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 Grimgold wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

Grimgold wrote:
You took a storm surge in a 1k lists?

The enemy had a Daemon Prince, and SSs are easier to deal with (as his BR will tell you)

You mean he had an 8 wound HQ unit, nevermind that totally justifies bringing an imperial knight equivalent to a 1k game. If I tried anything that beardy my FLGS would start a gofundme to hire the shame lady from Game of Thrones to follow me around.

You're presuming that Stormsurge's are still competitive choices, after five games I can confirm for you that they are not. They're too expensive. You can take 3 Commanders for those points that do much more damage.

The surge is a casual only choice now; which is fine, because that's mostly what I play these days.

My money is on the following rough army;

Commander strike team (1-4 commanders, with fusion/CIB or MP+DC)

Drone Swarms

Tetras (fingers crossed)

Y'Vahra (1-2+).

Er... replace troops with markerlights, who needs CP anyways The reason why; none of the regular options seem like their very good, crisis suit squads are just too bloaty

 The Shrike wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

Grimgold wrote:
You took a storm surge in a 1k lists?

The enemy had a Daemon Prince, and SSs are easier to deal with (as his BR will tell you)

You mean he had an 8 wound HQ unit, nevermind that totally justifies bringing an imperial knight equivalent to a 1k game. If I tried anything that beardy my FLGS would start a gofundme to hire the shame lady from Game of Thrones to follow me around.

You're presuming that Stormsurge's are still competitive choices, after five games I can confirm for you that they are not. They're too expensive. You can take 3 Commanders for those points that do much more damage.

The surge is a casual only choice now; which is fine, because that's mostly what I play these days.

It's pretty much like being shocked over a gorkanaut at 1000 points 7th ed.

Sure, its a huge thing for 1000 points, but honestly? you're better off without it.

Mandragola wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:

Ghostkeels ends up costing about the same as a broadside, but seems a lot better - definitely more fun.

I'd agree with that. Of our bigger suits, ghostkeels are one of the better options. They're still far worse than Commanders, though, unfortunately.

Commanders are great, clearly. They aren't especially survivable though. Going close to the enemy is inherently very dangerous for Tau, and you may not even be able to get to whatever you're trying to kill if your opponent bubblewraps it. Ultimately you don't want to be trading a commander for a rhino. You need something with a bit of reach.

The trouble is, I'm not sure what that is. All the railgun platforms seem outclassed by lascannon platforms. Missilesides with shield drones nearby do chuck out a serious amount of shooting, but even three of them with ATS would be lucky to kill a rhino in a turn. Markerlights would help with that - but add even more to the cost.

Yeah, Commanders' fragility is definitely a huge issue. I plan on keeping them around drones which will mitigate that issue to some extent, but small arms fire followed by medium or heavy weapons will still eat you in a hurry. We may be obligated to go the glass cannon route and plan to mow down anything nearby that'll threaten your Commanders. Given the firepower we can put out on a drop, that's not an unreasonable goal at all. I wish we had more useful backfield anchors. Stormsurges, Riptides, and Broadsides don't do much for me. Hammerheads are close to being fun, given Long strike's presence but are poor choices. Maybe the R'Varna will prove to be a useful, durable gun platform.

Here is what bothers me about Broadsides

70 points for
BS+3 Toughness 7 Wounds 8, Save+3
Has the option of paying 20 points for 6+ FNP and +1 BS

33 points for
48" Heavy 4 Strength 7 AP -1 Damage 2

So 136 points for the same fire power as a HYMP which costs 162 points (without considering the Broadside secondary weapons, which would add another 20-40 points)
Broadsides are BS+4, Toughness 5, Wounds 6, Save+2

Broadsides are stupidly overcosted at the moment!
HYMP should be 30-35 points not 41 points.
Heavy Rail Rifle should be about 50-55 points, not 63 points.
Smart Missile Systems should be about 15 points, not 20 points.

The Chassis should be about 60 points, not 80.

Overall, I would say that Broadsides are about... 40 points Over Priced.

Side Note, Missile Pods should be 15-20 points, not 24 points.

Building my army now (New to tau).

Ghostkeel, do you think support systems are worth it and whats the best setup you think? (I know what weapons are good in general for him, but b.c idk tau well and the army as a while would like to see what you guys think)

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Building my army now (New to tau).

Ghostkeel, do you think support systems are worth it and whats the best setup you think? (I know what weapons are good in general for him, but b.c idk tau well and the army as a while would like to see what you guys think)

Most people agree a target lock is a good option on a ghostkeel so it can fire effectively on the move. If giving it fusion weapons then it may not need any other support system (though several are decent). The ion raker and burst cannons are much improved by the ATS.

The target lock is the eternal question.

If you got one, the 3ML result does nothing, if you dont have one, you NEED 3 ML.

Its a lose/lose situation. I for one don't like it one bit, enough to put me off the unit entirely.

Mandragola wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Building my army now (New to tau).

Ghostkeel, do you think support systems are worth it and whats the best setup you think? (I know what weapons are good in general for him, but b.c idk tau well and the army as a while would like to see what you guys think)

Most people agree a target lock is a good option on a ghostkeel so it can fire effectively on the move. If giving it fusion weapons then it may not need any other support system (though several are decent). The ion raker and burst cannons are much improved by the ATS.

This is what i was going to do, just dbl checking.

Speaking of support systems choices, what are you guys thinking for the Y'Vahra? I'm currently thinking ATS and stims will be the way to go for extra brutality from the flamer and a little cushion from the constant self-winding it'll be doing. The MT I see as a waste, because anything you sail you Y'Vahra towards is likely a priority target that'll have some marker hits on it. I can see taking the TL, even with all the auto hits, too. It already has an invuln, so no need for the shield gen. With one flamer weapon on board, the VT seems a little pointless.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Building my army now (New to tau).

Ghostkeel, do you think support systems are worth it and whats the best setup you think? (I know what weapons are good in general for him, but b.c idk tau well and the army as a while would like to see what you guys think)

I think the best option is EWO. Ghostkeels are cheap and EWO is a powerful deterrent.

Popping in to inform you that Tau engineering/technical drones from FW will be able to repair Suits' wounds. This may mitigate the Nova-Charge wounds.

 Verviedi wrote:
Popping in to inform you that Tau engineering/technical drones from FW will be able to repair Suits' wounds. This may mitigate the Nova-Charge wounds.

Is this confirmed? Where? Must see!

 Verviedi wrote:
Popping in to inform you that Tau engineering/technical drones from FW will be able to repair Suits' wounds. This may mitigate the Nova-Charge wounds.

This would be huge; points dependent though.

 Verviedi wrote:
Popping in to inform you that Tau engineering/technical drones from FW will be able to repair Suits' wounds. This may mitigate the Nova-Charge wounds.

1 - Sounds... Mediocre... Imps have been able to heal their tanks and Chaos auto heals some of their tanks. It doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal
2 - Sounds... Like it should be standard Tau, not Forgeworld.

I like to think of Forgeworld stuff as being the really gamebreaking stuff. So a bit of healing doesn't seem extremely Forgeworld.

 The Shrike wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Popping in to inform you that Tau engineering/technical drones from FW will be able to repair Suits' wounds. This may mitigate the Nova-Charge wounds.

This would be huge; points dependent though.

16pts each, default unit is 2 drones
in the shooting phase select a battlesuit unit within 3", on a 4+ one model in that unit may heal d3 wounds

 Talamare wrote:

I like to think of Forgeworld stuff as being the really gamebreaking stuff. So a bit of healing doesn't seem extremely Forgeworld.

You dont own any forgeworld stuff I take it? Majority of the forgeworld units are vastly overcosted and not even terribly good. A handful of models are really strong, but still come with a hefty point cost (e.g. y'vhara).

My first post might as well be here.

I am a T'au player ever since their creation and have experienced the birthing pains and will continue to fight with them until they go the way of the Squats. Long story aside I have excitement and reservations about 8th edition here.

With that said. Talamare awesome stats running for the new edition for the T'au. It was very informative and I appreciate that you took the time to run the numbers.

I do have a question about Kroot option that seems like a useful buffer under the new system. I say this because I would run 2-3 squads in front of the firing line with-in 6in of an etherial so they can mitigate loss due to being shot (min squad is 10). This is strictly a fire warrior, Kroot, and yes put the Drones in there. If you do calculations ignore the cost of the etherial because I see them being a main-stay in my armies even under the MSU mentality.

I would post my current thought about a 2000pt list but I am going to be running it tomorrow agains a friend. (Battle report pending) We are both a little bummed because we both loved bringing the big stuff to the table and duking it out. However thats not happing anymore due to point creep across the board.

MoD_Legion wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

I like to think of Forgeworld stuff as being the really gamebreaking stuff. So a bit of healing doesn't seem extremely Forgeworld.

You dont own any forgeworld stuff I take it? Majority of the forgeworld units are vastly overcosted and not even terribly good. A handful of models are really strong, but still come with a hefty point cost (e.g. y'vhara).

Tetras will likely still be the most efficient way to drop markerlights.

How do you guys feel about gun drones on vehicles now. i've always spent the points on upgrading them to SMSs but I'm thinking in 8th the gun drones might be a decent option.

Vehicle upgrades are really expensive now, with SMS costing you 40 points for the pair. Now that you can let drones take the wounds of nearby infantry and suits it might be worthwhile to save some points and take the drones. Just detach them and let them fly up with your suits to soak up shots.

cmspano wrote:
How do you guys feel about gun drones on vehicles now. i've always spent the points on upgrading them to SMSs but I'm thinking in 8th the gun drones might be a decent option.

Vehicle upgrades are really expensive now, with SMS costing you 40 points for the pair. Now that you can let drones take the wounds of nearby infantry and suits it might be worthwhile to save some points and take the drones. Just detach them and let them fly up with your suits to soak up shots.

I'm not a competitive player but I always like the drones because I used them to harry small enemy units or otherwise confuse the enemy by creating multiple small units of drones; 5 vehicles equals 5, 2-drone units.

I'm working on a 1K mech list, breachers in fish, a few suits, and a couple hammerheads. Probably going to keep the drones. They can disembark with the breachers


Edit: Oh wow, I just noticed something. Read the rules for attached drones:

"When a Hammerhead Gunship is set up, any accompanying Gun Drones are attached and are treated as being embarked. Whilst the Gun Drones remain attached, the Hammerhead Gunship is considered to be equipped with the Drones' weapons in addition to it's own"

That would mean that a the 4 pulse carbines use the vehicle's BS and not their own. And they won't have to fire at only the closest unit since it's the Hammerhead that's actually firing the weapons as if it were their own.

yep, vehicle drones are good even if you want them just to cut costs. SMS are quite expensive now!

So Y'vahras are just over 400pts after upgrades. That seems pretty workable to me. They drop way more firepower than 2 Hammerheads, for comparison. I think I'll find a way to slide at least one of them into my lists to see how it goes.

Now, the Ta'unar. That guy is an interesting case. At ~1200pts, it's obviously a huge portion of your army. However, I'd say it compares pretty well with anything you'd otherwise take with those points. At BS2+ 48 standard S5 shots plus the arm and main weapons is pretty impressive. For ease of comparison, consider a Ta'unar with a pulse ordnance multidriver and fusion eradicators. That's either 16 or 10+2D6 high-strength shots, or roughly the equivalent of 4 fusion Commanders, which cost 640pts. You'd need about 21 drone-controlled Gun Drones to have an equal amount of hits, so that's about 800 pts. In other words, you're dropping about 350-400pts for some extra range and a really durable platform. however, you lose the versatility of being able to drop in at will to fry your targets and of having multiple units to move around. I'm very interested in giving the big guy a shot.

Edit: BTW, I just noticed that the Ta'unar is a battlesuit. Veeeeeeery interesting, indeed!

So what about the Pirhana? It has T6 which is pretty good but I fell like its underarmed for its point cost and actually only 2 Railrifles might be worthwhile

So comparing a match-up of a Taunar with Pulse Ordnance and Dual Tri-Axis Ion Cannons (Plus 4 SS and 4 BC) vs a Revenant with Dual Pulsars and Cloudburst Missiles, the Taunar will do 24 unsaved damage per turn on average (27 if within range of burst cannons & Smart missiles) where as the Revenant will do 34 unsaved damage on average.

Now comparing their power points of 55 for the Taunar vs 60 for Revenant, this seems fair. However if you played match play, the Revenant is 1200 points vs the Taunar at 1202, yet the Revenant has 2 more wounds, +1 toughness, does more damage, and has 16" more movement.

What loadout would you give the Tau'nar? Personally I'm leaning towards nexus missiles and tri-axis ion cannons. The railgun doesn't really seem worth it compared to the other options which both seem pretty decent. For the arms I think that fusion eradicators have a too short range, although their damage is very good.

 Dantioch wrote:
What loadout would you give the Tau'nar? Personally I'm leaning towards nexus missiles and tri-axis ion cannons. The railgun doesn't really seem worth it compared to the other options which both seem pretty decent. For the arms I think that fusion eradicators have a too short range, although their damage is very good.

Vs most titans, the Nexus would average 3 more damage but it has a 24" minimum range, which can be exploited and cost another 27 points. The rail riffle is horrid. A Taunar facing a Revenant armed with the rail cannon does only 16 wounds on average and yet costs 9 points more than the Pulse Ordinance. How the heck GW messed up that weapon option so badly is beyond me. Personally, I would stick with the Pulse Ordinance.

I honestly hadnt looked at anything else in the xenos book prior to posting, but it's pretty depressing that the Revenant is just straight better than the Ta'unar. That seems like a glaring failure, to me.

In any event, it seems like the rail cannon is the black sheep of the main weapons. High-strength, one-shot weapons are to 8th as bombs were to 7th. That is, they don't really do a lot of damage, but GE seems to think they're game-breaking and deserve a massive price tag. Really, S9 is about all you really need, since most tough stuff is T8. The Nexus missiles are good, but the minimum range is crippling. Consequently, the pulse ordnance is really the only option.

 wyomingfox wrote:
So comparing a match-up of a Taunar with Pulse Ordnance and Dual Tri-Axis Ion Cannons (Plus 4 SS and 4 BC) vs a Revenant with Dual Pulsars and Cloudburst Missiles, the Taunar will do 24 unsaved damage per turn on average (27 if within range of burst cannons & Smart missiles) where as the Revenant will do 34 unsaved damage on average.

Now comparing their power points of 55 for the Taunar vs 60 for Revenant, this seems fair. However if you played match play, the Revenant is 1200 points vs the Taunar at 1202, yet the Revenant has 2 more wounds, +1 toughness, does more damage, and has 16" more movement.

Because your a god damned dirty Tau player. We all are. No justice for us. No balance and there never will be.