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2012/06/29 00:15:02
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
Eye of Terror
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The emperor made a big mistake sending the space wolves to destroy them. They were loyal to the end and all they wanted was to warn the emperor of empending doom via heresy. In my opinion the emperor made too many mistakes but thats off topic. Anyhow what were they like when they were loyal? Pre heresy? Were they all psykers or what? Did they shoot lightning out of there minds instead of using bolters? Did they have familys? Ect they seem so very different than every other legion (chapter)
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2012/06/29 00:32:52
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
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I don't know much about the TS or the HH apart from the basics, but as far as I know they weren't all pyskers, they were just prone to the mutation. Even post Heresy, they still use bolters, although they are imbued with really powerful chaos magicks that deal ridiculous amounts of damage. That's about all I know to your questions on the dust boys.
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2012/06/29 00:49:57
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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They weren't all psykers, otherwise there'd be no Rubric Marines at all.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 00:56:01
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Tadashi wrote:They weren't all psykers, otherwise there'd be no Rubric Marines at all.
"but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever. "
Nope they all had pyschic powers.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2012/06/29 01:03:43
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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[MOD]
Solahma
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The Thousand Sons weren't all extremely powerful psykers but they were all psykers.
The Emperor did not make a mistake regarding them. Magnus was a traitor. He masked his pride behind self-delusions of "good intentions." If he was truly loyal, he would have obeyed the Emperor. But because he cared more for his own ego than for his father, he slowly destroyed whatever trust the Emperor had formerly placed in him.
Magnus insisted that he knew better than the Emperor what was best for the Imperium. This is the very definition of treachery. The title "Master of Mankind" brooks no questioning except by traitors.
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2012/06/29 05:27:23
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Asherian Command wrote:Tadashi wrote:They weren't all psykers, otherwise there'd be no Rubric Marines at all.
"but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever. "
Nope they all had pyschic powers.
No, they didn't. The Rubric of Ahriman was made clear that those with little or no psychic ability, were the ones reduced to dust. Check Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 4th Edition, pp. 50-51. Manchu wrote:The Thousand Sons weren't all extremely powerful psykers but they were all psykers.
The Emperor did not make a mistake regarding them. Magnus was a traitor. He masked his pride behind self-delusions of "good intentions." If he was truly loyal, he would have obeyed the Emperor. But because he cared more for his own ego than for his father, he slowly destroyed whatever trust the Emperor had formerly placed in him.
Magnus insisted that he knew better than the Emperor what was best for the Imperium. This is the very definition of treachery. The title "Master of Mankind" brooks no questioning except by traitors.
Your forgetting that Magnus and the Sons weren't meant to be destroyed. Magnus' punishment was supposed to be to keep the Golden Throne under control while the Emperor oversaw the Terran defense and repaired the damage to the Webway. And the Thousand Sons would have gotten a pardon anyway - by the time of the Siege of Terra, the Edicts had been amended, considering that the Emperor personally directed Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians during the penultimate assault on the Imperial Palace. Check Index Astartes III, pp. 40-47.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/06/29 05:35:50
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 05:37:39
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Tadashi wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Tadashi wrote:They weren't all psykers, otherwise there'd be no Rubric Marines at all.
"but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever. "
Nope they all had pyschic powers.
No, they didn't. The Rubric of Ahriman was made clear that those with little or no psychic ability, were the ones reduced to dust. Check Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 4th Edition, pp. 50-51.
No it doesn't the newest codex Literally says that those who were inflicted with the flesh change were turned into rubric marines!
Thats what it says!
All Astartes in the Thousand Sons. (According to the Horus Heresy Books and the Book a Thousand Sons and visions of War) That all sons are Pyskers.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2012/06/29 05:49:53
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Asherian Command wrote:Tadashi wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Tadashi wrote:They weren't all psykers, otherwise there'd be no Rubric Marines at all.
"but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever. "
Nope they all had pyschic powers.
No, they didn't. The Rubric of Ahriman was made clear that those with little or no psychic ability, were the ones reduced to dust. Check Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 4th Edition, pp. 50-51.
No it doesn't the newest codex Literally says that those who were inflicted with the flesh change were turned into rubric marines! Thats what it says! All Astartes in the Thousand Sons. (According to the Horus Heresy Books and the Book a Thousand Sons and visions of War) That all sons are Pyskers.
"On the other hand, their battle-brethren whose psychic potential had been slight or non-existent were permanently changed. The armor of the normal battle-brothers was sealed shut, as if every clasp and joint had been welded shut." Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition, p.37 As for A Thousand Sons, you would notice that regular Battle-Brothers never made use of psychic powers, even after the Captains had ordered to do so, but only the Captains and other unit commanders. In other words, the Thousand Sons command structure was dominated by psykers, but the majority of the legion had little or no psychic ability. Even in Rebirth only Captain Kalliston and Sergeant Arvida had psychic powers among the squad that descended to the ruins of Tizca.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/29 05:52:34
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 06:09:40
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Mutating Changebringer
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Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor made a big mistake sending the space wolves to destroy them. They were loyal to the end and all they wanted was to warn the emperor of empending doom via heresy. In my opinion the emperor made too many mistakes but thats off topic. Anyhow what were they like when they were loyal? Pre heresy? Were they all psykers or what? Did they shoot lightning out of there minds instead of using bolters? Did they have familys? Ect they seem so very different than every other legion (chapter)
The Emperor never makes mistakes.
They broke the Emperors law to send their message.
The Emperor did not need to be warned of Horus' corruption... he already knew.
TS when loyal were warrior scholars.
They were all psykers of some degree (4th ed. codex is outdated in relation to the HH revelations).
They used bolters and lighting (and fire and telepathy and so on).
All marines made after their primarchs were found did have families.
They were quite different. So different they were put to the blade by Russ.
700th post! 
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2012/06/29 06:14:24
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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DeffDred wrote:
They were all psykers of some degree (4th ed. codex is outdated in relation to the HH revelations).
Unlikely. We haven't had anything about the Siege of Terra yet from the HH novels, so the Codex entry on the Rubric of Ahriman still stands. And besides, in both A Thousand Sons and Rebirth, it was obvious majority of the Sons had no psychic ability, with only Captains and unit commanders possessing psychic abilities, indicating only the command hierarchy were predominantly psykers.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 08:08:56
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
Eye of Terror
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Well, psykers are very prevalent in M41 and completely accepted among the SM chapters, so why were the poor thousand sons executed for it?
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2012/06/29 08:17:27
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Brother Thomas wrote:Well, psykers are very prevalent in M41 and completely accepted among the SM chapters, so why were the poor thousand sons executed for it?
They weren't supposed to be. The Emperor's orders were for Magnus and the Thousand Sons to brought to Terra, the former to control the Golden Throne while the Emperor undertook repairs to the Imperial Webway, and the latter to ensure Magnus' cooperation. Had things gone as the Emperor ordered, the Thousand Sons would have been granted pardon by the time of the Siege of Terra, and the Emperor would have personally directed the Terran defense.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/29 08:18:23
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 08:36:19
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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Tadashi wrote:Brother Thomas wrote:Well, psykers are very prevalent in M41 and completely accepted among the SM chapters, so why were the poor thousand sons executed for it?
They weren't supposed to be. The Emperor's orders were for Magnus and the Thousand Sons to brought to Terra, the former to control the Golden Throne while the Emperor undertook repairs to the Imperial Webway, and the latter to ensure Magnus' cooperation. Had things gone as the Emperor ordered, the Thousand Sons would have been granted pardon by the time of the Siege of Terra, and the Emperor would have personally directed the Terran defense.
Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light - A Thousand Sons
If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time. - Collected Visions
Manchu has this right.
Regardless of what other Primarchs did, Magnus should have known not to disobey the Emperor's orders. The Nikaea Edict was aimed more at the Thousand Sons than any other Legion.
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No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/06/29 08:39:37
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Pilau Rice wrote:Tadashi wrote:Brother Thomas wrote:Well, psykers are very prevalent in M41 and completely accepted among the SM chapters, so why were the poor thousand sons executed for it?
They weren't supposed to be. The Emperor's orders were for Magnus and the Thousand Sons to brought to Terra, the former to control the Golden Throne while the Emperor undertook repairs to the Imperial Webway, and the latter to ensure Magnus' cooperation. Had things gone as the Emperor ordered, the Thousand Sons would have been granted pardon by the time of the Siege of Terra, and the Emperor would have personally directed the Terran defense.
Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light - A Thousand Sons
If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time. - Collected Visions
Manchu has this right.
Regardless of what other Primarchs did, Magnus should have known not to disobey the Emperor's orders. The Nikaea Edict was aimed more at the Thousand Sons than any other Legion.
Yes, yes, I've heard all that, but my point was that the Emperor wanted Magnus to control the Golden Throne while He repaired the Webway. And besides, who else apart from the Emperor could control the Throne without dying in the process? There's no way Magnus would have been executed had he been brought to Terra. The Thousand Sons too would have fought for the Imperium by the time the Imperial Palace should have been attacked.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 08:54:10
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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Tadashi wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:Tadashi wrote:Brother Thomas wrote:Well, psykers are very prevalent in M41 and completely accepted among the SM chapters, so why were the poor thousand sons executed for it?
They weren't supposed to be. The Emperor's orders were for Magnus and the Thousand Sons to brought to Terra, the former to control the Golden Throne while the Emperor undertook repairs to the Imperial Webway, and the latter to ensure Magnus' cooperation. Had things gone as the Emperor ordered, the Thousand Sons would have been granted pardon by the time of the Siege of Terra, and the Emperor would have personally directed the Terran defense.
Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light - A Thousand Sons
If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time. - Collected Visions
Manchu has this right.
Regardless of what other Primarchs did, Magnus should have known not to disobey the Emperor's orders. The Nikaea Edict was aimed more at the Thousand Sons than any other Legion.
Yes, yes, I've heard all that, but my point was that the Emperor wanted Magnus to control the Golden Throne while He repaired the Webway. And besides, who else apart from the Emperor could control the Throne without dying in the process? There's no way Magnus would have been executed had he been brought to Terra. The Thousand Sons too would have fought for the Imperium by the time the Imperial Palace should have been attacked.
He had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, yes. But could he trust Magnus after he had already betrayed him? Tizca had been destroyed, apparently on the orders of the Emperor, would Magnus want to help the Emperor?
Magnus had been shown his fate at the hands of the Emperor, sat on the Throne and screaming into the warp, would he really want that?
Magnus would have been trialled as a Traitor and the Thousand Sons destroyed.
Or like you say, not. But I very much doubt the outcome you describe would have been the likely one.
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No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/06/29 08:58:53
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Pilau Rice wrote:
He had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, yes. But could he trust Magnus after he had already betrayed him? Tizca had been destroyed, apparently on the orders of the Emperor, would Magnus want to help the Emperor?
Only because Horus altered the Emperor's orders. Tizca would have left alone. And let me remind you, the only reason the Emperor let Malcador control the Golden Throne in the first place was because Magnus was unavailable.
Magnus had been shown his fate at the hands of the Emperor, sat on the Throne and screaming into the warp, would he really want that?
And just like the Chaos Powers' vision of the future to Horus, I know better than to trust visions given by the Powers of Chaos.
Magnus would have been trialled as a Traitor and the Thousand Sons destroyed.
No, they wouldn't. The Emperor has no one else apart from Himself who can keep the Golden Throne under control without dying in the process.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/29 08:59:22
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 09:12:46
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker
Eye of Terror
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So everyone thinks magnus is such a traitor, he contacted the emperor with the quickest and pnly means possibly to effectively warn the emperor of what was about to happen <sarcasm> wow, what a terrible guy. </sarcasm>
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2012/06/29 09:14:12
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
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Tadashi wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:
He had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, yes. But could he trust Magnus after he had already betrayed him? Tizca had been destroyed, apparently on the orders of the Emperor, would Magnus want to help the Emperor?
Only because Horus altered the Emperor's orders. Tizca would have left alone. And let me remind you, the only reason the Emperor let Malcador control the Golden Throne in the first place was because Magnus was unavailable.
Hence the 'apparently' in my post, still doesn't change the fact that Tizca was destroyed.
Nothing to do with the Emperor wanting to take the fight to Horus then?
Tadashi wrote:And just like the Chaos Powers' vision of the future to Horus, I know better than to trust visions given by the Powers of Chaos.
You know better as the reader, Magnus didn't. Magnus was already dancing a merry little jig to Tzeentchs tune, but his arrogance once again, made him oblivious to this.
Tadashi wrote:No, they wouldn't. The Emperor has no one else apart from Himself who can keep the Golden Throne under control without dying in the process.
He doesn't need Magnus now does he?
Brother Thomas wrote:So everyone thinks magnus is such a traitor, he contacted the emperor with the quickest and pnly means possibly to effectively warn the emperor of what was about to happen <sarcasm> wow, what a terrible guy. </sarcasm>
Given the circumstance he could have made a better choice in passing the message on to the Emperor. He wanted to show his Dad that sorcery was ok, look how that turned out, he nuked the Webway.
We know that he isn't a traitor, but the Emperor doesn't.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/29 09:17:05
No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
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2012/06/29 09:25:28
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Pilau Rice wrote:Tadashi wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:
He had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, yes. But could he trust Magnus after he had already betrayed him? Tizca had been destroyed, apparently on the orders of the Emperor, would Magnus want to help the Emperor?
Only because Horus altered the Emperor's orders. Tizca would have left alone. And let me remind you, the only reason the Emperor let Malcador control the Golden Throne in the first place was because Magnus was unavailable.
Hence the 'apparently' in my post, still doesn't change the fact that Tizca was destroyed.
Nothing to do with the Emperor wanting to take the fight to Horus then?
Tadashi wrote:And just like the Chaos Powers' vision of the future to Horus, I know better than to trust visions given by the Powers of Chaos.
You know better as the reader, Magnus didn't. Magnus was already dancing a merry little jig to Tzeentchs tune, but his arrogance once again, made him oblivious to this.
Tadashi wrote:No, they wouldn't. The Emperor has no one else apart from Himself who can keep the Golden Throne under control without dying in the process.
He doesn't need Magnus now does he?
Brother Thomas wrote:So everyone thinks magnus is such a traitor, he contacted the emperor with the quickest and pnly means possibly to effectively warn the emperor of what was about to happen <sarcasm> wow, what a terrible guy. </sarcasm>
Given the circumstance he could have made a better choice in passing the message on to the Emperor. He wanted to show his Dad that sorcery was ok, look how that turned out, he nuked the Webway.
We know that he isn't a traitor, but the Emperor doesn't.
Yes, all your points are valid. But I thought we were discussing what might have been.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 14:05:54
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Magnus did not simply "use the most efficient means to warn the Emperor." The ritual used by Magnus to contact Terra blew a hole through the Warp that allowed daemons to invade the Golden Palace from within.
When the Emperor tells you not to do something, don't do it.
Unless you're a traitor.
As I mentioned, the Emperor is the Master of Mankind -- and that includes Magnus. But Magnus thought of himself as the Emperor's peer and was bent on convincing the Emperor that his sorcerous ambitions were the key to the future. In other words, Magnus risked everything on the proposition that he was right and the Emperor was wrong. But the Emperor was right. This shouldn't have come as a surprise. But so blinded was Magnus by his pride that he could not see how his ostensible good intentions would bring about is own ruin; how what he believed in his delusion to be an attempt to help was just treachery.
As far as the old "Horus tricked Russ" bit goes, it hardly matters. If it's true, it wouldn't have been a hard trick to pull. After all, Russ was present when the Emperor told Magnus that he would kill Magnus and destroy his legion if Magnus disobeyed the edict of Nikaea. Whether or not the Emperor intended Magnus to be dragged back in chains to Terra, he would never have pardoned Magnus. I don't know where anyone would get the idea that the Emperor would forgive direct insubordination.
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2012/06/29 14:16:55
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Manchu wrote:Magnus did not simply "use the most efficient means to warn the Emperor." The ritual used by Magnus to contact Terra blew a hole through the Warp that allowed daemons to invade the Golden Palace from within.
Have to agree on that account.
I don't know where anyone would get the idea that the Emperor would forgive direct insubordination.
Because Magnus is the one else apart from the old man who can actually use the Throne and survive.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 14:24:35
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor made a big mistake sending the space wolves to destroy them. They were loyal to the end and all they wanted was to warn the emperor of empending doom via heresy. In my opinion the emperor made too many mistakes but thats off topic. Anyhow what were they like when they were loyal? Pre heresy? Were they all psykers or what? Did they shoot lightning out of there minds instead of using bolters? Did they have familys? Ect they seem so very different than every other legion (chapter)
They did not have families (no Space Marines have families), although Ahriman was created along with his twin brother. They did use psychic powers a LOT during their battles, to the point that Ahriman chastised some of his brethren for being too dependent on them and neglecting their other martial training. They were quite frightening in combat, with some using telepathy to steal information from their enemies and coordinate the Sons, the pyrokines incinerating huge swaths of enemies, telekines creating impenetrable force barriers, and the augurs predicting the immediate future to give them even more advantages. They weren't all psykers, but most had some level of the spark. The only real source we have on them pre-Heresy is the Thousand Sons novel, and all of the characters we meet are high-level psykers.
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2012/06/29 14:26:44
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Tadashi wrote:Because Magnus is the one else apart from the old man who can actually use the Throne and survive.
But as PR noted above, the Emperor could not trust Magnus with any responsibility after Magnus disobeyed him regarding Nikaea. So unless using the Golden Throne requires no voluntary will (like some kind of terrible punishment; a kind of "electric chair"), the Emperor could not have let Magnus do it one way or the other.
The trouble people have with Magnus is guaging when he fell. Most people believe he only fell to Chaos right when Russ was about to kill him. But actually, Chaos is a lot less sudden than this. Magnus was firmly in the clutches of the Ruinous Powers by the moment he decided to disobey the Emperor. Bringing him back to Terra would not have prevented his corruption. And I doubt there could be any means to rehabilitate him.
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2012/06/29 14:31:31
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Manchu wrote:Tadashi wrote:Because Magnus is the one else apart from the old man who can actually use the Throne and survive.
But as PR noted above, the Emperor could not trust Magnus with any responsibility after Magnus disobeyed him regarding Nikaea. So unless using the Golden Throne requires no voluntary will (like some kind of terrible punishment; a kind of "electric chair"), the Emperor could not have let Magnus do it one way or the other. The trouble people have with Magnus is guaging when he fell. Most people believe he only fell to Chaos right when Russ was about to kill him. But actually, Chaos is a lot less sudden than this. Magnus was firmly in the clutches of the Ruinous Powers by the moment he decided to disobey the Emperor. Bringing him back to Terra would not have prevented his corruption. And I doubt there could be any means to rehabilitate him.
There could have been. Even in His final confrontation with Horus, the Emperor held back in the hope Horus would come to his senses and so give the Emperor a chance at redeeming His greatest son. I believe only once they became a Daemon Prince or had actually sworn allegiance to the Powers was all hope of redemption gone. So until that fateful moment before the Pyramid of Photep, Magnus could still have been redeemed. Omegus wrote:Brother Thomas wrote:The emperor made a big mistake sending the space wolves to destroy them. They were loyal to the end and all they wanted was to warn the emperor of empending doom via heresy. In my opinion the emperor made too many mistakes but thats off topic. Anyhow what were they like when they were loyal? Pre heresy? Were they all psykers or what? Did they shoot lightning out of there minds instead of using bolters? Did they have familys? Ect they seem so very different than every other legion (chapter)
They did not have families (no Space Marines have families), although Ahriman was created along with his twin brother. They did use psychic powers a LOT during their battles, to the point that Ahriman chastised some of his brethren for being too dependent on them and neglecting their other martial training. They were quite frightening in combat, with some using telepathy to steal information from their enemies and coordinate the Sons, the pyrokines incinerating huge swaths of enemies, telekines creating impenetrable force barriers, and the augurs predicting the immediate future to give them even more advantages. They weren't all psykers, but most had some level of the spark. The only real source we have on them pre-Heresy is the Thousand Sons novel, and all of the characters we meet are high-level psykers.
Salamanders have families.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/29 14:32:41
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 14:36:47
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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[MOD]
Solahma
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I don't think so. This is the grim darkness, after all. Second chances don't exist. There are two options: absolute, unquestioning loyalty to the Emperor - OR - betrayal. This is the dichotomy revealed by the Horus Heresy itself. In fact, this is the point of the story of Magnus. Magnus thought he was the master of the Warp; ironically and tragically, the Warp was mastering him the entire time. Magnus underestimated the powers he was playing with, believing he was on the "safe side" of taint -- that he could "come back" if he started to go too far. The reality was that he was already too far.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/29 14:37:08
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2012/06/29 14:38:42
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Manchu wrote:I don't think so. This is the grim darkness, after all. Second chances don't exist. There are two options: absolute, unquestioning loyalty to the Emperor - OR - betrayal. This is the dichotomy revealed by the Horus Heresy itself. In fact, this is the point of the story of Magnus. Magnus thought he was the master of the Warp; ironically and tragically, the Warp was mastering him the entire time. Magnus underestimated the powers he was playing with, believing he was on the "safe side" of taint -- that he could "come back" if he started to go too far. The reality was that he was already too far.
I would argue Chaos wasn't as strong then as it is now. Back then, Imperial Truth and progress had a chance of succeeding. Now, you're probably right. The strength of Chaos now is such that only complete and unwavering determination can ensure survival. Let us climb over the piles of our own dead and claim the future with bloodstained hands.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/29 14:39:04
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 14:57:19
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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[MOD]
Solahma
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It depends on if you think the Imperial Truth was in fact true. For my own part, I think the "Imperial Truth" was just a part of the Emperor's plan.
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2012/06/29 15:01:36
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Manchu wrote:It depends on if you think the Imperial Truth was in fact true. For my own part, I think the "Imperial Truth" was just a part of the Emperor's plan.
Agreed. The Imperial Truth probably worked on the principle that if enough people believed in it, the Warp would make it true. The Emperor probably had something else in mind regarding the Imperial Truth. Perhaps He planned to use it to stabilize the Chaos Powers without the need for Him to die and exert Himself in the Warp directly.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/29 15:07:25
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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[MOD]
Solahma
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I think the "Imperial Truth" was basically the Emperor wiping the slate clean, as it were. Over the millennia, humanity had developed all kinds of ideas to explain things like authority and what a good society is like. The Emperor, knowing what was actually going on behind the veneer of realspace, believed that humanity would have to have drastic change in its cultural foundations if it was going to dominate the galaxy. So the Great Crusade tore across the galaxy, smashing the local beliefs and cultures of long-lost humans to prepare the way for something else. Whether the Emperor himself even totally understood what that "something else" would be is debatable but I tend to think he did. And so, the Ruinous Powers did not show Horus a lie. They showed him the truth and relied on his own arrogance to make him reject the vision in favor of treachery -- which ironically brought about the very vision they showed him. Same with Magnus.
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2012/06/29 15:14:22
Subject: The Thousand Sons
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Manchu wrote:Tadashi wrote:Because Magnus is the one else apart from the old man who can actually use the Throne and survive.
But as PR noted above, the Emperor could not trust Magnus with any responsibility after Magnus disobeyed him regarding Nikaea. So unless using the Golden Throne requires no voluntary will (like some kind of terrible punishment; a kind of "electric chair"), the Emperor could not have let Magnus do it one way or the other.
The trouble people have with Magnus is guaging when he fell. Most people believe he only fell to Chaos right when Russ was about to kill him. But actually, Chaos is a lot less sudden than this. Magnus was firmly in the clutches of the Ruinous Powers by the moment he decided to disobey the Emperor. Bringing him back to Terra would not have prevented his corruption. And I doubt there could be any means to rehabilitate him.
Actually, Magnus was firmly in the clutches of the Ruinous Powers when he made a deal with Tzeench to save his Legion. A lot of what people see as unbridled arrogance really strikes me as desperation and denial. He knew he crossed a line when he made that deal, which is why he was so desperate not to let his sons know about it.
Of course, you could argue that the Primarchs that fell to Chaos (Lorgar and Magnus in particular) were in the clutches of Chaos from the moment they were spirited away from the Emperor's secret laboratory, since we're told in several books that they worked their influence on the children gestating in the capsules (like Lorgar being assaulted by nightmares, which caused him to shy away from his powers).
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Fluff for the Fluff God! 