Switch Theme:

Classic Battletech Is Awsome: the Thread!!!!!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in jp
Dakka Veteran





Yeah, I can see how that would work.

I'm assuming your opponents were generally swearing, if only in their heads, and the judges were laughing.
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Not to derail the lively debate, but I finally found another player in my local area, even if he is an Alpha Strike player! There is some interest so here is too hoping we can get a group started.

Anyway, I've managed to dig out my old mechs for the most part:

-Atlas
-Shogun
-Highlander
-Stalker
-Project Phoenix Marauder
-Dragon
-Guillotine
-Quickdraw
-Dervish
-Trenchbucket
-Cicada
-Vulcan
-Urbanmech (BEST MECH)
-Spider
-Flea

A bit assault heavy for a 3000 - 3050 lance, but I intend to add some ore mediums too it, a Crab (from an SLDF cache), a Scorpion (Quads are cool), a Centurion (workhose) and something else. And I need to get an Imp because the urbanmech needs its big brother.

Also, if you want to know why Urbanmechs are so cool? Well, I suggest googling "Urbanmech Nuke".
What? What else did you think the Arrow IV variant was designed for?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Mattlov wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
This is true of one Urbie but how about four or six. Urbies often have to take running or jump penalties, so they need short rage to hit. AC20 short range doesnt cut it unless you are muscling your way forward.
Urbies cannot press an attack like a Hunchback can, they are a rective ambush hunter, and once the opponent cottons on there is an AC20 urbie it will be starved of targets, and possibly isolated and picked off with indirect fire if necessary.

Opponents will not stray within so short a range of an Urbie ambush, especially if you have more than one Urbie. The better range brackets of AC10 make all the difference.

I would rather hit for 10 than miss with 20.


Ther eis a reason I own a BATTALION of Urbies.


Let me guess. OCD?

 Mattlov wrote:

You do not deploy them individually, or in lances. They are company formation units.


Amen to that. Though I cant afford company sized UrbanMech forces.


 Mattlov wrote:

Back in the day, when BV 1 came out, there was a terror: The Turkina B. First 'Mech to top 3000 BV, because it was a beast. It was being brought to every bloody game you could find, because Clan pulse lasers and targeting computers.

Local tournament guy said you could bring 3500 BV in 'Mechs, vehicles, and pilots. No infantry. 7 out of 10 players brought Turkey Bs.

I brought Ferret Light Cargo Transport VTOLS, with a BV of...

ONE. So I have counters (which is fine for hex play) for 3500 VTOLs.

VTOLS can't charge, or make physical attacks. But as a vehicle, I could put 2 in every hex. And every LEVEL of every hex. Can't move through an enemy unit, so it couldn't move unless it wanted to charge, but then it couldn't fire all those pulse lasers.

So the Turkina shoots down a half dozen every turn, meanwhile, I just have a handful in a hex above him turn off their engines and crash land on it. Couple points of damage, punch location table.

I encouraged players not to do the cheesy thing, but to play a FORCE. I won the tournament.


Frankly I would have considered that pedantry. Those Ferrets would have to be drones, you are asking for a lot of suicidal pilots.

I have fielded a Karnov packed with RL-10's before, piloted by a Wobbie fanatic. To make that make sense I gave him appalling gunnery and piloting skill.

It didnt work out well, I flew the Karnov to close range of the back of a still clan assault mech, then whiffed most of my rolls. I did a little more damage ramming the next turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/14 18:33:48


n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Mechforce UK dealt with this in tournaments by just publishing a list of mechs, you were only allowed to take one mech from the list as part of your unit. I can't recall all the offenders on there but IIRC if a mech carried Clan Large Pulse Lasers and a Targetting Computer, it was probably on the list.

I'd agree that this does seem a somewhat excessive response especially as there are mechs out there that would have given it a good run for its money (The Mechforce UK Thor-E springs to mind), I'd have entirely forgiven your opponent if they insisted on making sure you had all 3,500 record sheets although I'm guessing from what you've described you were probably just going with "If it's hit, it's dead, so why bother?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Not to derail the lively debate, but I finally found another player in my local area, even if he is an Alpha Strike player! There is some interest so here is too hoping we can get a group started.

Anyway, I've managed to dig out my old mechs for the most part:

...
-Shogun
...

-snip-

And I need to get an Imp because the urbanmech needs its big brother.


That gives you two Wolf's Dragoons exclusives in one force, not a criticism just an observation. Thematically the core of such a unit could be ex-Dragoons if they're not an actual Wolf's Dragoons force otherwise it'd be a little tougher to justify having two pretty rare mechs together in one force like that, of course if you're not too bothered about playing to the fluff there's no reason not to just pick what you like. Either way's good really.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/14 20:18:19


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 simonr1978 wrote:


I'd agree that this does seem a somewhat excessive response especially as there are mechs out there that would have given it a good run for its money (The Mechforce UK Thor-E springs to mind), I'd have entirely forgiven your opponent if they insisted on making sure you had all 3,500 record sheets although I'm guessing from what you've described you were probably just going with "If it's hit, it's dead, so why bother?"


It is nice to teach a lesson to minimaxers who only take ultra optimised mechs, but if someone took a fair lance to battle it would be an unfair burden on them.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I guess this comes down to a difference between a tournament setting or not. In a tournament I'd see nothing wrong in taking the most effective mechs that I'd be allowed to bring. Mechforce UK dealt with it effectively IMO with the A List, unfortunately it goes some way to indicate the state of tournament play in the UK at the time that they also had to ban plastic wallets and water soluble pens and only allowed tournament issued dice to prevent outright cheating too. However, in a tournament you're usually also playing strictly by the rules and that means I personally would want to see record sheets, if nothing else on the basis of "If you're being a dick in response to me being a bit of a dick, then I'll return the favour once more." Maybe you'd actually have them, but even then there's a good chance that slowing the game while I made sure you went through your folder and accurately recorded the damage to Ferret 2,753 and 2,754 rather than any other random VTOL might give me a Draw on what was, let's face it, probably already going to be a very tedious game to begin with.

I guess whilst I can acknowledge the strategy, I just don't think as a protest to opponent's Min-maxing that Max-Minning is really much better**.

In a friendlier setting or as part of a campaign, I'm far more relaxed about it and have fielded some objectively terrible mechs either because it was part of a scenario, it was just what my unit had available at the time, just because I'd seen the record sheet and wanted to give it a try, I'd made a homebrew custom-mech or because I drew that particular mech randomly out of the hat.

If it was a friendly setting and someone was maxing out with full Lances or Stars of A List mechs all the time, it's a bit of a different matter IMO since the expectations are different.

I am not sure. If you are running a single Urbie in an open lance I might actually shoot the Urbie first. it hasn't much armour and cannot generate movement penalties as a target, only for itself. It can still carry a nasty gun. Sure other things are much nastier but you can get the Urbie over and done with quickly while keeping your own speed up.


Then to a degree the Urbanmech will have still done its job because all the while you're shooting at it, and it should survive a few turns assuming they're not locally overly outnumbered, you're not shooting at the other mech(s) and they should be shooting at you. A Panther or Wolfhound will probably do the same job better, but I'm also assuming that for one reason or another I don't have either available, which is why the Urbanmech is here..

Sounds like you never shook the shock away. That was a lucky hit.


That was a lucky hit admittedly, but over the years I've lost far too many very good mechwarriors to fluke head shots (Not just with regard to the AC-20 admittedly, Battletech gets much more deadly for mech pilots once you're playing 3050 Clan invasion onwards, in 3025 though it's surprisingly difficult to kill a mechwarrior. I'll accept a degree of perception bias there, my Veteran and Elite Mechwarriors are far more likely to deployed to a unit on anti-Clan raids so they're comparatively more likely to be killed). With that in mind, even though I usually favour a quite aggressive play-style I'll still generally give the AC-20 a wide berth and treat it with a degree of caution and respect that I don't reserve for the AC-10 or PPC. I can't normally avoid a Gauss Rifle or Clan ER-PPC so those get accepted as occupational hazards, even though a head-hit from one of those is no less fatal, unless you've got COWL and it's from the rear.

Have you tried adding the SRM array onto a Demolisher chassis, its fits by the way, being very similar in volume and tonnage. Demolisher SRM is a nasty variant and makes sense


No, but in my head canon, my unit withdrew the standard AC-20 Demolisher from combat duties until I had the spare funds to upgrade them to Gauss-Demolishers. I lost too many crews to ammo explosions and like I said, I favour crew survivability. I can easily buy another tank, but replacing a Veteran or Elite tank crew is more difficult. Keeping in head-canon mode, I'd expect SRM Demolishers to be similarly vulnerable to their ammo cooking off so my unit commander would probably prefer to avoid them.

As I think you realise the double AC2 Urbie is a fluff consideration only, for head-canon or RPG.


Of course, and to be fair it sounds interesting. It represents one of the few issues I have with Battletech though that there are just some blindingly obviously bad choices when it comes to armament*. The AC-2 Urbanmech sounds like it would make a great harassment mech for a campaign, you pop up, fire off a few rounds then disappear and your opponent has to either make the choice of halting to make repairs or risk going into their next scrap already damaged. Practically though, it should be quite quickly run to ground since there's hardly any unit that can't outrun it.

* I've mentioned this at least once before but it's almost always a bad design choice to pick an AC-5 over a PPC, an AC-2 over an LRM-5, an MG or -worse- a Flamer over a Small Laser, but all of those can have some in game justification compared to the stupidity that is One-Shot missile launchers...

** One more edit, I promise! I'm sure this was just a local rule, but in my old gaming group we only used to count kills if they were of an equal or higher type. So a Battlemech pilot could only count other Mechs as kills for pilot advancement, but a Vehicle crew could count other Vehicles and Mechs. I think it was a houserule invoked after one guy Savannah Master swarmed a mech with about 2 dozen of them, crippling it by amputating both legs but making the pilot an instant Elite becuase he "Killed" the Savannah Masters. Was this any kind of official rule or (As I suspect) a combination of bad luck and a degree of snobbery on our part?

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2018/05/14 22:57:43


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 simonr1978 wrote:


As I think you realise the double AC2 Urbie is a fluff consideration only, for head-canon or RPG.


Of course, and to be fair it sounds interesting. It represents one of the few issues I have with Battletech though that there are just some blindingly obviously bad choices when it comes to armament*. The AC-2 Urbanmech sounds like it would make a great harassment mech for a campaign, you pop up, fire off a few rounds then disappear and your opponent has to either make the choice of halting to make repairs or risk going into their next scrap already damaged. Practically though, it should be quite quickly run to ground since there's hardly an of unit that can't outrun it.


The idea of the Ac2 Urbie is that it is a re-deployable AAA turret to keep flies (helicopters) off your food (ammo dump).

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord






And what you guys are discussing is a major reason I never got properly stuck into Battletech. Even when I was young it was too easy to pick out the "best" mechs for casual games, etc. Same issue you see with a ton of wargames though, as they ignore the realities of why armies would be limited to certain materiel.

-You have a plant in this system and all they make is the relatively crappy X.
-Your army/government isn't rich enough to afford Y.
-You captured an enemy planet which had a stash of Z, and you've been assigned it.
-A previous succession war or trade war left your army in shambles and you have only old, outdated and crappy mechs.
-You're actually playing a rear echelon secuirty company on a backwater planet.
-You're piloting mechs designed by your House and they suck at designing mechs, etc.

Now I know later Battletech books had all kinds of rules and tables and charts to institute this kind of stuff, but it was so rare to run into someone who had an interest in a prolonged campaign, and all I ever saw was "how many tons do you want to play?", etc. It's one of the key features of the newest video game which I enjoy, not having unlimited chassis/mechs to choose from - putting together scraps to create mechs, etc.

I just wish that the core of Battletech had been more aimed at the 'make due with what you have' kind of approach vs. simply choosing the best things in the book (and even worse when "create your own mechs" started to take full effect...ugh.

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Orlanth wrote:
 simonr1978 wrote:


As I think you realise the double AC2 Urbie is a fluff consideration only, for head-canon or RPG.


Of course, and to be fair it sounds interesting. It represents one of the few issues I have with Battletech though that there are just some blindingly obviously bad choices when it comes to armament*. The AC-2 Urbanmech sounds like it would make a great harassment mech for a campaign, you pop up, fire off a few rounds then disappear and your opponent has to either make the choice of halting to make repairs or risk going into their next scrap already damaged. Practically though, it should be quite quickly run to ground since there's hardly an of unit that can't outrun it.


The idea of the Ac2 Urbie is that it is a re-deployable AAA turret to keep flies (helicopters) off your food (ammo dump).


Which is fine, except a twin-LRM-5 Urbie will do the same job and usually better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Elbows wrote:
And what you guys are discussing is a major reason I never got properly stuck into Battletech. Even when I was young it was too easy to pick out the "best" mechs for casual games, etc. Same issue you see with a ton of wargames though, as they ignore the realities of why armies would be limited to certain materiel.

-You have a plant in this system and all they make is the relatively crappy X.
-Your army/government isn't rich enough to afford Y.
-You captured an enemy planet which had a stash of Z, and you've been assigned it.
-A previous succession war or trade war left your army in shambles and you have only old, outdated and crappy mechs.
-You're actually playing a rear echelon secuirty company on a backwater planet.
-You're piloting mechs designed by your House and they suck at designing mechs, etc.

Now I know later Battletech books had all kinds of rules and tables and charts to institute this kind of stuff, but it was so rare to run into someone who had an interest in a prolonged campaign, and all I ever saw was "how many tons do you want to play?", etc. It's one of the key features of the newest video game which I enjoy, not having unlimited chassis/mechs to choose from - putting together scraps to create mechs, etc.

I just wish that the core of Battletech had been more aimed at the 'make due with what you have' kind of approach vs. simply choosing the best things in the book (and even worse when "create your own mechs" started to take full effect...ugh.


That's what random allocation tables were for. Also practically, if you were in a backwater planet drawing security duty, you should have only been facing second-line units or a local uprising, generally. You should be piloting standard mechs, custom designed mechs should be the exception. The fact that they have weaknesses are part of the charm. No-one's ever looked at an ARC-2R and thought "Wow, those two rear facing medium lasers are going to come in really useful!" The various factions in the Battletech Succession wars were always to a fairly large extent balanced. Liao was weakest, but less likely to be targetted, Fed-Com (Post alliance), was strongest, but had two powerful enemies in FWL and DCMS. Clan Invasion upset everything.

Play as Mercs and you do have to make do, trust me - I've been doing so for decades in the real world - If you only use what you salvage that makes things a lot more interesting and "Custom Mech Rules" only count for one-offs. my group mitigated this with the simple rules that a custom sheet had to be signed off by two other members and represented by a custom model, that alone killed a lot of errors and min-maxing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/14 23:12:43


 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

 simonr1978 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Not to derail the lively debate, but I finally found another player in my local area, even if he is an Alpha Strike player! There is some interest so here is too hoping we can get a group started.

Anyway, I've managed to dig out my old mechs for the most part:

...
-Shogun
...

-snip-

And I need to get an Imp because the urbanmech needs its big brother.


That gives you two Wolf's Dragoons exclusives in one force, not a criticism just an observation. Thematically the core of such a unit could be ex-Dragoons if they're not an actual Wolf's Dragoons force otherwise it'd be a little tougher to justify having two pretty rare mechs together in one force like that, of course if you're not too bothered about playing to the fluff there's no reason not to just pick what you like. Either way's good really.

It would not be impossible for a Shogun to have been found or salvaged during the Succession War's by a merc company, or anyone really. I mean, sure, it is a terrible design for a supposedly close quarters mech (I always laugh when I read that bit on Sarna), but given the time period any Battlemech was better than none. Or at least, that is how I have fluffed it in to my company anyway, the Imp will be harder to get away with but I was thinking of having it as salvage, or maybe just one that had been purchased, though I cannot recall if the Dragoons had got a large enough production run of them to sell before the Clan Invasion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whilst I am here, anyone wan the stats for Epic 40K vehicles in BT? I also have the stats for an Imperator if anyone is interested.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/14 23:35:49


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 master of ordinance wrote:

It would not be impossible for a Shogun to have been found or salvaged during the Succession War's by a merc company, or anyone really. I mean, sure, it is a terrible design for a supposedly close quarters mech (I always laugh when I read that bit on Sarna), but given the time period any Battlemech was better than none. Or at least, that is how I have fluffed it in to my company anyway, the Imp will be harder to get away with but I was thinking of having it as salvage, or maybe just one that had been purchased, though I cannot recall if the Dragoons had got a large enough production run of them to sell before the Clan Invasion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whilst I am here, anyone wan the stats for Epic 40K vehicles in BT? I also have the stats for an Imperator if anyone is interested.


Wolf's Dragoons managed about 4 Regiments, bear in mind they didn't appear until 3005 and they were supposed to be elite mechwarrios, for comparison IIRC the Federated Commonwealth managed about 400 Regiments not including Mercenaries according to Phelan Kell under chemical interrogation. Salvaging one Wolf Draqoon exclusive in a Battalion would be pretty special, managing to get ahold of two Dragoons specials in a reinforced company is exceptional. It's not impossible, but it is unlikely.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/15 00:00:22


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 simonr1978 wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
 simonr1978 wrote:


As I think you realise the double AC2 Urbie is a fluff consideration only, for head-canon or RPG.


Of course, and to be fair it sounds interesting. It represents one of the few issues I have with Battletech though that there are just some blindingly obviously bad choices when it comes to armament*. The AC-2 Urbanmech sounds like it would make a great harassment mech for a campaign, you pop up, fire off a few rounds then disappear and your opponent has to either make the choice of halting to make repairs or risk going into their next scrap already damaged. Practically though, it should be quite quickly run to ground since there's hardly an of unit that can't outrun it.


The idea of the Ac2 Urbie is that it is a re-deployable AAA turret to keep flies (helicopters) off your food (ammo dump).


Which is fine, except a twin-LRM-5 Urbie will do the same job and usually better.


But that isnt autocannony goodness.

Finding things better than an AC2 isn't hard or particularly clever.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





No, but that's kind of my point. You've got to create a situation where you have to have an autocannon rather than a PPC or an LRM-5 for the former to be any kind of sensible choice, it's such an easy decision that it doesn't even bear thinking about.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/15 00:54:03


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 simonr1978 wrote:
No, but that's kind of my point. You've got to create a situation where you have to have an autocannon rather than a PPC or an LRM-5 for the former to be any kind of sensible choice, it's such an easy decision that it doesn't even bear thinking about.


Or be using Special Ammo along with the wonders of having proper targets for it.

An AC/2 or AC/5 Urbie with Flak Ammo is a nasty thing for Aerospace pilots to be facing, but that Vedette will be laughing.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Rules assessments I present do not reflect a consideration of any specific group, but only on the written word which we all share. 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






 master of ordinance wrote:

It would not be impossible for a Shogun to have been found or salvaged during the Succession War's by a merc company, or anyone really. I mean, sure, it is a terrible design for a supposedly close quarters mech (I always laugh when I read that bit on Sarna), but given the time period any Battlemech was better than none. Or at least, that is how I have fluffed it in to my company anyway, the Imp will be harder to get away with but I was thinking of having it as salvage, or maybe just one that had been purchased, though I cannot recall if the Dragoons had got a large enough production run of them to sell before the Clan Invasion.


Fluff reasons, that would be as close to impossible as Battletech does. The Shogun DIDN'T EXIST in the Inner Sphere until the Dragoons showed up with a double handful of them in 3005. There are canon references of there only being 9 Shoguns in the Inner Sphere, EVER. The last surviving one was salvaged by a butt-hurt Word of Blake Commander in 3068, I think.

So if you got a Shogun, you're a Wolf's Dragoon. No one else would even have parts for it.

But Rule 1 of Battletech is "If it works for your game, do it." Make up a ridiculous story of why you have one. It's allowed to work. Look at the freaking Black Thorns. If that's not a prime example of "that's not how that's supposed to be" then I don't know what is.

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Charistoph wrote:


Or be using Special Ammo along with the wonders of having proper targets for it.

An AC/2 or AC/5 Urbie with Flak Ammo is a nasty thing for Aerospace pilots to be facing, but that Vedette will be laughing.


Even then though, against a VTOL an AC-2 with Flak ammo is usually at best going to make a very difficult to impossible shot merely a difficult one (Even assuming that you're using the standard rather than the expanded movement charts where 15-20 Flank movement really makes a difference) and even an AC-5 hit against all but the lightest VTOLs is unlikely to bring one down before it can turn tail or use its high movement to close and get a few shots off. True you might still drive off an attacker, but that's at a big cost to your surface-surface fire which will go from poor already to essentially ineffective. Against conventional fighters a Flak AC-5 is a more bit of a threat, but it would need pretty a concentrated barrage to bring down even a Mechbuster and most Aerospace fighters will shrug that off easily at least long enough to drop any bombs they're carrying. In most cases a Flak-2 is going to do little more than scratch the paint except in mass fire against a single target, and then I'd suggest that you'll be at a significant disadvantage on the ground if you're opponent spends roughly equal tonnage on more conventional light mechs.

That said, this is an idea I might steal for my mercenary unit as a 3rd Line AAA unit which supplemented by a handful of Riflemen could free up an artillery battery or two for front line duty and might be a better use of any salvaged Urbanmechs instead of allocating them to the Training Battalion which is where they usually end up. However I'd never want them to actually see an enemy mech or tank, they'd be strictly a "Last line of Defence" type unit.

 Mattlov wrote:
Look at the freaking Black Thorns. If that's not a prime example of "that's not how that's supposed to be" then I don't know what is.


About the only moment I can think of that broke my suspension of disbelief more than Rose taking out a Masakari in a Charger was Adam Steiner's Axman taking twin AC-20 Ultras to the back in the cartoon series. I can accept a certain degree of narrative interpretation in the stories to allow key characters to survive and make sure key victories happen, I'm even willing to give Kai Allard-Liao a double pass for his somewhat questionable exploits, but there are some moments that stretch things just a bit too far even for me.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/16 20:33:38


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

 simonr1978 wrote:


 Mattlov wrote:
Look at the freaking Black Thorns. If that's not a prime example of "that's not how that's supposed to be" then I don't know what is.


About the only moment I can think of that broke my suspension of disbelief more than Rose taking out a Masakari in a Charger was Adam Steiner's Axman taking twin AC-20 Ultras to the back in the cartoon series. I can accept a certain degree of narrative interpretation in the stories to allow key characters to survive and make sure key victories happen, I'm even willing to give Kai Allard-Liao a double pass for his somewhat questionable exploits, but there are some moments that stretch things just a bit too far even for me.



Joanna and the jump jet attack against Natasha Kerensky. That was my moment. All these years later I still shake my head at that. Kill an iconic character in a universe appropriate way (in this case, actual combat as portrayed in the game) not in a cinematic, hand-wavy manner like firing jump jets at a cockpit. I know they later added a game rule for that type of attack, but still. It was after-the-fact and still a stupid way to kill off such a neat character. Jamie Wolf at least got a proper send off when he died on Outreach.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I wasn't a fan of the Falcon Guard story line to begin with. The bit with Jorge/Aidan singing to himself during his Trial of Refusal was just cringingly awful, but was really only a low point of a low point as far as the novel series go (Not counting one-offs) and that's coming from someone who regards the GDL books as genuinely quite horribly cliched and predictable, that said I came to Falcon Guard fairly late in my reading of the novels, if I'd read them in order of release I might have had an even lower opinion. I say that also as someone who's a dedicated Jade Falcon player when I play Clan too, I'm genuinely ashamed by some of the background material that goes with that faction.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/16 21:42:34


 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Temple Guard






 simonr1978 wrote:
I wasn't a fan of the Falcon Guard story line to begin with. The bit with Jorge/Aidan singing to himself during his Trial of Refusal was just cringingly awful, but was really only a low point of a low point as far as the novel series go (Not counting one-offs) and that's coming from someone who regards the GDL books as genuinely quite horribly cliched and predictable, that said I came to Falcon Guard fairly late in my reading of the novels, if I'd read them in order of release I might have had an even lower opinion. I say that also as someone who's a dedicated Jade Falcon player when I play Clan too, I'm genuinely ashamed by some of the background material that goes with that faction.


Every Robert Thurston novel could be removed from canon and the universe would not be diminished...

27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

 Mattlov wrote:
Every Robert Thurston novel could be removed from canon and the universe would not be diminished...



Robert Thurston BattleTech novels:
  • Way of the Clans (1991)

  • Bloodname (1991)

  • Falcon Guard (1991)

  • I Am Jade Falcon (1995)

  • Freebirth (1998)

  • Falcon Rising (1999)


  • Yep. Totally agree.
       
    Made in gb
    Regular Dakkanaut





     Mattlov wrote:


    Every Robert Thurston novel could be removed from canon and the universe would not be diminished...


    Sadly, I also agree, at least based on the first three. I'm not particularly inclined to read the others since I'm assuming they're probably more of the same.

    Talking of bad Battletech, I picked up a copy of Star Lord from a charity shop the other day. Definitely one of the weaker novels, but worth £1 for the chance to re-read it.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 09:48:04


     
       
    Made in gb
    Highlord of Terra






    Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

     simonr1978 wrote:
    No, but that's kind of my point. You've got to create a situation where you have to have an autocannon rather than a PPC or an LRM-5 for the former to be any kind of sensible choice, it's such an easy decision that it doesn't even bear thinking about.


    It always is, apart from the AC20 and later the RAC5.

    Energy is better, no ammo explosions, to make matters worse energy is cooler as if you match tonnage in comparable energy weapon plus heat sinks vs an autocannon you get less heat overall.
    Autocannon exist in their own fluff bubble, always have.

    I can't think of a situation where you would not want to swap an AC2 or AC5 for LRMs. And a PPC is superior to an AC10, and a large laser is an efficient less problematic alternative to the AC10 also.

    You take autocannon to feel the kick of the gun, its a fluff perspective weapon, again with caveat to AC20 and RAC5.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Mattlov wrote:
     simonr1978 wrote:
    I wasn't a fan of the Falcon Guard story line to begin with. The bit with Jorge/Aidan singing to himself during his Trial of Refusal was just cringingly awful, but was really only a low point of a low point as far as the novel series go (Not counting one-offs) and that's coming from someone who regards the GDL books as genuinely quite horribly cliched and predictable, that said I came to Falcon Guard fairly late in my reading of the novels, if I'd read them in order of release I might have had an even lower opinion. I say that also as someone who's a dedicated Jade Falcon player when I play Clan too, I'm genuinely ashamed by some of the background material that goes with that faction.


    Every Robert Thurston novel could be removed from canon and the universe would not be diminished...


    I disagree. I much prefer him to Stackpole.

    Stackpole has his strengths he is at his best when describing technology, but that is all he has got. His plot lines are unintelligent in the worst way, that is to say he writes 'clever' characters that in order to make his purported cleverness to work he makes their foil blindingly incompetent, stages everything through a mass of background stars-are-right fiat, and then provides a double helping of annoying smugness when his protagonist moves in for the takedown, normally with a one liner showing how awesome he is at r0xx0r.

    Now fiat is inherent in fantasy literature, but Thurstons protagonists tends to have visible flaws, tended to fail as often as they succeeded or had a strong underdog or a tragic hero theme. Where Aidan Pryde does pull off one-man-army stunts he does so according to the rules of heroic literature. Notably that great victory against the odds must have a price. A lot is forgiven with regards to fiat when the protagonist takes down his enemy with him.

    Stackpole wouldn't know how to have a Thermopyle-esque stand, his protagonist would destroy the enemy army, have a crushing moral victory also and emerge later without a scratch. Though he might appear dead for a while.

    I find Thurstons protagonists endearing, and they are the principle reason I chose CJF as my faction, I even took a liking to the GDL though they were halfway to Stackpole. I do not know of a Stackpole major protagonist who I do not find deeply annoying. Leaping from pinnacle of victory to pinnacle of victory upon the backs of commonly competent opponents who suddenly ate a boatload of stupid pills, again and again so the big hero can get to the top and bask in perpetual smugness.

    And no this is not because Falcons bear the brunt of this, they do OK.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/17 15:25:36


    n'oublie jamais

    It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
     
       
    Made in gb
    Regular Dakkanaut





    To each his own but I disagree on Stackpole. I definitely find his characters to be better rounded than Thurston's Falcons or Keith's Grey Death Legion. It's been a while since I read the Jade Falcon books but I seem to recall that Pryde's Trial of Refusal is an almost comical walkover and whilst it's true that he was put in that position because he was over confident in his first Trial of Position and to have him singing a Battletech nursery rhyme whilst he was doing it was just bad writing IMO.

    YMMV but I'd take Stackpole's books over Thurston's any day. Not pretending Stackpole's perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but for the most part I can read an engagement in a Stackpole book and imagine it playing out on the tabletop to the point that they almost read like narrative battle reports, there are exceptions but I'm generally willing to let them pass as occasions when he needed a particular character to survive so wrote them out of certain destruction.

    I'd also disagree that Stackpole's characters don't have visible flaws, IMO there are very few characters that are completely good or completely evil, the majority being somewhere inbetween, by comparison going from memory Thurston's were fairly indistinguishable in that they all came over as overconfident to the point of arrogance and that was about it. Keith's GDL books IIRC are if anything even more one dimensional in that they're always indisputably the good guys, they're inevitably betrayed or framed and always eventually win out against seemingly insurmountable odds, with any character flaws being pretty few and far between with Legionnaires almost invariably and I found quite blandly being brave, honourable and noble regardless of situation or circumstance. The books are predictable to the point that within about the first one or two dozen pages I could generally tell pretty accurately how the rest of the plot was going to pan out.

    Stackpole wouldn't know how to have a Thermopyle-esque stand, his protagonist would destroy the enemy army, have a crushing moral victory also and emerge later without a scratch. Though he might appear dead for a while.


    That IMO is the final scenes of pretty much all of Keith's Grey Death Legion books that I've read in a nutshell. They'd end up hopelessly outnumbered but would win out, clear their name/defeat the evil conspiracy and emerge ultimately stronger than ever, all in time to do it again for the next book.

    IIRC we've disagreed on this before though.
       
    Made in gb
    Bloodthirsty Vampire Thrall






    UK

    Loved Grey Death novels when they came out - I was quite upset when i read the last book with Lori in.

    Still have them and leant them to friends playing MWo along with the Warrior trilogy which i am also a big fan off.

    Victor Milan's novels I also enjoyed immensley


    "Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
    Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

    "I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

    www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

    A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
       
    Made in us
    Stubborn Temple Guard






     Mr Morden wrote:
    Loved Grey Death novels when they came out - I was quite upset when i read the last book with Lori in.

    Still have them and leant them to friends playing MWo along with the Warrior trilogy which i am also a big fan off.

    Victor Milan's novels I also enjoyed immensley



    Victor Milan wrote the most fun Battletech novels. The Caballeros were an interesting unit, and even if some side character only got one line, there was a personality infused into it. I also liked how he was not afraid to kill off people.

    He was probably my favorite author. RIP, Victor...

    27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
    Resident Battletech Guru. 
       
    Made in gb
    Combat Jumping Tiger Soldier




    North Wales

    Close Quarters is my favourite BT novel, full stop.

    I didn't like the next two books nearly as much, but I think that I really need to get round to painting up Camacho's Cabelleros for my IS mechs. There are so many memorable scenes in the books and you've got to love Cowboy (who is totally played by Owen Wilson in my brain-movie).

    My Clan mechs? Jade Falcon.

    I really liked Thurston's novels - of course all the characters are arrogant and overconfident, they're Jade Falcon!
       
    Made in gb
    Regular Dakkanaut





    Agreed that Victor Milan's books were very good, I'd add Pardoe's novels on the Northwind Highlanders to the list of Good Battletech fiction too.

     Chillreaper wrote:

    I really liked Thurston's novels - of course all the characters are arrogant and overconfident, they're Jade Falcon!


    Yeah, but you can give them other characteristics too, they don't have to be almost interchangable.
       
    Made in gb
    Combat Jumping Tiger Soldier




    North Wales

     simonr1978 wrote:
    Agreed that Victor Milan's books were very good, I'd add Pardoe's novels on the Northwind Highlanders to the list of Good Battletech fiction too.

     Chillreaper wrote:

    I really liked Thurston's novels - of course all the characters are arrogant and overconfident, they're Jade Falcon!


    Yeah, but you can give them other characteristics too, they don't have to be almost interchangable.



    Hey, they have other characteristics as well as arrogant and overconfident. Just add one extra personality trait to the two existing Jade Falcon ones!

    Joanna - angry.
    Horse - sarcastic.
    Aiden - obsessed.
    Diana - insecure.
    Ravill - tool.
    Kael Pershaw - devious tool.

    After that, ok, they're generic Jade Falcon A-holes...
       
    Made in gb
    Highlord of Terra






    Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

     simonr1978 wrote:
     Charistoph wrote:


    Or be using Special Ammo along with the wonders of having proper targets for it.

    An AC/2 or AC/5 Urbie with Flak Ammo is a nasty thing for Aerospace pilots to be facing, but that Vedette will be laughing.


    Even then though, against a VTOL an AC-2 with Flak ammo is usually at best going to make a very difficult to impossible shot merely a difficult one (Even assuming that you're using the standard rather than the expanded movement charts where 15-20 Flank movement really makes a difference) and even an AC-5 hit against all but the lightest VTOLs is unlikely to bring one down before it can turn tail or use its high movement to close and get a few shots off. True you might still drive off an attacker, but that's at a big cost to your surface-surface fire which will go from poor already to essentially ineffective. Against conventional fighters a Flak AC-5 is a more bit of a threat, but it would need pretty a concentrated barrage to bring down even a Mechbuster and most Aerospace fighters will shrug that off easily at least long enough to drop any bombs they're carrying. In most cases a Flak-2 is going to do little more than scratch the paint except in mass fire against a single target, and then I'd suggest that you'll be at a significant disadvantage on the ground if you're opponent spends roughly equal tonnage on more conventional light mechs.

    That said, this is an idea I might steal for my mercenary unit as a 3rd Line AAA unit which supplemented by a handful of Riflemen could free up an artillery battery or two for front line duty and might be a better use of any salvaged Urbanmechs instead of allocating them to the Training Battalion which is where they usually end up. However I'd never want them to actually see an enemy mech or tank, they'd be strictly a "Last line of Defence" type unit.


    An Urbanech configured for AAA needs an AA tracker which swaps in bonuses to hit air in return for penalties to hit ground targets, IIRC +/-2. As a pair of AC2's is useless against ground target anyway, this is not problem. With your Urbie turret stationary guarding a depot the chances of damaging a fast moving VTOL is pretty good.

    n'oublie jamais

    It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
     
       
    Made in jp
    Dakka Veteran





    So, I have a question that's a bit off topic from what's currently meandering through this thread.

    I just bought the German starter box (didn't realize it was german when I did). But I already have the rules, so it was mostly for the miniatures.

    What comes with it, and what quality? I can't find out from my searches online.

    I bought it thinking it was the higher quality starter, and only figured out my mistake afterwards.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/19 00:10:25


     
       
     
    Forum Index » Misc. Sci-Fi Miniature Games
    Go to: