Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Basically, in low point games, don't take Special Characters unless you desperately need/want one (Szeras is pretty good in low point games), don't take Formations unless that's what your entire army is going to be (Destroyer Cult, for example), and don't take more than 1 vehicle.

Best is to have a good mix of small sized units with different guns, and maybe one assault unit (some Scarabs, a unit of Spyders, or a blob of Flayed Ones).

Actually yeah, Spyders are pretty great in low point games. 2 of them only comes to 100 points and is 6 wounds at T6, most armies would have problems dealing with that at low points values.

So, Tau are in full steam now. Why is this a big deal to this thread? Well, they're one of our 3 (4 if you count Renegades) Allies of Convenience. And given that Orks don't bring a lot to us and the rest are CtA (which I personally am not a huge fan of), that means they're pretty worth considering.

Riptides can be taken in units of 3 now, if you feel like being that type of person. And they have a proper Gargantuan, though it becomes a bit of an issue fitting one into a Necron list if we really want it.

They have Formations as well, which is a nice alternative to an Allied Detachment if we want to add certain models to our force. Main ones worth looking at in my book are the new Optimized Stealth Cadre for tank hunting and generally good units, and the updated Fire Base Support Cadre, which no longer gives PE(Space Marines), but now gives Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter if everything shoots at the same unit, and no longer requires 3 man Broadside teams. 2 Broadsides to get a unit of 3 Riptides into a Necron army is a decent investment, though I guess you could get the same with an Allied Detachment (though lose the USRs).

Riptides aren't exactly necessary for Necrons to have, but they are a great fire magnet and have the ability to put out some pretty stupid amount of shooting if they get rolling with Nova Charges. I could perhaps see myself picking up one of those two formations to stick onto my Necrons on occasion.

The loveliest thing for us, I think, is the new Tidewall Rampart thingy that they got. As of yet, there is no distinction that it can only be taken by Tau, and it will be sold in sections very soon. Just the wall part (as we can't use the Drone or Gun section) is like a souped up Aegis Defense Line - same cover save, but can move and can bounce back shots. Put some Warriors on there and they'll be even more annoying to kill than they already are. Only lacking the Comms Relay/Gun options compared to an ADL, but it''s an option.

Anything out of this release you are planning on utilizing? Will you be allying in some Tau? Or just learning ways to beat their new flavor of cheese?

 vipoid wrote:

Requizen wrote:
So, Tau are in full steam now. Why is this a big deal to this thread? Well, they're one of our 3 (4 if you count Renegades) Allies of Convenience. And given that Orks don't bring a lot to us and the rest are CtA (which I personally am not a huge fan of), that means they're pretty worth considering.

Riptides can be taken in units of 3 now, if you feel like being that type of person. And they have a proper Gargantuan, though it becomes a bit of an issue fitting one into a Necron list if we really want it.

They have Formations as well, which is a nice alternative to an Allied Detachment if we want to add certain models to our force. Main ones worth looking at in my book are the new Optimized Stealth Cadre for tank hunting and generally good units, and the updated Fire Base Support Cadre, which no longer gives PE(Space Marines), but now gives Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter if everything shoots at the same unit, and no longer requires 3 man Broadside teams. 2 Broadsides to get a unit of 3 Riptides into a Necron army is a decent investment, though I guess you could get the same with an Allied Detachment (though lose the USRs).

Riptides aren't exactly necessary for Necrons to have, but they are a great fire magnet and have the ability to put out some pretty stupid amount of shooting if they get rolling with Nova Charges. I could perhaps see myself picking up one of those two formations to stick onto my Necrons on occasion.

The loveliest thing for us, I think, is the new Tidewall Rampart thingy that they got. As of yet, there is no distinction that it can only be taken by Tau, and it will be sold in sections very soon. Just the wall part (as we can't use the Drone or Gun section) is like a souped up Aegis Defense Line - same cover save, but can move and can bounce back shots. Put some Warriors on there and they'll be even more annoying to kill than they already are. Only lacking the Comms Relay/Gun options compared to an ADL, but it''s an option.

Anything out of this release you are planning on utilizing? Will you be allying in some Tau? Or just learning ways to beat their new flavor of cheese?

I miss 5th.

I mean, no one is forcing you to take Allies or Fortifications.

Has anyone tried 2-3 Doomsday Arks on a Skyshield Landing Pad? Doomsday Arks aren't necessarily that bad, 4HP on AV13 is fairly survivable, especially at a 72" range.

For that extra 75 points, you can give them a 4++ and a higher viewpoint to see downfield (nice to see over lower terrain). That basically means you never have to Jink (which you don't want to anyway) and increases the survivability of your big boomers.

Especially if you can screen it with mobs of Troops or a few Wraith units, keeping it safe while putting out small arms fire and/or tying up scary things. It seems like a nice way to round out a foot army that isn't using other shenanigans, or even paired with more Ghost Arks for that AV13 spam.

I played against a Tau CAD with my Daemons last week. Not using the Hunter Contingent, but he did have the Gunrig and a Stormsurge. Not enough info at the moment, I'm afraid.

I don't think there's a lot specifically that we need to fear yet. Solar Staff gets a bit worse because they can use Combined Fire + Markerlights to bump up BS, and if you were running an army that relied heavily on Jink (like mass Ghost Arks or lots of Tomb Blades), the same thing but with Ignores Cover.

But, things like Orikanstar and Wraiths are still just as durable. They have a few more things that can ID us at S10, but honestly if you're already used to dealing with Eldar straight up ignoring RP with D then you're already fine.

The Stormsurge is not nearly as scary as the Wraithknight imo, but it's still something to look out for. I tied it up with Screamerstar in that game, but Stomps are still a thing. Still, it's about the same required effort to kill for most of our shooting (though Destroyers have a nice time wounding on 5s), but easier to kill in Assault (Hyperphase Swords wound on 5s, Warscythes on 3s, Wraiths on 4s), so charging it with an Assault unit will usually do the trick. As is normal for Tau.

The things that are really scared of the new Tau are Deathstars or other power units that rely on Invis or heavy cover, thanks to Markerlight sharing. I guess the big thing will be when we see which formations really come through. The Suit one that comes in on T2 automatically and Deep Strikes a bunch of scary stuff could be a new standard in the future.

They haven't really changed much for Necrons, I think.

 krodarklorr wrote:
So I'm debating playing this god forsaken game again. What about the new Tau do I really need to look out for?

The book wasn't a major update. The only things that seem to have changed from 6e units is that Riptides can be in units now and Crisis suits can be in squadrons of 9. I think some of the "one per army" wargear may have changed to be more widespread (FNP thingy, for instance). So, fighting old units is about the same with only small tweaks.

The new models to look out for:

Commander can take an option to become a FMC but it's really not that great. Probably won't see it outside of casual games or gimmick lists, really easy to kill.

New Breachers are kinda cool (really strong guns if they get within 8"), but if Tau get that close we're just gonna kill them. We don't really care about AP2 that much with RP.

Ghostkeel is kind of interesting. Jet Pack Monstrous Creature with a good gun that can come in units and always has Cover saves. Probably Wraith fodder, but for the rest of our army relatively tough to take down. MC spam Tau might be a very real thing.

The Stormsurge is a pretty solid piece of equipment. While, again, Necrons are among the armies that care least about large amounts of long range fire thanks to our durability, just be aware that if this thing anchors down behind an enemy line you might be in for more hurt than you're used to. And if you assault it, the thing still has Stomp, probably a 4++, and FNP, so don't expect to steamroll it as easily as most of their other MCs.

The terrain is pretty solid. But, it's nothing overall special imo. The wall is a souped up version of an Aegis line, Tomb Blades will still laugh at them, as will Assault units. The Gunrig is a nice S10 AP1 gun emplacement, and can really scare our stronger units, but isn't overpowered. The Droneport is terrain with Drones as far as I can tell, so... Drones never really bothered me so I dunno what to say about that.

Overall, the same tactics should work. I feel like the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel will show up a lot, as will the Tidewall and the Gunrig. But, if you're ready to deal with 6e Tau, you should be fine dealing with 7e Tau. IMO, the buffs that they got really made them strong at dealing with Invisible, Cover based Deathstars. Our Deathstars should be fine unless you were leaning really heavily on the Solar Staff to win you games.

 skoffs wrote:
Also, how is it I only just realized:
Solar Thermasite gives +1 to attacks (shooting and melee)
Gauntlet of the Conflagrator is S7

ST + GotC = a lot of near inescapable instant death!
(followed up by even more instant death, as the guy holding them will probably be carrying a Warscythe as well)

I can't remember, can the Destroyer Lord take ST?
If so, the new D&D combo ("Death[mark] & Destroy[er Lord]") is looking a HELL of a lot more juicy.

Interesting catch. Overlord in a Night Scythe with both could drop onto a T4 unit and make things very uncomfortably dead. Pity that everything in

The DLord can't take it, no. Overlords and Crypteks only. So techincally, you could still do it with a Gauntlet/Thermasite Overlord or Cryptek in a unit that uses Veil/Obyron shenanigans with Deathmarks, but that's about it.

Shame that the Mephrit Dynasty Detachment is pretty bad compared to Decurion or CAD.

So it's possible to run a double CAD army of 30 Wraiths with just min units of Immortals and 2 DLords backing them up. I have trouble deciding whether or not this list actually works. On the one hand, it shouldn't, because it's freaking stupid and only has 20 guns. On the other hand, Wraiths are... kinda good.

More reasonably, I'm starting to consider the 24 Wraith list with a large amount of ObSec troops. After playing with Destroyers for so long, it feels odd not having any hard-hitting guns, but I think with the amount of GCs, SHVs, and Deathstars in the game right now, having lots of fast-moving, Fearless Assault dudes is very key to controlling the board.

At least, until GW decides to give us a big GC C'tan. Then I'll just be taking that and cackling maniacally the whole time.

ObSec is a great rule. Especially if you're playing against an opponent who has a lot of it, such as a Battle Company or Eldar Scatbike spam. It's one of those rules that you don't think about until you don't have it. And Warriors are great for it - cheap, durable, good guns against anything but MCs.

As much as I love 4+ RP, the static nature of most of the Formations makes it pretty hard to get the exact units you want without a hefty point sink somewhere else. Sure, everyone loves RP and Scarabs are good, but if you want a lot of Wraiths then you can't beat a CAD. Single ICs that aren't Overlords as well.

Not to say Decurions are bad. 4+ RP, MTC, Relentless - all great for Necrons. It depends on what you want and your battle plan. Which is actually good design, as it makes for a desicion rather than one always being strictly better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you're trying to beat a Battle Company at OS you won't win. Why bother even trying to contest?

Because if the choices are "get some points with ObSec" and "get 0 points because you can't do diddly about objectives", occasionally the former is an ok choice. If nothing else, you can deny points by having hard to kill ObSec camping markers.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Eh, the only time I had an issue with Obj Sec was when I was playing against my buds IG with a metric gak ton of Obj Sec units, and the game type was Contact Lost, in which you have to control objectives at the start of your turn to draw more.

That game still ended in a tie, so....

If you play marines or eldar against a solid player you'll notice. It's mostly maelstrom BTW, eternal war its less of an issue. I have seen games get blown out by turn 2 due to obsec. Letting them grab a random objective here or there isn't the biggest issue, it is when they almost automatically score things like supremacy and ascendancy and leap ahead of you by several points in a turn. It hurts in contact lost like hell and it also gets pretty annoying in spoils of war when you lose cards to your opponent.

Necrons are super durable which is why having obsec on them is SUPER handy, Decurion is still great but I wouldn't suggest it is an auto take over a standard CAD is all I am saying.

That's the truth. When your opponent is 6-8 units of Scatbikes with ObSec and they can move 30" per turn and go from holding 0 objectives to 6 just like that, you begin to realize how much having ObSec matters.

At the very least, I'd like to have some for my own board edge objectives. That way, instead of just ignoring the Warriors/Immortals, they'll actually soak some fire away from my Destroyers/Wraiths/etc.

It's almost worth bringing a CAD attached to a Decurion for a bit of "best of both worlds". ObSec guys can camp objectives while Decurion Troops walk forward and are hardy, or if the opponent doesn't have the mobile ObSec, you can use the CAD Troops as fodder while your Decurion Troops hold objectives and don't die.

The big thing that I like the Reclamation Legion for over CAD is Tomb Blades. Giving them 4+ RP and MTC is really hard in a CAD, but Decurion Tomb Blades are really, really fast and tough.

ION, for anyone who hasn't been paying attention to the latest releases, Tau just got a Formation that is just 3 units of Riptides with bonuses (+1 BS for shooting at a target another Riptide has shot, reroll Nova Reactor, and once-per-game each Riptide can shoot twice if it doesn't move). I have a feeling 3 Riptides with Ion (AP2) guns and various add-ons might be a pretty nice addition for Necrons, especially a

Not sure how to compare a IA Riptide to Heavy Destroyers though. For more than the cost of 3 (4 once you put on upgrades), it has a higher Toughness, but less Wounds. It does have that 2+ save, though, so that's good. And a baseline 5++ with the possibility for 3++ if you use your Nova Reactor on that instead of the gun. More susceptible to ID than the Destroyers, but stronger against small arms fire. Extra guns since it has the secondary weapon. Less chance to hit since BS3 before the Formation bonus and no PE, but the ability to have a Large Blast. Technically slightly better in Assault since it's tougher and has S6, though still not great at it. The IA (and HBC, at that) are longer range, which makes it a bit better against those pesky things that like to camp at the back of the board.

It's an interesting comparison, to say the least. I'm not really sure which is a better take.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.

I have tried them on multiple occasions and disagree. For more than triple the points of a Whip Coil, you get a gun that works sometimes, on an Assault unit.

Wraiths are for combat. Putting guns on them when you can have a bonus to Assault instead is counter-productive. Is there that chance that you can roll a 6 and instagib a Dreadknight of Hive Tyrant? Sure. But fishing for 6s on a single shot gun has never been ideal, effects like that are best done en masse, hopefully with some sort of reroll. Oh, sure, you can stick a DLord onto them and get a minor reroll.

On average with a DLord in the unit, that's a 90.7% chance to get a single 6 auto pen/ID out of 6 shots. And doesn't ignore Cover or Invulns, so even lower on any target worth shooting it at.

Wraiths are Assault units best used for ripping apart MSU targets or tying up scary things as best they can. Once they get into Assault or targeted down (which they will be), those guns that increase their points by 25% are useless. Against MSU, blobs, cover campers with Shroud and/or Stealth, Invuln-heavy units (like Storm Shields) or Invisibility, those guns are really wasted points. Whip Coils are cheaper by a large margin and will always be useful as long as you reach combat at some point in the game. Which you will, thanks to 12" move Beasts that ignore all Terrain (including Impassable) and have Fleet.

Basically you're killing 60 points on the hope that:
a) your opponent will have something big and scary that you want to instagib
b) it won't be Invisible, behind cover, have ablative bodyguard wounds, or have some sort of reliable Invuln save
c) you roll slightly higher than average and kill it in one shot

That's a lot of points for a relatively small hope. The thing they're better used for isn't hoping for that chance that you'll instagib a big expensive target, but rather for hunting down 2+ save units that don't rely on cover, like Terminators. But TEQs that don't use Invis or Storm Shields aren't "in the meta", so that's not really a good reason to bring them.

I mean, if you have 60 points left over with your Harvest list and think it's more valuable than 3 Scarab bases or a handful more Troops/upgrades and don't think you need Whip Coils, then go for it. But it's become a very hard sell for me.

col_impact wrote:
Beamers can really work, you just need to make sure the wraiths don't get stuck in combat. If they move, shoot, assault, and wipe the unit they shot at and assaulted in one round of close combat then the beamers are available for use the following turn.

So you need to support the Beamer unit with a killy D Lord (void blade?) that makes the entire unit killier and use your shooty troops to soften up the beamers assault targets so that the wraiths finish the job in 1 round of assault.

So you need really good mobile shooting support in the form of tomb blades and a destroyers cult (which you have if you brought a Reclamation Legion Decurion with a Canoptek Harvest and a Destroyer Cult)

Basically you want to really avoid getting only one volley of beamer fire out of a unit that can easily get locked into combat for 2+ turns unless you fully support it.

That doesn't make much sense. The gun and the Wraith's profile don't really compliment each other in that manner.

-The gun you want to use to ID something big. But if the guns don't work, your AP- Rending attacks probably aren't going to drop it in any sort of quick manner (Dreadknights, WKs, etc).
-The things that Wraiths are good at killing are mid-sized units that don't have too high of saves, or vehicles that they can kill with their massed attacks. Neither of which you need 60 points of T-Beamers to kill.
-The things that Wraiths are good at tying up are hard-to-kill units like Screamerstar or other Deathstars with no H&R. Generally these things have good enough Invuln or Cover saves that AP2 doesn't matter.

There really isn't a unit I can find that you would both want to shoot the "maybe ID" guns at and also think you could kill with Wraiths in 1-2 rounds of combat. Either the guns are overkill because the Wraiths would kill the unit anyway, or if it's something that needs the ID gun, Wraiths probably can't kill it before their next shooting phase.

You can't make Wraiths a specialist shooting unit and an Assault unit. It doesn't really work, in any army even.

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.

Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.

I'll be honest: that's one of the main things attracting me.

If you're just looking for AP2 guns, I feel like Praetorians might just be the better go. They lose the ID chance, but if you just want a fast unit that shoots and ignores armor, Rod Praetorians do it at a higher Strength, for 12 points cheaper, and don't require a Formation to shoot.

I read somewhere else that European Necron tournament players have been using Tomb Blades and Praetorians to great success lately, just Decurion MSU type things. I'd like to try it, unfortunately I don't own any Praetorians yet.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Where did you read that?

I've seen Tomb Blades being used in tournaments over here since they're good, but I've not seen people use Praetorians. Shame, as they're theoretically amazing.

Well, maybe not great success, hyperbole on my part. Someone on Frontline said that they were "all the rage" in Europe, which I can see being relatively true.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Providing a source would still be nice!

A guy posted about it here.

I actually want to try something similar. If you're just going MSU Decurion and want to get mobility, you can do a lot worse than min Praetorian units. Only issue is that the Stalker will need to be closely guarded to prevent immediate death.

 skoffs wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.

Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.

I'll be honest: that's one of the main things attracting me.

If you're just looking for AP2 guns, I feel like Praetorians might just be the better go. They lose the ID chance, but if you just want a fast unit that shoots and ignores armor, Rod Praetorians do it at a higher Strength, for 12 points cheaper, and don't require a Formation to shoot.

Well, yes, but Praets lack that sweet sweet inv save Wraiths are blessed with.
With that alone it should make them more survivable.

Sure, but maybe not as much as you'd think. For less than the price of 6 Beamer Wraiths, you can get 10 Praetorians. It's about even when you consider the taxes on their formations, so let's compare.

Against AP4 or worse weaponry, they're the same. Praets in the formation have MTC, so they should basically always have a cover save. They also always have RP, even against T1 alpha strikes, and don't rely on a single model surviving to keep it. Against S10 or otherwise ID shooting, Wraiths are actually kinda worse because W2 goes away.

In a straight up comparison, Wraiths are indeed harder to take down. But Praetorians aren't exactly made out of paper mache either. Those 10 Praetorians also get more shots, at a higher Strength, and are two units that can move around independently rather than clumped up.

While Wraiths are probably the better Assault choice (as more sticking power in Assault is generally better), if you want to compare 12" AP2 guns, I don't think I'd pick Wraiths over Praetorians.

 skoffs wrote:
Granted, I mostly agree with the above, but when against the things Necrons tend to struggle with (MCs/GCs/Knights/etc), how would Harvest Beamer Wraiths compare versus the rest of our contenders?

Look at my math above. Even with a DLord, you're not looking at a statistically likely chance to get a single 6 out of a full unit. And that's before Invulns or Cover, which most of those MCs/GCs/SHVs that give us trouble have.

If you want to kit your list out to deal with them, use the DCult and have stock Wraiths to tie them up/chip away instead. We don't have the capability to drop a hard target in one go like Eldar or Imperials have.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That 90% ain't bad when you think about it. A Wraithknight outside of cover takes D3 wounds before the charge, a Dreadknight that failed Sanctuary will die 60% of the time, etc. I like those chances VERY much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you can give the Wraiths Shred. That should make the odds much better though I haven't done the math on it.

Wraithknights can take Invuln saves, and in my experience generally do. Otherwise, if they're just taking the D guns, they're going to spend the first turn or two outside of the Wraiths' range shooting with much better weaponry. I mean yeah, you might instagib that Dreadknight, but again, you're paying an extra 60 points and the opponent might not even have a suitable target in their list anyway. I mean, if you wanna use them, then go for it, I'm just saying that I think overall you could spend those points on something else and be better off.

Also Shred wouldn't affect the guns. 'S nice if you're fighting a GC/MC, though.

 Darth_Mox wrote:
Quick question, if I have a squad of 5 Lychguard in a Nightscythe, I can assign an Overlord with them and he starts off in the Nightscythe, correct?

Correct. The way Dedicated Transports work is that the unit that purchased it is the only unit that can start inside. ICs can join that unit and start in there with them. However, the Overlord cannot start in it by himself and the Lychguard on foot.

If you have the Fast Attack slot, you could always just bring the Night Scythe there and not have to worry about it, and open it up to other units as well!

 skoffs wrote:
So, wait,
He requested you not play Decurion because he considers it cheese... and then rocks up with the biggest cheese in the game?
Okay, yeah, that's bullgak.

Haha yeah, what the butts? 4+ RP is too overpowering, but a Psychic Deathstar backed up with D Barrage weaponry is just fine?

@Evilbookworm, I think your friend is a bit of a punk. Nobody playing Eldar with D and/or that many psychic support should tell you what is or isn't cheese.

Has anyone had any experience/success with adding in an allied CSM force for Psychic power?

Sorcerer on Bike with upgrades, 5 Nurgle Spawn, and Cultists is around the price of a Canoptek Harvest, and brings similar bonuses. The Spawn/Sorc ball is a Fearless, tough unit (especially when buffed up with Endurance or Invis) and pretty good at killing things, much like a Wraith unit. It also brings 3 Psychic Dice to help in the only phase of the game that we're weak in.

Be'lakor + Cultists does something similar at the same price. Though, he's less of a deathstar - but he has Invis without having to roll for it and can fly around Shrieking things. The major issue with bringing Be'lakor by himself (in my book) is that the only Invis targets are himself and the Cultists, so if he's in the air and doesn't need Invis, you're basically just bringing him to Swoop around and Shriek things (maybe Terrify against certain armies).

I think there's a list to be made here. Cultists are fine objective campers - no one wants to waste bullets on a unit of Cultists going to ground in Ruins. Be'lakor can wreak havoc on lots of armies unless they focus a lot of fire into him. And, of course, if they do, that's less into your Destroyers or Wraiths. The Sorc/Spawn unit, if taken instead, can run around alongside Wraith units and use his Force weapon to threaten things like Wraithknights or Stormsurges, while T6 Spawn just eat bullets.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It was fun to ally in a Black Mace Prince and a Heldrake and some Obliterators.

Now all of those are just meh. Entirely not worth it, and I'd recommend allying with someone else. They're not going us something we really need.

Well, the idea is to find a way to bring get Psykers into Necrons. From AoC (as to not trigger OEO, which I hate), that's CSM or Renegades. And while Renegades are good, their Psykers are pretty poor. At least the ones in CSM are pretty good on their own rights.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why would we need Psyker though? If we want to counter Psyker armies, we could ally in a Culexus or two.

I don't have as much faith in the Culexus as most people. Not only his he CTA, but then you have to bring an entire second CTA detachment to give him a Drop Pod, and all people have to do is walk out of his bubble because he only has a 6" move. He doesn't really bring much to an army that can't take advantage and obliterate a target in one turn.

Besides, do you want to go ahead and create a bunch of One Eye Open bubble where our extremely mobile Wraiths can't go for fear of becoming useless for a whole turn? I know I don't Allies of Convenience are much easier to work with. Not to mention those Warp Charge dice that you get from a Sorcerer or Daemon Prince are usable to deny any Psyker on the table, not just the ones within 12".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why would we need Psyker though? If we want to counter Psyker armies, we could ally in a Culexus or two.

I don't have as much faith in the Culexus as most people. Not only his he CTA, but then you have to bring an entire second CTA detachment to give him a Drop Pod, and all people have to do is walk out of his bubble because he only has a 6" move. He doesn't really bring much to an army that can't take advantage and obliterate a target in one turn.

Besides, do you want to go ahead and create a bunch of One Eye Open bubble where our extremely mobile Wraiths can't go for fear of becoming useless for a whole turn? I know I don't Allies of Convenience are much easier to work with. Not to mention those Warp Charge dice that you get from a Sorcerer or Daemon Prince are usable to deny any Psyker on the table, not just the ones within 12".

CTA is such an overrated problem. I've used Tyranids as an allied force with good success.

Depends on the forces in each detachment. If your Necrons are assaulting and your Flyrants are swooping around, you're unlikely to ever get in that bubble. If your Necrons are shooting and your Tyranids are Assault horde, ditto. It's just when they overlap that it's an issue, like with Drop Pods and Wraiths, which are going to have to go to want to go to the same target.

And yeah, it's only on a 1. But that 1 invalidates a unit for the whole turn. It's not like Dangerous Terrain, where a 1 makes a single model take a save which means it'll likely be fine - it means your Wraith unit loses 12" + of movement for the game, and the Culexus can't chase his target, allowing them to get Psychic Powers the next turn. That's a huuuuge deficit.

Besides, I still don't think the Culexus is even that effective. You get 1 turn out of him. Pretty much everything that he wants to target in today's meta is either on a Bike/Jetbike or a FMC aside from Centstar, and all they have to do is move out of his bubble with their 12" move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EBWOP: Also, CTA isn't even allowed in some formats, so I like to avoid it on principle.

I've honestly been considering this recently, especially as I've been having trouble with my recent more elite lists (Wraiths + Destroyers), since they die pretty easily to power units (Gravstars) and heavy guns (D-weaponry, Wraiths, etc).

Mass Warriors have a neat advantage in that the only thing they really worry about is AoE D or S8+. Both of which is rare (read: Eldar), and even when taken generally not in enough numbers to remove more than 1 unit per tun (after which point they begin to get whittled down.

Not to mention combined with Night Scythes to get them where they need to be, Szeras for 4+ RP bubble, maybe some sort of Assault frontline in either Wraiths or Orikanstar, I think the Silver Horde could be quite effective.

The only issue is lack of Fearless against strong Assault armies. As we all know, LD10 is great. But, you lose combat by a lot to something like Thunderwolf Cav, and then that's down to LD5 and you get swept because I2 is basically nothing to anyone except Tau.

You also lack lots of heavy/special weapons in a list like this. While in theory they will eventually chip away everything from blobs to Wraithknights - in practice, that doesn't really compare to having Heavy Destroyers or Ignores Cover Tomb Blades, which are nearly essential for certain opponents.

I don't know if it's *good*. It's not bad. While you might think walking across a Silver Tide is pretty straightforward, there's a lot of target priority and positioning that goes into it. What to bubble wrap, measuring distances, having backup units to hold objectives in case one gets swept, what units to Transport and which ones to footslog, etc. It's slow, so you have to plan where to go and account for possible losses on the way there. In Maelstrom, they basically have to hold all objectives, because they can't move quickly from one to the other.

I think it could be interesting. I would like to figure out how many Warriors are too many and what units best support them. Obviously a good frontline Assault unit is a good choice, but so could be, perhaps, an allied detachment or Formation. For a force like this, which excels in the midfield, you could consider something with Deep Strike or Outflank/Infiltrate that will help deal with those extreme range/high mobility threats that the Warriors will have issues reaching.

I would have to run it a few times to figure it out. It's kind of like, in theory, a slower version of Battle Company. Mass ObSec, pretty hard to kill off, etc. In practice... well, any army that focuses purely on one unit comes down to how easy it is for the opponent to kill that one unit. Warriors are not the easiest to kill, since they are cheap and Necrons, but they do have weaknesses.

I feel like mixing in some Immortal units isn't bad. Go double CAD, lets you get some S5 shooting and more MSU split that can force the opponent to split their fire. Makes me want to fiddle with some lists...

Partially disagree on #2. Flayers are fine at killing light/medium targets, especially when they start with 10/20 shots to a unit. They're not reliable as anti-tank or anti-MC/GC, but against everything else they're rather fine, especially en masse as discussed above.

#3 is pretty situational. Most ObSec units won't win combat by enough with Warriors to sweep them - after all, Troops are Troops. With the exception of something really dedicated like Khorne Berserkers or Bloodletters, of course, but those are really not that common. Warriors (or Immortals if you go that route) are just as durable or moreso than 90% of Troops out there (especially with a Cryptek buff), and are fine hitting back at WS/S/T 4.

And if you're preventing Warriors from an Objective, they're stopping you too, so I'd take that trade. Of course, for most Objective missions, Warriors can just blob out and bodyblock Markers as well. And if the opponent splits off hit powerful and expensive Assault unit to kill the handful of 13 point units on an objective, I'll call that about even.

Still, it's probably not good. But, I think there's something to taking more than just minimum Troops for Necrons, personally. 4 units of Warriors isn't that expensive and can slow roll pretty hard to back up Wraiths or Lychstar.

The box is a great value, I highly suggest it. I don't think you need more than one or two, though.

The Stalker is fine. Eventually you may want to replace it, but if you're just starting and playing in low point games, don't worry about something being perfect. It's pretty nice for mass amount of foot dudes like you have.

 Massaen wrote:
Hey guys, new to the silver robot death machines but an old hand at 40k.

I am looking to build an 1850 tournament list for use here in Australia.

We have an unusual comp set up down under - the link is here....http://www.communitycomp.org/

I am limited to 14 credits for the list due to the event standard locally. What that basically means is that spamming units is often difficult to do (I can only get 3, maybe 4 night/doom scythes in the list for example) and most of the super builds (Orikan DS, Scarab Farm etc) are al but impossible to play.

At this stage, I am looking at a Decurion using a reclamation legion and likely a royal court in the hopes of building a mini Orikan star using swordguard and a couple of 3+ characters (since multiple 2+ characters get hurt by comp).

I am intrigued by the living tomb and praetorian formations - how do you find those when used? Are monoliths any good? I can think of a few trisky things but with no practical experience I am not sure. What about the Ctan? Better with the mepherit dynasty rules for the formation?

Any help or light you can shed greatly appreciated!

Wow, never looked at Comp before, what a headache.

Orikanstar is pretty good, but yes I agree you need a delivery system. And it sounds like ICs + Veil is a lot of comp points.

The Conclave actually seems not too bad from a comp point perspective, but given that it's still pretty easy for most armies to bring a hard counter to it, so be careful.

It sounds like they just want to comp deathstars pretty hard, so I would definately check out the Praetorians in the Decurion, the MSU is pretty good.