.

Manchu wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, the Traitors could be used to teach schola children about sin:

Angron: He who questions his appointed place, his sin is inconstancy, anathema sit.

Mortarion: He who will not give his life to the Emperor, his sin is fear, anathema sit.

Perturabo: He whom the Emperor finds lacking, his sin is incompetence, anathema sit.

Fulgim: He who succumbs to temptation, his sin is perversity, anathema sit.

Nighthaunter: He who does not trust in the Emperor, his sin is despair, anathema sit.

Alpharius: He who consorts with xenos, his sin is self-pollution, anathema sit.

Lorgar: He who adores false gods, his sin is idolatry, anathema sit.

Magnus: He who trafficks with daemons, his sin is pride, anathema sit.

Horus: He who turns away from the Emperor, his sin is heresy, anathema sit.

I see how you came to your flawed conclusions my friend, however I hope the luminators of the Omnissiah will guide your way

You are right that Angron questioned his place in the great machine of the holy crusade, however do we not all wonder our place in the world. His true sin emerged in his squandering of the gifts the Omnissiah provided. His pride in martial prowess was so great he could not see beyond the veil of hatred to the bounty the Omnissiah. It is true the Omnissiah does not scorn war for that is where some of his greatest gifts can manifest, however, if one does not use these gifts for the benefits of his people you have squandered half of his great gifts. For the Omnissiah provided steel for the bolter so that we might strike down enemies of knowledge and then plow the grounds where his enemies lie to provide nutrients so we might continue on in our quest to praise him.

You are correct that a side of Mortarion's sin is fear however his sin's against the Omnissiah began long before his decision to turn his worship to the flesh god . You see Mortarion's obsession with the bodily lead him to scorn the Omnissiah's gifts, lack of supply forced Mortarion to worship his men as individuals instead of simply tools of the Omnissiah. His inability to release his worship of his own marines and thus by extension himself was his sin; Humanism and Hubris all.

Perturabo, perhaps most tragic of the Primarchs, yearned to bask in the bounty of the Omnissiah. The Omnissiah knows that each cog in a clock must serve its purpose or the clock wont tick, to say the Omnissiah found him incompetent is to say the Omnissiah created a piece to his Great Machine that was not necessary. This is as I'm sure you are aware at best ignorance at worse blasphemy. No you see Perturabo's true sin was envy. He saw the turning of the grand machinne of the Omnissiah and loved the great work so much he blinded himself to the integral part he played in the Omnissiah's Great Machine.

Fulgim placed his trust in perfecting the Great Machine but by doing so sinned in the way of Hubris. You see we must all strive toward the holy purpose the Omnissiah has placed before us, however, when one attempts to be the Omnissiah bending and twisting the will of machine spirits to your own end you alienate his most holy purpose. The Omnissiah wishes us to live in harmony with machine not bend them to our will, Fulgrim stepped off the path of the Omnissiah when he tried to become the Omnissiah.

The tragedy of Nighthunter was that he sought to bring the light of the Omnissiah to all worlds in the form of law, and above all else order. Laws like all institutions created by the Omnissiah's people to ensure the continued function of the Great Machine. However, Nighthunters lust for control over all things and obsession with order brought his downfall. The only way he was able to establish this perfect order was through the terror and manipulation of the spirit. Much like the Machine Spirit a human must have some semblance of freedom in order to function properly and thus by torture and fear are we driven from the rightful pursuit of his most holy works.

Alphrus is another tragic story. Much to the shame of his legion Alphrus sinned by way of adamancy. His drive to perfect his legions style of combat would have been glorious if he had driven towards it with temperance. However, the total disregard for the optimal efficiency of the Omnissiah forced Alphrus for the path of all that is good.

Lorgar thrice cursed of the Omnissiah was told of the great plan. Worship of material and conceptual data and the praise of the working order of the universe. Instead of accepting this as the true path he insisted on the worship of the immaterial and warp. The wise Omnissiah scorned him for his false worship in these areas while pointing him down the path of logic and the machine spirit, instead he again consorted with the immaterium to gain influence over the material and the ability to batter the machine spirit into either little less than a slave or worse a vessel for vial warp entities

Magnus's misguided tale of the false pursuit of knowledge is another tale of warning. His use of sorcerery was devastating to the material constructs of the Omnissiah and thus he was sentenced to repent for his sins of misguided worship by way of penance. His internment on the throne would have been the crushing of spirit his vane hubris needed however before he could be brought to repentance his worship of self drove him to run rather than face the scorn of the Omnissiah. As both a curse and blessing the Omnissiah blasted away their flesh when once again the Thousand Sons sought sorcery to avail them of the curse of the immaterium. Now they are little more than Machines themselves housing their souls as machine spirits in retribution for the penance their Primarch never served

Horus most beloved of the Omnissiah for his countless acts of bravery and the endless bounty of wealth he restored to the loyal followers of the Omnissiah was doomed by pride. For you see like all parts of the Great Machine Horus was only a piece of a whole in the Omnissiah's great works. As such, a piece, though given the ability to create themselves, must serve to the ends of its creator. Thus the merest of servitor must follow the path laid out by it's programing also must the Fabricator-General follow the path of the Omnissiah. Horus given the freedom by the Omnissiah to continue the consolidation of his most holy works, for the human like all organisms is a machine, do not forget (though it's flaws may be improved by the bounty of Omnissiah, I digress), sought to turn his most glorious machine against it's master after a realization of mortality. He did not trust in the Omnissiah's plan and thus through fear, huberis, Envy, unyielding adamancy to the need for order and dominance over the immaterium to master this mortality he turned to the path of heresy.

You're worship of the Omnissiah though misplaced should be much easier now that you have been corrected in your slight errings. May you see the Omnissiah's bounty before you and not turn form his most holy of works.

DatrhMarko wrote:I'm wondering if Magnus even today knowes that Horus pushed the red button on burning Prospero? Or is still blinded by his ego...I' mean no matter how he was cornered he still had a choice-die loyal or be a chaos b*tch- of course he made a wrong choice - preserving knowlege and his legion over loyality -those are facts,simple and crude
I'think Sanguinius,Girlyman,Dorn,Manus,Russ even Corax would rather die then succumb to Chaos-and that is my friend's why they are Loyal....

Manchu wrote:I agree. Mortarion would have been loyal had he not been faced with the death of his legion and his own demise. Fulgrim would have been loyal had his will not been overcome by a possessed sword. Angron would have been loyal had he been allowed to do nothing more than rule over his adopted planet. Alpharius would have been loyal had he not stooped to believe the whispering of xenos scum. Lorgar would have been loyal if the Emperor had only accepted his theology. Kurze would have been loyal if he wasn't fanatically convinced the Emperor was trying to kill him. Perturabo would have been loyal if he had the emotional maturity to be a true leader. Magnus would have been loyal had the Emperor been content to excuse his arrogance. And Horus would have been loyal if he had any trust in his father.

In other words, they were never loyal.

Brother Thomas wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Therion wrote:The Emperor tried to destroy the Chaos Gods. That was his agenda. The Emperor was pure and good. [...] The Chaos Gods cannot thrive and maybe not even survive if there is noone in the galaxy to worship or even remember them. Their power waxes and wanes. The Emperor's goal was not only reuniting the lost colonies of humanity, but to build a secular, atheist human race that doesn't believe or worship any gods.

First, "pure and good" have no place in this setting. Second, Chaos does not need to be worshiped in order to exist and it is extremely debatable that the Chaos gods depend on material beings for their existence in any sense (more likely, the emotions of material beings merely draw their attention -- you might say it "riles them up"). Finally, the idea of expunging all religion from the galaxy is absurd -- and it's especially absurd in the way the Emperor was (allegedly) going about it, with all of this basically religious iconography and religiously tinted ideology. The building of some atheistic empire simply doesn't make sense nor would its achievement actually hinder the Chaos Gods. What makes more sense is that the Great Crusade was an attempt to wipe out all competing religions (including Lorgar's) in favor of a universal one, constructed by the Emperor himself.

The chaos gods were created by the corruption, emotions, hate and generally all bad things of humanity and some other sentient beings.

DatrhMarko wrote:But main focus of "thousand sons" (when wolves attack prospero) is knowlege and preservation of the same ...they never thought about loyality and here's a newsflash - Magnus waited ( cooking a spell propably) while his legion is getting castrated...
Here is short description of Tzeench in wikia: No less a personage than the Primarch Magnus the Red found it impossible to steer clear of Tzeentch's temptations as his overwhelming desire to protect his Thousand Sons Legion's precious knowledge of the Warp and sorcery ultimately led him into the embrace of the Changer of Ways.

DatrhMarko wrote:So what Tadashi? Alpha legion is right then !?

Tadashi wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:So what Tadashi? Alpha legion is right then !?

In a way, yes. I doubt the Cabal was telling the truth, but it is obvious that the Imperium is doomed. Its fighting a losing battle in a war it cannot win. By abandoning the Imperial Truth, the Imperium's future is dead. A civilization without a future is dead.

"A great civilization cannot be destroyed from without unless it destroys itself from within."

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Wasnt the reason that the TS where destroyed, that Horus mislead russ, and ordered him, by proxy for the emperor, to wipe out the TS? It was never the emps goal to wipe out the TS or kill magnus right?

manchu wrote:I agree. Mortarion would have been loyal had he not been faced with the death of his legion and his own demise. Fulgrim would have been loyal had his will not been overcome by a possessed sword. Angron would have been loyal had he been allowed to do nothing more than rule over his adopted planet. Alpharius would have been loyal had he not stooped to believe the whispering of xenos scum. Lorgar would have been loyal if the Emperor had only accepted his theology. Kurze would have been loyal if he wasn't fanatically convinced the Emperor was trying to kill him. Perturabo would have been loyal if he had the emotional maturity to be a true leader. Magnus would have been loyal had the Emperor been content to excuse his arrogance. And Horus would have been loyal if he had any trust in his father.

In other words, they were never loyal.

manchu wrote:In fact, the Traitors could be used to teach schola children about sin:

Angron: He who questions his appointed place, his sin is inconstancy, anathema sit.

Mortarion: He who will not give his life to the Emperor, his sin is fear, anathema sit.

Perturabo: He whom the Emperor finds lacking, his sin is incompetence, anathema sit.

Fulgim: He who succumbs to temptation, his sin is perversity, anathema sit.

Nighthaunter: He who does not trust in the Emperor, his sin is despair, anathema sit.

Alpharius: He who consorts with xenos, his sin is self-pollution, anathema sit.

Lorgar: He who adores false gods, his sin is idolatry, anathema sit.

Magnus: He who trafficks with daemons, his sin is pride, anathema sit.

Horus: He who turns away from the Emperor, his sin is heresy, anathema sit.

daveNYC wrote:
Wha? So on the one hand you say you love Magnus' character, and on the other you have decided to destroy said character by saying that he (and the other traitor Primarchs) were never truely loyal. At which point you might as well say that they were going to turn regardless of what happened, so the entire character arc and development that occurs in their various storylines is moot.

DatrhMarko wrote:I' hate that they are changing and also making 40k fluff stupider,like in the old 40k codex, RUSS pokes Magnus in the eye(knowing that is Red's weaknes) ,which sounds good to me (Old Wolf was a guy who knowes opponent weakneses),but nooooo
heeee struck blindy in rage and pain....so that 1k sons fans can always say that it was lucky shot....
My fear is for Sanguinius- what would they do to him in coming books....

But main focus of "thousand sons" (when wolves attack prospero) is knowlege and preservation of the same ...they never thought about loyality and here's a newsflash - Magnus waited ( cooking a spell propably) while his legion is getting castrated...

Pilau Rice wrote:Some were never possibly loyal, but some clearly had the intention of trying to be. Lorgar, Magnus, Fulgrim, Mortarion despite his grudge ...

Tadashi wrote:The Burning of Prospero = the righteous castigation of a willful traitor

Establishment of the Imperial Inquisition = establishing a core defense against the terror unleashed by traitors

Rise of the Ecclesiarchy = the foundation of a ten-thousand year-old empire, something the Astartes could not do

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Some were never possibly loyal, but some clearly had the intention of trying to be. Lorgar, Magnus, Fulgrim, Mortarion despite his grudge ...

When we think about morality IRL, intention is very important. But that's not the only way of looking at it. Some people look to acts as the basis for morality, which is to say that an act itself is either good or bad. A person who commits a good act, even for bad reasons, has still done good. This act-based approach is actually better suited to 40k than the intention-based approach because intentionality simply isn't that important in the 40k universe. In 40k, what you mean to do is not very important. The ultimate example of this is the naive radical inquisitor -- who in turn is based on Magnus. Chaos does not need your permission to explode your brain into a Warp portal pouring out daemons. Maybe you wanted to use your psychic powers to heal your sick grandma. Too bad -- brain explodes! And you know what, you're a fething dick for using those powers at all no matter what you intended. Because now there's a daemonic incursion and your sick grandma was just eviscerated by a bloodletter not to mention the other millions they'll soon slaughter. This is a very harsh moral standard but hey it's the GrimDark after all.

The traitor Primarchs are interesting because they insist on living in a different moral universe than everyone else. Not only do they do "bad acts" (remember, for our purposes "good" = "obey the Emperor") but they constantly seek to justify them as good on a higher level. The Primarchs want to live in a universe where intention is important. This is an incredibly arrogant desire: basically, they think that what they intend should trump what they actually accomplish or fail to accomplish even though this is clearly not how their reality works. And the results of their own acts again and again confirm this truth. Magnus thinks his betrayal is justified because of an emergency -- a convenient excuse to do exactly what he wanted to in the first place, i.e., use magic no matter what the Emperor said ... and guess what? The Emperor was exactly right. You shouldn't feth around with that stuff because you don't actually understand what you're doing. Lorgar just wanted to worship the Emperor, right? Uh no. Lorgar just wanted to worship something, anything, as long as that thing was powerful. Guess what? Lorgar ends up worshiping daemons. As usual, the Emperor was exactly right.

Pilau Rice wrote:So none of the traitor Primarchs did any good in all the years they served and obeyed the Emperor, no worlds were bought to compliance in his name, no enemies were defeated to protect the Emperors People. It was all just bad stuff with their own agendas at heart and they were all bad?

Pilau Rice wrote:Lorgar wanted the Emperor to take his rightful place as a God and look, he was right too The Emperor might not have had a choice in the matter.

Manchu wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:So none of the traitor Primarchs did any good in all the years they served and obeyed the Emperor, no worlds were bought to compliance in his name, no enemies were defeated to protect the Emperors People. It was all just bad stuff with their own agendas at heart and they were all bad?

Unfortunately, whatever good they did is immaterial. The sick grandma example should make that clear. You wanted to psychically heal your sick grandma but all you managed to do was get her disemboweled by a daemon. Maybe you had bought her a nice birthday gift the year before. Well, the disembowelment thing kind of trumps it.

Pilau Rice wrote:Lorgar wanted the Emperor to take his rightful place as a God and look, he was right too The Emperor might not have had a choice in the matter.

I think you're missing the point of Lorgar. Lorgar just wanted a god to believe in. If there were no Warp Gods, he'd probably have ended up worshiping the Eldar or something. If he made it to M41 without finding anything to worship, he'd have started worshiping the Hivemind.