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Alpharius Walks wrote:
The 3025 reissue has the AC-20 Urbanmech. I always aprreciated the eclectic mix of designs in the canon TROs.

Apart from dropping the "Notable Pilots" section, the re-issue entry is identical to the original.

 simonr1978 wrote:
True, although I can't think of any other 20 tonners at the moment, it's not usually until you hit the top end of the Light Class with mechs like the PNT-9R Panther or WLF-1 Wolfhound that heat management is really something you even need to be aware of. Most (although admittedly not all) 20-30 ton mechs don't need to worry about heat until they start taking damage and once you hit 3050 tech some can even shrug off a couple of engine hits if they've been upgraded with Double Heat Sinks.

I remember the Wasp and the Stingr running hot, particularly some variants, but IIRC only when jumping. Otherwise, yeah, it's hard for a 20 tonner to pack much of anything so heat is not usually a problem.

Of the standard variants the STG-3R would only generate a maximum of 9 heat and the WSP-1A would manage 11, at that rate even the Wasp would take quite some time Jumping and firing constantly before it generated a heat level that was a significant problem. The thing is at 20-25 tonners and 3025 Tech there just generally isn't the spare tonnage there really to load it up with enough weapons or use the really heat-inefficient ones like the PPC that are going to put it into Heat unless you deliberately design it to do so. Having said that the WSP-1D could generate up to 4 excess heat per turn, but that's mounting the only weapon more pointless than the Machinegun, the Flamer (Not counting One Shot Missile launchers because they were just lobotomy level stupid), and it's the only one I can think of that will generate significant surplus heat. And even then, after three turns at Flamer range, Heat probably isn't going to be the Wasp's only problem (Assuming it's still got the weapons left at that stage to generate heat).

Admittedly I could take an LCT-1V Locust, strip out its weapons, shave a tonne of armour, drop the engine rating and load it up with 5 flamers, but at that stage I'm trying to design a bad mech and even the Firestarter wasn't that bad. I'd designate it the LCT-1F. I might have to actually make that record sheet now, just for fun... Or I could go 3050 load up an ER-PPC and decide to stick with single heat sinks, again though,at that stage I'm trying to design a mech that will over-heat.

I used to have fun playing around with the construction rules, one of my creations was a 15 tonne Mech (Yeah, I know the rules say the lowest you can go is 20, I just wanted to see what it would be like, this was also pre-Protomech rules so it was a kind of proto-Proto-mech, I named it the Microlight). It's optional extras included armour or a small laser, and no, you couldn't have both. Mine nearly killed a Battlemaster (Admittedly through a lucky double-one which double critical'd the engine), until a few turns later when the Battlemaster actually shot it and nearly killed it outright with a single medium laser hit.

It's not really until you get up to the likes of the CRD-3R Crusader that you get a mech that can shut itself down in one turn or blow itself up in two.

(I played 3025 Battletech so often in the 1990s that a lot of this information is pretty much embedded in my brain).

Whenever Urbanmechs are mentioned I am reminded of this. They may not be impressive but any mech can land that killing blow.

That did not make my day.

It made my week.

 simonr1978 wrote:
Of the standard variants the STG-3R would only generate a maximum of 9 heat and the WSP-1A would manage 11, at that rate even the Wasp would take quite some time Jumping and firing constantly before it generated a heat level that was a significant problem. The thing is at 20-25 tonners and 3025 Tech there just generally isn't the spare tonnage there really to load it up with enough weapons or use the really heat-inefficient ones like the PPC that are going to put it into Heat unless you deliberately design it to do so. Having said that the WSP-1D could generate 4 excess heat per turn, but that's mounting the only weapon more pointless than the Machinegun, the Flamer, and it's the only one I can think of that will generate significant surplus heat. And even then, after three turns at Flamer range, Heat probably isn't going to be the Wasp's only problem (Assuming it's still got the weapons left at that stage to generate heat).

Hm, let me see...

The Stinger 3R couldn't really heat up, but the 3G had 2MLs, so going full out it gained 12 Heat per turn. The Wasp, OTOH, had a lot more variants, and some of them could generate a fair amount of heat for a 20 tonner: The 1K could never gain Heat until damaged, but even the 1A could generate 11 per turn, and the Wolf's Dragoons' 1W had 6 (!) small lasers...

 paulson games wrote:
Whenever Urbanmechs are mentioned I am reminded of this. They may not be impressive but any mech can land that killing blow.

6 Small Lasers are 6 Heat, that and jumping 6 still only gives you 2 surplus Heat, same as the STG-3G. Either of them have got at least 6 turns before Heat is a danger (if ever) or a bare minimum of 3 turns if you're playing it safe and they can still (hopefully) jump into cover, spend a turn or two cooling down and jump back into the fight again, remember Heat affects Walk and by extension Run but not Jump. If you've put your Wasp in a position where jumping into cover of some sort is not an option, you're probably using it wrong.

AFAIK the WSP-1D is pretty much the worst of the bunch in terms of 3025 light-lights and even then 4 heat at maximum effort is not that terrible, drop the Flamer (Which you probably will have to anyway) or run rather than jump and it becomes 1 excess heat at worse.

The WSP-1A only generates 1 extra Heat per turn, since it sinks 10 of them straight away, at that rate it's got quite a few turns before the pilot even breaks a sweat. What makes the Wasp an easy choice over the Stinger is that it carrying an SRM rather than a pair of MGs meant it can attack at full effect without having to get right up close to do so.

 simonr1978 wrote:
6 Small Lasers are 6 Heat, that and jumping 6 still only gives you 2 surplus Heat, same as the STG-3G. Either of them have got at least 6 turns before Heat is a danger (if ever) and they can still (hopefully) jump into cover, spend a turn or two cooling down and jump back into the fight again, remember Heat affects Walk and by extension Run but not Jump. If you've put your Wasp in a position where jumping into cover is not an option, you're using it wrong.

AFAIK the WSP-1D is pretty much the worst of the bunch in terms of 3025 light-lights and even then 4 heat at maximum effort is not that terrible, drop the Flamer (Which you probably will have to anyway) or run rather than jump and it becomes 1 excess heat at worse.

The WSP-1A only generates 1 extra Heat per turn, since it sinks 10 of them straight away, at that rate it's got quite a few turns before the pilot even breaks a sweat. What makes the Wasp an easy choice over the Stinger is that it carrying an SRM rather than a pair of MGs meant it can attack at full effect without having to get right up close to do so.

Yep, in all cases the big "problem" was the jump jets, whch in my experience are used, like, all the damn time ^^. The Spider had it much worse in that regard, being bigger and jumping 8 hexes. The most heavily armed 20 tonner I remember was the Flea FLE-4, which carried a LL, a Flamer and a SL, and it was actually a pretty spiffy sniper (that could do that forever while running).

Now that I remember, two things I'm kinda digging on the new Battletech computer game are Stability damage and weapon hardpoints. Stability Damage because they make some kinds of weapons much more useable compared with just loading up as many energy weapons as you can, and weapon hardpints because I kinda like theidea of having certain limits for the things you can mod on a specific 'mech.

The Spider's a 30 tonner though, a whole 50% heavier than the Locust, Stinger or Wasp, outside of the 20-25 tonne range I mentioned and jumping 8 means it's significantly more likely to be able to find safety behind a level 2 hill or deep into some woods to cool off when it gets hot. Even then, 4 surplus Heat is basically Jump-Shoot, Jump-Don't Shoot, Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Or regard your armament as 1 Medium Laser with a second as back-up, then you can Jump 7 and fire ad infinitum without ever going into the Heat scale unless you get damaged. Jumping 7-8 hexes means you don't even need to bother too much with cover since in 3025 you'll be very difficult to hit anyway. You'll be jumping away and even if you're playing on Planer Bowling Ball, you should be at a minimum of 10+ to hit.

Jump jets in Lights should be used like Run in a Locust, if available it's your best defence against enemy gunfire except for LOS blocking terrain so if you're not jumping or running unless they can't see you, you're also doing it wrong.

It's frustrating because unless your opponent has screwed up you have to shoot a lot of weapons at them to hit them, but if you do hit them, generally you'll hurt them a lot more than they'll hurt you.

That's the problem I have with Pulse Lasers though, they upset that balance and allow Heavies and Assaults to shoot at Lights and Mediums at more or less even odds. Once you hit 3050 tech, Lights and fast Mediums become far less viable.

 Orlanth wrote:
I have never seen a mech make a shutdown test in battletech, ever.

The target penalties aquired earlier are so grim there is zero point in adding heat at that point.

I did it once, when I fired every weapon on a Mad Cat Prime at once. Narrowly avoided a reactor failure, shut down for a turn then managed to restart before the other side managed to get to me.

I also remember seeing a set of house rules for Battletch that split the turn into "phases" (like in Dark Future, Car Wars or Star Fleet Battles); 10 phases per turn, I think, mechs move one hex per phase up to their max allowance (so a mech with speed 5 moves in phases 2,4,6,8,10, one with speed 3 moves in 3 6, 9, that sort of thing). Weapons could fire with a "cooldown" period equal to the heat rating; a weapon which fired in phase 3 and generated 4 heat could fire again in phase 7 - generating its full heat each time. This made the Locust with MGs the bane of heavier mechs, as it could get in behind them and fire every second phase with its MGs - those 2 damage points add up soon enough!

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I have never seen a mech make a shutdown test in battletech, ever.

The target penalties aquired earlier are so grim there is zero point in adding heat at that point.

I did it once, when I fired every weapon on a Mad Cat Prime at once. Narrowly avoided a reactor failure, shut down for a turn then managed to restart before the other side managed to get to me.

Off the top of my head, a Madcat P can dissipate 34 Heat, firing every weapon is 2x ERLL, (24), 2x ERML (10), 2x LRM20 (12), 1 MPL (4), assuming you Ran too that's +18 Heat. Can't recall Reactor Failure on the Heat charts, IIRC in addition to speed and shooting penalties there's Shut Down and Ammo Explosion Rolls, you'd definitely be rolling for shut down but even if you failed you'd definitely be fine the next turn.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I also remember seeing a set of house rules for Battletch that split the turn into "phases" (like in Dark Future, Car Wars or Star Fleet Battles); 10 phases per turn, I think, mechs move one hex per phase up to their max allowance (so a mech with speed 5 moves in phases 2,4,6,8,10, one with speed 3 moves in 3 6, 9, that sort of thing). Weapons could fire with a "cooldown" period equal to the heat rating; a weapon which fired in phase 3 and generated 4 heat could fire again in phase 7 - generating its full heat each time. This made the Locust with MGs the bane of heavier mechs, as it could get in behind them and fire every second phase with its MGs - those 2 damage points add up soon enough!

Some of that sounds similar to the Solaris 7 ruleset.

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)

Belay that order! Do put your ammo centre torso if you don't have CASE.

Side torsos with ammo only are just death traps, as any crit will detonate the bins, unless empty . If you hit the centre torso there is a very good chance you will hit something else other than a magazine, and you have the side torsos as protection against through damage. Unless the bins are empty or near empty the resulting damage

One of the nice things about the Blackjack is centre torso ammo stowage, that and four medium lasers to punish anyone laughing at its purportedly primary armament.

Tip: Short load MG Ammo, doesnt require house rules to do this, simply load up only 6-10 belts into the ammo bins. This is normally enough for a battle anyway.

 simonr1978 wrote:

UM-R60L
Generally associated with the Capellan Confederation, who have modified a few of their UrbanMechs in this fashion, the -R60L is an upgrade to make the UrbanMech twice as deadly as the -R60 version. The -R60L sacrifices two tons of armor, allowing it to replace the Imperator-B Autocannon/10 with an Imperator-Zeta Autocannon/20 that is capable of downing most light 'Mechs and severely damaging most medium 'Mechs in a single salvo. Besides the thinner armor this modification comes with a very limited ammunition supply, which made it unpopular.[1][2] BV (1.0) = 443, BV (2.0) = 470[5]

I can't recall a Large Laser variant though. In 3025 there was only the AC-10 or AC-20 versions IIRC. I always favoured the AC-20 version personally because let's face it, if you're using an Urbanmech you're not going to be getting many shots off at the best of times, might as well make it count when you do.

Heretic. You cannot 'fix' the UrbanMech, it is already perfect. Honestly though all the variants are a downgrade, AC20 sounds great but your range is crap and so is your armour. Urbies don't travel alone, they hunt in packs, they are priced comparably to light tanks and can be employed in numbers even by PDFs. In a pack stock Urbies are better as they have the range brackets to gank opponents. I suppose you could have one AC20 Urbie for a surprise, and get that one closest. But by and large it isnt necessary and you wont know which Urbie will be closest anyway as maneuver is not your forte.
really stick with stock Urbies and remember to deploy at least four. As they are PDF forces usually you dont need to organise them to fit dropships, so lances of six are not inappropriate.

Adding recovered technology to an Urbie is an insult to Urbie. What part of 'cheap and nasty' don't these people understand. Upgrading an Urbie take away from its primary asset, pretty much nothing else is cheaper while remaining useful*, even light tanks can cost more in BV or C-Bills. Furthermore Urbies don't care about your fancy technology. It doesnt matter if you are in a rusty Stinger or a Dire Wolf Prime. Hordes of Urbies pop out from behind buildings and open up with a dozen Ac10's and ruin your day. Next turn its an empty street save for the burning wreck of your mech.


* Savannah Masters are a notable exception, and a legend themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 simonr1978 wrote:
That did not make my day.

It made my week.

Not seen that one before?

Now you know what happened to Aidan Pryde's infamous Small Laser of DOOM.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)

Belay that order! Do put your ammo centre torso if you don't have CASE.

Side torsos with ammo only are just death traps, as any crit will detonate the bins, unless empty . If you hit the centre torso there is a very good chance you will hit something else other than a magazine, and you have the side torsos as protection against through damage. Unless the bins are empty or near empty the resulting damage

One of the nice things about the Blackjack is centre torso ammo stowage, that and four medium lasers to punish anyone laughing at its purportedly primary armament.

Tip: Short load MG Ammo, doesnt require house rules to do this, simply load up only 6-10 belts into the ammo bins. This is normally enough for a battle anyway.

CASE is pointless in a game with IS XL Engines too, unless you're guaranteed to win. If you're going to allow players to underload MG bins, then go for it.

 simonr1978 wrote:

UM-R60L
Generally associated with the Capellan Confederation, who have modified a few of their UrbanMechs in this fashion, the -R60L is an upgrade to make the UrbanMech twice as deadly as the -R60 version. The -R60L sacrifices two tons of armor, allowing it to replace the Imperator-B Autocannon/10 with an Imperator-Zeta Autocannon/20 that is capable of downing most light 'Mechs and severely damaging most medium 'Mechs in a single salvo. Besides the thinner armor this modification comes with a very limited ammunition supply, which made it unpopular.[1][2] BV (1.0) = 443, BV (2.0) = 470[5]

I can't recall a Large Laser variant though. In 3025 there was only the AC-10 or AC-20 versions IIRC. I always favoured the AC-20 version personally because let's face it, if you're using an Urbanmech you're not going to be getting many shots off at the best of times, might as well make it count when you do.

Heretic. You cannot 'fix' the UrbanMech, it is already perfect. Honestly though all the variants are a downgrade, AC20 sounds great but your range is crap and so is your armour. Urbies don't travel alone, they hunt in packs, they are priced comparably to light tanks and can be employed in numbers even by PDFs. In a pack stock Urbies are better as they have the range brackets to gank opponents. I suppose you could have one AC20 Urbie for a surprise, and get that one closest. But by and large it isnt necessary and you wont know which Urbie will be closest anyway as maneuver is not your forte.
really stick with stock Urbies and remember to deploy at least four. As they are PDF forces usually you dont need to organise them to fit dropships, so lances of six are not inappropriate.

Adding recovered technology to an Urbie is an insult to Urbie. What part of 'cheap and nasty' don't these people understand. Upgrading an Urbie take away from its primary asset, pretty much nothing else is cheaper while remaining useful*, even light tanks can cost more in BV or C-Bills. Furthermore Urbies don't care about your fancy technology. It doesnt matter if you are in a rusty Stinger or a Dire Wolf Prime. Hordes of Urbies pop out from behind buildings and open up with a dozen Ac10's and ruin your day. Next turn its an empty street save for the burning wreck of your mech.


* Savannah Masters are a notable exception, and a legend themselves.

No. The Urbanmech is pretty much a dedicated one-trick-pony. It works and it works damn well in a CQB environment. If you can hunt in packs and shoot 2 or 3 AC-20s into an enemy Mech's rear then it'll work especially work well. The AC-10 will hurt a Heavy but is unlikely to kill it like an AC-20 can and the AC-10's extra range is largely wasted on a mech that can at best Run 3. I'd never bother giving one an LB-10 though since it can't get in range of an AC-20 it's not doing its job properly. It's an Urbanmech guys, take the hint!

This is true of one Urbie but how about four or six. Urbies often have to take running or jump penalties, so they need short rage to hit. AC20 short range doesnt cut it unless you are muscling your way forward.
Urbies cannot press an attack like a Hunchback can, they are a rective ambush hunter, and once the opponent cottons on there is an AC20 urbie it will be starved of targets, and possibly isolated and picked off with indirect fire if necessary.

Opponents will not stray within so short a range of an Urbie ambush, especially if you have more than one Urbie. The better range brackets of AC10 make all the difference.

I would rather hit for 10 than miss with 20.

Often they don't because if you're engaging at 5+ hexes you're jumping in premature. At 3 Hexes an AC-20 is much better than an AC-10 and in an urban/jungle setting you should be able to manage that, even if it takes a couple of turns of you jumping out with no targets till you can engage a target to your advantage.

A Hunchback's better but it's 20 tonnes heavier and can't jump, everyone else is faster or can jump better, but no-one can hit harder in that tonnage and jump too. For 3
Hunchbacks that'll struggle just to turn around in a town/forest you can get 5 Jumping Urbanmechs.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)

Belay that order! Do put your ammo centre torso if you don't have CASE.

Side torsos with ammo only are just death traps, as any crit will detonate the bins, unless empty . If you hit the centre torso there is a very good chance you will hit something else other than a magazine, and you have the side torsos as protection against through damage. Unless the bins are empty or near empty the resulting damage

One of the nice things about the Blackjack is centre torso ammo stowage, that and four medium lasers to punish anyone laughing at its purportedly primary armament.

Tip: Short load MG Ammo, doesnt require house rules to do this, simply load up only 6-10 belts into the ammo bins. This is normally enough for a battle anyway.

Problem is, you can get a CT critical while the mech still has armor to punch through (or at least, you used to be able to).

At under 3 hexes an UM-R60L will do that just as well as an AC-10 UM-R60, except it's more likely to punch through the armour to begin with (Scoring two critical rolls).

It you score a forward CT Critical, you're most likely to score at worst a couple of engine hits or if you're lucky a couple of Gyro hits. You're unlikely though to kill an enemy mech .

With a mech that's Walk 2 Run 3 Jump 2, you're going to outshoot and outmanouever it in open terrain in practically every situation. In a forest or in a city though, with alternating activation it's a different matter.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)

Belay that order! Do put your ammo centre torso if you don't have CASE.

Side torsos with ammo only are just death traps, as any crit will detonate the bins, unless empty . If you hit the centre torso there is a very good chance you will hit something else other than a magazine, and you have the side torsos as protection against through damage. Unless the bins are empty or near empty the resulting damage

One of the nice things about the Blackjack is centre torso ammo stowage, that and four medium lasers to punish anyone laughing at its purportedly primary armament.

Tip: Short load MG Ammo, doesnt require house rules to do this, simply load up only 6-10 belts into the ammo bins. This is normally enough for a battle anyway.

Problem is, you can get a CT critical while the mech still has armor to punch through (or at least, you used to be able to).

Yes you can with a location roll of snake eyes. However lets look at the odds of that. 1:36 from front or rear. then one two or three location rolls. With several engine and gyro slots, you are likely to hit them. Now adding minor weapons to the center torso can be a good idea to mitigate rerolls, But the chance of hitting the ammo is limited.

If you torso mount you will take an ammo explosion unless it hits a weapon, in many cases a side torso only contains ammo and sometimes more than one ton. This is a death sentence. It is the hidden weakness of some mechs, the Cyclops in particular. t looks mighty but has weak arm armour which means the arm structure burns through quickly leading to hits directly follwng into the ammo bins, and a Cyclops carries four tons of ammo in the side torso.

To make matters worse a snake eyes location roll from the side has the penetrating effect but on the side torso. So there is no mitigation or escape from that lucky floating critical.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 simonr1978 wrote:
At under 3 hexes an UM-R60L will do that just as well as an AC-10 UM-R60, except it's more likely to punch through the armour to begin with (Scoring two critical rolls).

It you score a forward CT Critical, you're most likely to score at worst a couple of engine hits or if you're lucky a couple of Gyro hits. You're unlikely though to kill an enemy mech .

With a mech that's Walk 2 Run 3 Jump 2, you're going to outshoot and outmanouever it in open terrain in practically every situation. In a forest or in a city though, with alternating activation it's a different matter.

With a top speed of 3 as soon as the opponent suspects you use an Ac20 Urbie you wont get within effective range of it. Short range and hobbled movement is a bad combo.

Again all your damage stats are noise, you dont field one Urbie you field several, and gank. Four Urbies is a usual minimum, and together they count as or counter one front line mech.

I remember a game with Urban mechs.

A bunch of us were playing on a larger map, about poster sized. One friend spent her BV on two stock annihilators, while her brother took the same BV in stock urbies.

Outnumbered almost seven to one, by mechs that were tough enough to actually survive a round of fire, she got swarmed by AC 10 wielding jump turrets. I think she managed to kill five of them before her last mech literally got it's legs kicked out from under it. It was a hilarious game of reverse whack-a-mole.

On top of that, when he (Urbie player) started going after the other players, we found it was hard to stop him. Even in the wider open map that the game was being played on, the AC/10's range still kept the mech relevant. Every turn he basically advanced his mob up the field, creating no-go zones, and nothing left could survive the barrage that he could throw out.

A side torso critical is only a real problem if you've only stored ammo there and can even be a benefit if you can make sure you've fired it off early since you can critical hit an empty ammo bin (eg, CRD-3R which has 8 shots of LRM-15 ammo in each side torso, thing is you can fire that off pretty quickly but you can still critical hit an empty ammunition stowage location).

If you jump in behind someone with a UM-R60L your chances of scoring a CT-Crit increase dramatically, not only might you roll a 1-1, but if you roll a 7 you're pretty much guaranteed a critical roll too. If you roll snake-eyes you probably get two rolls. You've also got a 1/36 chance of killing any mech going outright. Something that just doesn't happen with any other weapon in 3025.

If you've got any kind of standard terrain though, the likelihood is that the other guy will pound even an AC-10 armed Urbanmech into scrap long before it'll be effective since every other mech on the board will either be able to outgun it or outrun it and outgun it.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I remember a game with Urban mechs.

A bunch of us were playing on a larger map, about poster sized. One friend spent her BV on two stock annihilators, while her brother took the same BV in stock urbies.

Outnumbered almost seven to one, by mechs that were tough enough to actually survive a round of fire, she got swarmed by AC 10 wielding jump turrets. I think she managed to kill five of them before her last mech literally got it's legs kicked out from under it. It was a hilarious game of reverse whack-a-mole.

On top of that, when he (Urbie player) started going after the other players, we found it was hard to stop him. Even in the wider open map that the game was being played on, the AC/10's range still kept the mech relevant. Every turn he basically advanced his mob up the field, creating no-go zones, and nothing left could survive the barrage that he could throw out.

Going by BV the ratio should have been around two Annihilators to six or seven Urbanmechs, not 7:1 and 8 AC-10s in 2 mechs vs 1 AC-10 each in 6-7 mechs is a fairly even scrap. I can believe that the two ANH-1As were lost, I find it harder to believe however that the remaining two UM-R60s were that difficult to kill, given that at full movement they'd be a best presenting a +1 to hit (+ Terrain) and they only carry 10 shots in total each for their AC-10s for the whole engagement, realistically they'd have run out of ammo long before they'd run out of targets. Two GRF-1N Griffins would be more than a match even if they didn't move. If there were around 14x UM-R60 against 2x ANH-1A Annihilators then somebody fumbled the numbers and it's not that surprising that a BV over 7,000 force managed to stomp a BV 3,200 force and still had mechs left over to spare.

IME, Urbies do consistently well enough for their weight when used as they are supposed to be, that is, in full lances with proper support and defending stuff, preferably on complex environments. And the AC/10 works very well for it.

It would work better if we were using the videogame's Stability rules, though

Man, I still remember when we played using tonnage, tthat time when I said: "Ok, then I'll just play with the alloted tonnage in Savannah Masters".

We stopped using that gauge, for some reason.

 simonr1978 wrote:


If you jump in behind someone with a UM-R60L your chances of scoring a CT-Crit increase dramatically, not only might you roll a 1-1, but if you roll a 7 you're pretty much guaranteed a critical roll too. If you roll snake-eyes you probably get two rolls. You've also got a 1/36 chance of killing any mech going outright. Something that just doesn't happen with any other weapon in 3025.

That is a big if. you have a jump range of 2, so unless your opponent deliberately turns their back on your Urbie, at a stupidly short range, you wont be able to pull this off. in other cases they deserve what they get. To engineer a backstrike yourself you need to be toe to toe with them more of less in order to cross to the back arc. Running (i.e waddling faster) might get you there, but to get there you must already be there.

Now an A10 has a respectable threat range, an Urbie can waddle around the flanks and be ignored temporary as a low threat, if you then force the opposing flank with front line mechs you will engineer circumstances where opponents will have to turn rear armour. Unless your flank move are made of Locusts or similar they are likely to turn back on the Urbies. Now your opponent has to do this, you cant turn a flank so they choose the range bracket they turn back on you. I doubt they will do so at a range less than six unless horribly pressed because even a single AC10 is dangerous in the rear arc. It is very likely that you will get rear targets, but at unrealistic range brackets and ones where you will likely have to run or jump the Urbie anyway, for further weapons penalties.

The whole ideal of 'we ambush them at point blank range from behind buildings' is all well and good, but it requires your opponents cooperation. A longer range band however enables this. If you wonu envisage replacing the AC10 with a PPC I would be listening, but the AC20 Urbie is of use as a single surprise ace in the hole in a larger team of Urbies, or for defending a fortress where the structures themselves provide most of the firepower and Urbies are just a way of moving the short range heavy autocannon 'turrets' to where they are needed.

Frankly it isn't even needed to do what you do. For point blank urban ambush you cant beat an SRM carrier. Well you can, it has a glass chassis, but not until after it has slagged your opponents prize mech. I have two and two Hetzers, they give my clan opponent shivers.

 simonr1978 wrote:

If you've got any kind of standard terrain though, the likelihood is that the other guy will pound even an AC-10 armed Urbanmech into scrap long before it'll be effective since every other mech on the board will either be able to outgun it or outrun it and outgun it.

I agree almost entirely, but even for their primary role of urban combat you need that range so you can pop the ambush at a range relevant to catching a target. Otherwise you wil have to wait until they come right up to you, and they might not take the bait.. I do envisage Urbies for deliberate open combat, but I would fix them up with two AC2's or an LRM20 battery both with an AAA tracker system and leave them as relocatable AAA turrets guarding support and supply elements.. Its more of as a fluff consideration though.

However numbers count, and Urbies ought to have numbers.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I remember a game with Urban mechs.

A bunch of us were playing on a larger map, about poster sized. One friend spent her BV on two stock annihilators, while her brother took the same BV in stock urbies.

Outnumbered almost seven to one, by mechs that were tough enough to actually survive a round of fire, she got swarmed by AC 10 wielding jump turrets. I think she managed to kill five of them before her last mech literally got it's legs kicked out from under it. It was a hilarious game of reverse whack-a-mole.

On top of that, when he (Urbie player) started going after the other players, we found it was hard to stop him. Even in the wider open map that the game was being played on, the AC/10's range still kept the mech relevant. Every turn he basically advanced his mob up the field, creating no-go zones, and nothing left could survive the barrage that he could throw out.

Nice story and in those numbers it is a moving firebase, and the range was necessary. I doubt this would have worked otherwise.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:


Man, I still remember when we played using tonnage, tthat time when I said: "Ok, then I'll just play with the alloted tonnage in Savannah Masters".

We stopped using that gauge, for some reason.

Tonnage is in my opinion still the best way to play, it was the original points system for the game in its glory years of the 80's. to early 90's. However Battletech is a non competitive game and has to be played that way. Weapons are imbalanced, tech is imbalanced, designs are imbalanced.
So you choose to take the rough with the smooth, and make sure your opponent does also.

Sometimes we use BV but only when a scenario is predesigned. for pick and play you go by tonnage, and if you take a strong mech you take a weak one and you self police. Sure do take some Savannah Masters to back up the stock Charger you are fielding to round up that section of your list to 100tons. It makes a neat five unit striker force.
"What are you doing Mr Charger?"
"I am taking my pets for walkies."

We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.

 simonr1978 wrote:

We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.

Emerald chicken?

jbeil wrote:

 simonr1978 wrote:

We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.

Emerald chicken?

Sounds more like Ghost Bear.

jbeil wrote:

 simonr1978 wrote:

We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.

Emerald chicken?

Just FYI, but that was Orlanth not me.

The whole ideal of 'we ambush them at point blank range from behind buildings' is all well and good, but it requires your opponents cooperation. A longer range band however enables this. If you wonu envisage replacing the AC10 with a PPC I would be listening, but the AC20 Urbie is of use as a single surprise ace in the hole in a larger team of Urbies, or for defending a fortress where the structures themselves provide most of the firepower and Urbies are just a way of moving the short range heavy autocannon 'turrets' to where they are needed.

It depends, if the Urbanmech is part of a lance with other mech types it should be reasonably possible, especially if you've got the Initiative, to put your opponent in a position where one of their mechs may find themselves exposing their rear quarter, I'm assuming here that most opponents will regard any Urbanmech as a secondary threat because it's a Light that's slower than most Assaults and would probably be concentrating on dealing with the more effective enemy mech first, I'm also assuming that the first indication you'll get that I'm using a UM-R60L is when I declare fire . Or if you're running two or three it should be reasonably possible to position one or more where to turn to face them means exposing yourself to the third, if not then 3x AC-20s firing at you is nothing to be taken lightly.

In my experience they're the sort that can work well as area denial too, if it's 3025 and I know there's an AC-20 armed mech in the area I'll generally try to keep a good distance since I know it can take my mech's head off regardless of what I'm piloting, I wouldn't accord the same degree of caution to an AC-10 armed mech since I'm infinitely more likely to survive a Head hit, so for a mere 30 tonnes that can secure a pretty decent radius, not indefinitely true, but long enough that unless I've got the initiative I'd generally work my way around or call in some support in the form of fast and preferably jumping mechs that can use their speed and mobility to hopefully ensure they wont get hit. Point is, there's a good chance it can slow me down just by existing in the way that pretty much no other light mech can. At the end of the day I guess, whatever works for you. I generally favour the AC-20 in CQB since the trade-off of what you loose in range is more than outweighed in what you gain in damage and the possibility of scoring a one-shot kill and usually the terrain should be dense enough that the longer range boundaries aren't too much of an advantage. If the standard UM-R60 works better for you, then fine.

That said, they also work excellently in heavily wooded areas or jungles where they can match or even actually out-run and out-manouevre some mediums and heavies and the extra-range doesn't matter if you can't see further than 4 or 5 hexes anyway.

Maybe it's just that I've got a healthy respect for the UM-R60L after my first encounter with one when my inquisitive Raven popped over a ridge to see what was on the other side and got an AC-20 to face for its trouble (First shot of the game and it was outside of the -20's Close range as well), maybe I have a fondness for the type because one of the first custom mech designs I dabbled with was an experiment to see what the lightest mech I could cram an AC-20 into was only to find on buying my first book of record sheets that it was almost perfectly mirrored by an existing design.

Frankly it isn't even needed to do what you do. For point blank urban ambush you cant beat an SRM carrier. Well you can, it has a glass chassis, but not until after it has slagged your opponents prize mech. I have two and two Hetzers, they give my clan opponent shivers.

...and if you want a light mech dealing 10 points of damage with a 15+ range for a extra 5 tonnes a PNT-9R will in most circumstances out-range, out-gun, out-run and out-manoeuvre a UM-R60. Rationally, there's almost no good reason to ever chose an Urbanmech. SRM Carriers are just evil though, that said I don't use them in my own units because crew survivability (Along with unit versatility) is a big factor for me in choosing AFVs and SRM Carriers are just far too fragile for my liking (It's too easy to get one to brew-up and take its crew with it and they're just too specialised).

That's one of the reasons why I personally favour a campaign style play though, a PNT-9R might be the obvious choice to me but if what I've managed to salvage and repair is a UMR-60 then that's what the new recruit's getting.

but I would fix them up with two AC2

At design stage there is practically no good reason to chose an AC-5 over a PPC or an AC-2 over an LRM-5 for a Light or Medium Mech. Unless you're going to impose some restriction on the technology available to a particular faction. The AC-2 has a marginal advantage in range, but if you're looking at creating a light, long range harassment mech an LRM-5 will do the job just as well in 90%+ of the circumstances for much less tonnage. A light 3025 Sniper type mech was one of my early experiments, crunching the numbers a couple of LRM-5s was an easy choice over an AC-2.

Nice story and in those numbers it is a moving firebase, and the range was necessary. I doubt this would have worked otherwise.

Worth reiterating here that from the story as recounted and assuming they were using standard Inner Sphere pilots whether you use BV1 or 2 or Tonnage, there were at least twice as many Urbanmechs as there should have been even allowing for some fairly generous rounding so it's not massively surprising that the Annihilators came out worse. If the BV or Tonnage was more or less equal, I'd expect a much closer fight with the remaining Urbanmechs practically out of ammo by the end and incapable of doing anything much more than withdrawing as fast as their stumpy little legs would carry them.

From Sarna the BV1/BV2 for the Annihilator is 1,151/1,434 and for the Urbanmech 454/504. So by either BV system there should have been at most six Urbanmechs or by tonnage seven if you're being generous against two Annihilators. A far cry from 7:1. Using BV2 that would have been 7,056 in Urbanmechs against 2,868 in Annihilators, with BV1 it looks even worse.

Either the OP is mis-remembering or someone seriously miscalculated or fudged their numbers.

jbeil wrote:

 simonr1978 wrote:

We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.

Emerald chicken?

Something like that.

 Nostromodamus wrote:

jbeil wrote:

 simonr1978 wrote:

We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.

Emerald chicken?

Sounds more like Ghost Bear.

Cough, cough.

 simonr1978 wrote:

jbeil wrote:

 simonr1978 wrote:

We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.

Emerald chicken?

Just FYI, but that was Orlanth not me.

He does not know his clans.

 simonr1978 wrote:

The whole ideal of 'we ambush them at point blank range from behind buildings' is all well and good, but it requires your opponents cooperation. A longer range band however enables this. If you wonu envisage replacing the AC10 with a PPC I would be listening, but the AC20 Urbie is of use as a single surprise ace in the hole in a larger team of Urbies, or for defending a fortress where the structures themselves provide most of the firepower and Urbies are just a way of moving the short range heavy autocannon 'turrets' to where they are needed.

It depends, if the Urbanmech is part of a lance with other mech types it should be reasonably possible, especially if you've got the Initiative, to put your opponent in a position where one of their mechs may find themselves exposing their rear quarter, I'm assuming here that most opponents will regard any Urbanmech as a secondary threat because it's a Light that's slower than most Assaults and would probably be concentrating on dealing with the more effective enemy mech first, I'm also assuming that the first indication you'll get that I'm using a UM-R60L is when I declare fire .

I am not sure. If you are running a single Urbie in an open lance I might actually shoot the Urbie first. it hasn't much armour and cannot generate movement penalties as a target, only for itself. It can still carry a nasty gun. Sure other things are much nastier but you can get the Urbie over and done with quickly while keeping your own speed up.

 simonr1978 wrote:

Or if you're running two or three it should be reasonably possible to position one or more where to turn to face them means exposing yourself to the third, if not then 3x AC-20s firing at you is nothing to be taken lightly.

If running a pack then a single AC20 is easy to hide and a nasty surprise, but this is outfitting one per lance maximum, with most with stock AC10.

 simonr1978 wrote:

In my experience they're the sort that can work well as area denial too, if it's 3025 and I know there's an AC-20 armed mech in the area I'll generally try to keep a good distance since I know it can take my mech's head off regardless of what I'm piloting,

This is very true. The AC20 has a psychological factor all of its own. It's big numbers psychology . 20 is a big number in Battletech. Gauss rifles and ER PPC are far more potent, but not remotely as scary as the AC20. SRM carriers reach 'big number' psychology by having ten SRM6.
Nothing clears an area quite like a King Crab, or a Hunchback IIC, nothing is nastier, but other designs are far more dangerous.

 simonr1978 wrote:

I wouldn't accord the same degree of caution to an AC-10 armed mech since I'm infinitely more likely to survive a Head hit, so for a mere 30 tonnes that can secure a pretty decent radius, not indefinitely true, but long enough that unless I've got the initiative I'd generally work my way around or call in some support in the form of fast and preferably jumping mechs that can use their speed and mobility to hopefully ensure they wont get hit. Point is, there's a good chance it can slow me down just by existing in the way that pretty much no other light mech can. At the end of the day I guess, whatever works for you. I generally favour the AC-20 in CQB since the trade-off of what you loose in range is more than outweighed in what you gain in damage and the possibility of scoring a one-shot kill and usually the terrain should be dense enough that the longer range boundaries aren't too much of an advantage. If the standard UM-R60 works better for you, then fine.

It works better in general. The AC20 Urbie is a definite one trick dog. Both can be nasty as ambush hunters, but the stock Urbie can get more ambushers in close range and thus cause more actual overall damage. It is difficult to get several Ac20 in decent ranges, though even one mech is nasty. The stock Urbie can easily get several mechs to ambush at once by having a far larger kill net and support range. AC10 can do pack swarms in open battle and generate significant aggressive threat, AC20 Urbie packs in open battle are a curiosity, you just stay away from their corner, and can also shoot into it.

 simonr1978 wrote:

That said, they also work excellently in heavily wooded areas or jungles where they can match or even actually out-run and out-manouevre some mediums and heavies and the extra-range doesn't matter if you can't see further than 4 or 5 hexes anyway.

The JungleMech is the Panther. Energy weapon loadout for protracted battle, just enough mobility to survive and

 simonr1978 wrote:

Maybe it's just that I've got a healthy respect for the UM-R60L after my first encounter with one when my inquisitive Raven popped over a ridge to see what was on the other side and got an AC-20 to face for its trouble (First shot of the game and it was outside of the -20's Close range as well), maybe I have a fondness for the type because one of the first custom mech designs I dabbled with was an experiment to see what the lightest mech I could cram an AC-20 into was only to find on buying my first book of record sheets that it was almost perfectly mirrored by an existing design.

Sounds like you never shook the shock away. That was a lucky hit.
First time my opponent fielded a Dire Wolf it got headcapped by a gauss rifle on its first turn. I never got the idea they were a push over from that, even though he has hardly ever fielded it since (greatly prefering the Blood Asp.)

 simonr1978 wrote:

Frankly it isn't even needed to do what you do. For point blank urban ambush you cant beat an SRM carrier. Well you can, it has a glass chassis, but not until after it has slagged your opponents prize mech. I have two and two Hetzers, they give my clan opponent shivers.

...and if you want a light mech dealing 10 points of damage with a 15+ range for a extra 5 tonnes a PNT-9R will in most circumstances out-range, out-gun, out-run and out-manoeuvre a UM-R60. Rationally, there's almost no good reason to ever chose an Urbanmech. SRM Carriers are just evil though, that said I don't use them in my own units because crew survivability (Along with unit versatility) is a big factor for me in choosing AFVs and SRM Carriers are just far too fragile for my liking (It's too easy to get one to brew-up and take its crew with it and they're just too specialised).

All this is true.

That's one of the reasons why I personally favour a campaign style play though, a PNT-9R might be the obvious choice to me but if what I've managed to salvage and repair is a UMR-60 then that's what the new recruit's getting.

Crewing for vehicles was crudely implemented, it has nothing to do with weapon loadouts, its just one crew per 15 tons or part thereof. Some vehices have unnecessarily large crews. Demolishers for instance. IMHO the SRM carrier would be better as a drone, its slow enough that it can be controlled by a control vehicle rather than an AI.


Have you tried adding the SRM array onto a Demolisher chassis, its fits by the way, being very similar in volume and tonnage. Demolisher SRM is a nasty variant and makes sense. In my head-canon I have " .Hon 'Mech " lances which are two pairs of a stock UrbanMech or occasionally a PPC UrbanMech, paired with a Demolisher or occasionally a Demolisher SRM. Each pair is a mech and tank duo for mutual support. Two .Hon 'Mech lances are backed by a support lance which consists of two Heavy APC's with combat engineer infantry platoon between them, an AAA unit, usually a JagerMech, and an artillery piece, either an LRM carrier or a J-27 with towed Thumper. All this becomes a "Defender Company", the HQ of which is not one of the 'Mechs either.

There are nastier combinations in the game for tabletop play but it makes colourful sense as an static defence element for my head-canon Merc unit.

 simonr1978 wrote:

but I would fix them up with two AC2

At design stage there is practically no good reason to chose an AC-5 over a PPC or an AC-2 over an LRM-5 for a Light or Medium Mech. Unless you're going to impose some restriction on the technology available to a particular faction. The AC-2 has a marginal advantage in range, but if you're looking at creating a light, long range harassment mech an LRM-5 will do the job just as well in 90%+ of the circumstances for much less tonnage. A light 3025 Sniper type mech was one of my early experiments, crunching the numbers a couple of LRM-5s was an easy choice over an AC-2.

As I think you realise the double AC2 Urbie is a fluff consideration only, for head-canon or RPG.

 simonr1978 wrote:

Nice story and in those numbers it is a moving firebase, and the range was necessary. I doubt this would have worked otherwise.

Worth reiterating here that from the story as recounted and assuming they were using standard Inner Sphere pilots whether you use BV1 or 2 or Tonnage, there were at least twice as many Urbanmechs as there should have been even allowing for some fairly generous rounding so it's not massively surprising that the Annihilators came out worse. If the BV or Tonnage was more or less equal, I'd expect a much closer fight with the remaining Urbanmechs practically out of ammo by the end and incapable of doing anything much more than withdrawing as fast as their stumpy little legs would carry them.

From Sarna the BV1/BV2 for the Annihilator is 1,151/1,434 and for the Urbanmech 454/504. So by either BV system there should have been at most six Urbanmechs or by tonnage seven if you're being generous against two Annihilators. A far cry from 7:1. Using BV2 that would have been 7,056 in Urbanmechs against 2,868 in Annihilators, with BV1 it looks even worse.

Either the OP is mis-remembering or someone seriously miscalculated or fudged their numbers.

It is far more favourable if balanced in C-bills. 1.5M vs 9.7M. BV is a very crude system, the Urbie is less than the sum of its parts because you pay for a component regardless of what it is on. When doing scenario design in BV we allow for fluff, by agreement you can take more of certain units than their BV suggests as part of a bulk discount. Urbies get that, as do Stingers, other mechs do not. Scorpion tanks get that deal also and get the best discount for buying platoons/lances of all the same.

I'll comment on the rest later I'm sure but this deserves a comment straight away:

The JungleMech is the Panther.

No. It really isn't. Because of the minimum range penalties on the PPC, jungles or heavy woods are the areas that the PNT-9R is definitely at a disadvantage compared to either AC-10 or especialy the AC-20 Urbanmech variant, to have any chance at all of hitting an Urbanmech it would have be inside your minimum range.

 Orlanth wrote:
This is true of one Urbie but how about four or six. Urbies often have to take running or jump penalties, so they need short rage to hit. AC20 short range doesnt cut it unless you are muscling your way forward.
Urbies cannot press an attack like a Hunchback can, they are a rective ambush hunter, and once the opponent cottons on there is an AC20 urbie it will be starved of targets, and possibly isolated and picked off with indirect fire if necessary.

Opponents will not stray within so short a range of an Urbie ambush, especially if you have more than one Urbie. The better range brackets of AC10 make all the difference.

I would rather hit for 10 than miss with 20.

Ther eis a reason I own a BATTALION of Urbies. You do not deploy them individually, or in lances. They are company formation units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:


Man, I still remember when we played using tonnage, tthat time when I said: "Ok, then I'll just play with the alloted tonnage in Savannah Masters".

We stopped using that gauge, for some reason.

Back in the day, when BV 1 came out, there was a terror: The Turkina B. First 'Mech to top 3000 BV, because it was a beast. It was being brought to every bloody game you could find, because Clan pulse lasers and targeting computers.

Local tournament guy said you could bring 3500 BV in 'Mechs, vehicles, and pilots. No infantry. 7 out of 10 players brought Turkey Bs.

I brought Ferret Light Cargo Transport VTOLS, with a BV of...

ONE. So I have counters (which is fine for hex play) for 3500 VTOLs.

VTOLS can't charge, or make physical attacks. But as a vehicle, I could put 2 in every hex. And every LEVEL of every hex. Can't move through an enemy unit, so it couldn't move unless it wanted to charge, but then it couldn't fire all those pulse lasers.

So the Turkina shoots down a half dozen every turn, meanwhile, I just have a handful in a hex above him turn off their engines and crash land on it. Couple points of damage, punch location table.

I encouraged players not to do the cheesy thing, but to play a FORCE. I won the tournament.