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bobafett012 wrote:

As for the TH/SS on the serg, thats possibly another story, I think that might be a good investment because he can soak high AP shots, and if he does get into CC, he has 3 TH attacks. I haven't got a chance to run them yet, as i just got 3 of them painted up, but that's next on the agenda.

Its handy with the extra attack on the sgt but the sgt gets a PS which shaves 8 points off the squad, doesnt seem like much but it all helps keep an expensive squad cheaper.

My thoughts on an army is based around my 4th edition army
Approx 1750 points. for 1500 points drop 1 squad of termies
Belial
4 squads of terminators
2 Landspeeders either just MM or HB/Typhoons pending points
2 Contemptor Dreads
1 Predator TLLC with HB sponsons

Deploy - Pred deploys central with contemptors, speeders deploy flank. try and hide as much as possible to deny the enemy targets

1st Turn - Belial and 3 termies deploy on one flank, contemptors move and shoot toward that flank for CC and fire support. Pred holds baseline with fire support. Speeders advance/hold back pending weapons.

Plan is for the termies to land and shoot up a flank whilst denying opponents other flank from having targets.

2nd turn - termies move toward opposition centre, 1 termy squad in reserve deployed where needed.

It is a tactic that worked very well for me before (hopefully will again), many opponents panic with the termies in their face and mentally lose the game, some try and wipe out the termies and ignore the baseline firepower and dreads, some focus on the dreads/pred/speeders which are quite durable.

What makes this list stronger than 4th edition is there is no teleport scatter and no templates. We used to have to teleport in a blob and heavy plasma/demolisher cannons etc used to love blobbed up terminators but no more


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

I was running one Deathwing Squad with Assault Cannon and four Storm Bolters along with a squad of Deathwing Knights. I am now trying out two Deathwing Squads each with a single TH/SS for the reason you gave as the Sgt and then an Assault Cannon plus Storm Bolters. I have not tried out the Lightning Claws this edition but I have a squad ready. One weapon I might try again in the Cyclone launcher. I am finding the Assault Cannon a little "meh" and will try out the more heavy hitting missile launcher soon.

With the storm bolters putting out heaps of fire (4/model within 12") I am thinking that the cyclone is good (but expensive) but also looking at the plasma cannon for anti 2 would infantry and some anti-vehicle (especially with RR1's)

 MangoMadness wrote:

Its handy with the extra attack on the sgt but the sgt gets a PS which shaves 8 points off the squad, doesnt seem like much but it all helps keep an expensive squad cheaper.

What makes this list stronger than 4th edition is there is no teleport scatter and no templates. We used to have to teleport in a blob and heavy plasma/demolisher cannons etc used to love blobbed up terminators but no more

What are your guys thoughts on the Fellblade?

Approx, 700 points (2x Quad Lascannon, Fellblade Accelerator Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter and Crushing Tracks). T9, 26W SV2+. Move and shoot without penalty to heavy weapons and can leave combat and still shoot!

With Azrael giving it a 4+ Invul and re-rolling hits it not only going to stick around its also going to dish out the pain.

Gibs55 wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on the Fellblade?

Approx, 700 points (2x Quad Lascannon, Fellblade Accelerator Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter and Crushing Tracks). T9, 26W SV2+. Move and shoot without penalty to heavy weapons and can leave combat and still shoot!

With Azrael giving it a 4+ Invul and re-rolling hits it not only going to stick around its also going to dish out the pain.

Is the felblade an imperial guard tank? oh sorry, astra militarum... If so, it wouldn't benefit from azreal's re-rolls. Though at 700 points, plus the near 200 for azreal, your at 900 in 2 model's, that doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

bobafett012 wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on the Fellblade?

Approx, 700 points (2x Quad Lascannon, Fellblade Accelerator Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter and Crushing Tracks). T9, 26W SV2+. Move and shoot without penalty to heavy weapons and can leave combat and still shoot!

With Azrael giving it a 4+ Invul and re-rolling hits it not only going to stick around its also going to dish out the pain.

Is the felblade an imperial guard tank? oh sorry, astra militarum... If so, it wouldn't benefit from azreal's re-rolls. Though at 700 points, plus the near 200 for azreal, your at 900 in 2 model's, that doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

Imperium, Adeptus Astartes <CHAPTER> so if would benefit?

Lost of people run triple Predators which are in the same ball park points wise. At T9 and a 2+ this is possibly more durable and also helps you get first turn. Not to mention it can split fire all weapons and shoot every turn. Vehciles are not good for securing objectives so is having more an advantage?

The list I was thinking of included:

Azrael
Belial

Intercessor Squad
Intercessor Squad
Intercessor Squad

Deathwing Terminators
Deathwing Terminators
Deathwing Terminators

Fellbade

Deploy: Azrael, Intercessors and Fellblade (5)
Reserves: Belial, Terminators (4)

bobafett012 wrote:

Keeping power swords to make squads cheaper i don't think is going to do much. 32-40 points for 4-5 squads and the swords at str 4 is just a pointless weapon for DA. I ALWAYS kill the serg first, he has no purpose in Deathwing squads unfortunately. LD doesn't matter to them, and fists are much better than the sword, but if I had a hammer on him, now the PF/SB terms soak non high AP weapons, and serg soaks high AP stuff and hopefully lives to get into assault

Fair call but until we get our own codex we have to use the premium points in the index for power fists dont we?

bobafett012 wrote:
4th was probably the last edition terminators were actually viable but for different reasons then you mentioned. It was mainly because you could run dual heavy weapons in the squad.

That might have been 3rd, my 4th army didnt have duals (i doubt i would have missed it at the time )

bobafett012 wrote:
With the storm bolters putting out heaps of fire (4/model within 12") I am thinking that the cyclone is good (but expensive) but also looking at the plasma cannon for anti 2 would infantry and some anti-vehicle (especially with RR1's)

I think the plasma cannon is a very good option, I think it adds more versatilty at the same price as the AC especially with the rerolls.

 MangoMadness wrote:


Fair call but until we get our own codex we have to use the premium points in the index for power fists dont we?

That's what i thought at first but the more I asked around at the shop and seen posts on Dakka, i was convinced otherwise. I posted on GWs facebook page to see if i could get an answer as that's where we were told to go to get question's answered but of course no answers to most if not all of the questions people have posted other than in FAQs.

 MangoMadness wrote:

That might have been 3rd, my 4th army didnt have duals (i doubt i would have missed it at the time )

http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/ac-or-cyclone.htm#.WYrGWRXyuUl

It was definitely 4th, because I started in 2nd, skipped 3rd because of the drastic changes being made, and came back in 4th. Scroll down to history of the assault cannon.

 MangoMadness wrote:

I think the plasma cannon is a very good option, I think it adds more versatilty at the same price as the AC especially with the rerolls.

guaranteed 6 shots vs an average of 2 shots i think is just too much. many of these D3 and D6 weapons out there probably needed a +1 along with them, otherwise they are just to inconsistent to count on.

bobafett012 wrote:

 MangoMadness wrote:

That might have been 3rd, my 4th army didnt have duals (i doubt i would have missed it at the time )

http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/ac-or-cyclone.htm#.WYrGWRXyuUl

It was definitely 4th, because I started in 2nd, skipped 3rd because of the drastic changes being made, and came back in 4th. Scroll down to history of the assault cannon.

Just went through the old codex, yep Smurfs could have 2 heavies buy Deathwing could only have 1 but DW had other advantages.

 MangoMadness wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 MangoMadness wrote:

That might have been 3rd, my 4th army didnt have duals (i doubt i would have missed it at the time )

http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/ac-or-cyclone.htm#.WYrGWRXyuUl

It was definitely 4th, because I started in 2nd, skipped 3rd because of the drastic changes being made, and came back in 4th. Scroll down to history of the assault cannon.

Just went through the old codex, yep Smurfs could have 2 heavies buy Deathwing could only have 1 but DW had other advantages.

incorrect. I'm literally looking at the codex that was playable through almost all of 2nd edition through almost all of 4th edition. It was the same book. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(3rd_Edition) The original Dark angels codex was Angels of death and was dark angels plus blood angels. that book ran through 1st edition and the first year of 2nd edition. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Angels_of_Death_(2nd_Edition) I came in just after this book went out. 3rd edition of 40k released in 1998, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_3rd_Edition_Rulebook . The codex your referring to, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(4th_Edition) , didn't come out till 2007. notice when 5th edition came out? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_5th_Edition_Rulebook ,2008. So that book was good for 1 year of the 4 that 4th was out.

This codex, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(3rd_Edition) , which was used for almost all of 2nd, all of 3rd, and most of 4th, was the codex that allowed 2 heavy weapons per squad. That changed with the codex your talking about, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(4th_Edition) , which ran through the last year of 4th, and all of 5th edition, it was basically, the 5th edition codex because the next DA codex that came out was the 6th edition codex, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(6th_Edition) , and it came out 1 year after 6th edition released, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_6th_Edition_Rulebook.

So for almost 3 full editions, the Deathwing Terminators could run dual heavy weapons, just as the site I linked to you said, and they were very potent.


PS I've no idea why the last parentheses isn't part of the link, so just add that into the address and all the links work.

bobafett012 wrote:

This codex, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Dark_Angels_(3rd_Edition) , which was used for almost all of 2nd, all of 3rd, and most of 4th, was the codex that allowed 2 heavy weapons per squad.

WTF are you talking about?

3rd edition codex was used for almost all of 2nd edition??????

bobafett012 wrote:
The original Dark angels codex was Angels of death and was dark angels plus blood angels. that book ran through 1st edition and the first year of 2nd edition.

Wrong, 1st edition was Rogue trader, The second edition Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook was published in 1993, The Codex: Angels of Death is an expansion book for the Games Workshop Table Top game Warhammer 40,000. This book was published for the first time in 1996.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000_(2nd_Edition)
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Angels_of_Death_(2nd_Edition)

So no, they did not run dual heavies for 3 editions, they ran them for 1 1/2 editions (most of 3rd and half of 4th) and as for being 'very potent' that is debateable, 3rd edition in my part of the world was ruled by STR6 AP2 3 shot starcannons which ripped marines and terminators to shreds especially when backed up by an avatar and 2-3 T8 3 wound wraithlords.

Do you recall how terminators in 3rd ed were errata'd in a WD to give them a 5++ save because they were so rubbish? Even a 5++ save didnt make them much better in a star cannon playing environment.

But your local environment might have been different, we were all very tournament orientated.

Why are we arguing over what was? The only thing that matters is what is now! We don't want an Interrogator Chaplain to come in and straighten this mess out...

 MangoMadness wrote:
[

no point in arguing anymore, i played it, i lived it, i've linked every page with dates, and I own every dark angels codex except the angels of death codex and the 7th edition codex as 6th was the last edition I played before 8th. There's no more I can say.

You might be right about them not being as potent as I remember though, I've never been a waac/competitive player, and the areas I played in might not have been either, and so they may have just seemed much more powerful than they really were. I do remember tabling many opponents though, Tyranids, deathguard, IG tank platoons, demons. Eldar were definitely my worst opponent to play. 2nd edition they had those damn blind missiles which was a real pain for my cyclones, and then star cannons, and prism cannons sucked too. I do think dual heavy weapons would be pretty powerful these days on our Deathwing, but it's all good, i'm having a good time with them as it is, won quite afew games I didn't think i had any business winning and probably wouldn't have in 5th, 6th, and probably 7th edition. I believe Deathwatch can actually take 3 heavy weapons per squad, but they are already more expensive than regular terms, plus you lose the special ammunition ability so it's probably not worth running.

MangoMadness has it right. Angels of Death was 2nd Edition. Released in 1996 it was fantastic, Deathwing squads that you could mix and match weapons on, Ravenwing with a -1 to be shot at due to jink, and terminators saving on a 3+ on 2D6. They laughed off bolter fire back then, Azreal also had his 4+ shield bearer back then. Nothing like Azreal surrounded by Deathwing terminators and a Dreadnought walking across the board with a 3+ on 2D6 and then an invul 4+, both of which you got to take.

3rd Edition came out 2 years later and the 3rd Edition codex the next year. The Angels of Death codex was *NOT* used in 3rd Edition though as the game changed entirely and there was absolutely no hope of compatibility.

What you are thinking about bobafett012 is the time between our codex in 3rd edition (1999) to the time of our next codex (2007, 8 years later) during which we started in 3rd edition but then ended up in 4th edition (2004). That was the longest gap we've ever had between codexes and 3rd and 4th additions were close enough rule wise that the codex worked for both. Plasma Cannons were *MEAN* in 4.5 edition though. You placed one template, which did not need to be centered on a model and then multiplied the number of models covered by the number of the template weapon you had, Dev squad of 4 plasma cannons could easily hit 12+ models in a unit.

Well thanks for that walk down memory lane.

Gibs55, I think the Fellblade may be a decent option but I I have two concerns over it vs the 3 predators, what does it's damage chart look like? The Preds may be able to maintain a higher level of accurate fire for longer due to being 3 different vehicles. Also as I think large LOS blocking terrain is going to become the standard for 8th, being able to spread your Predators out a bit (even if they will lose the 4+) may be more advantagous than having the single Fellblade, which your opponent could potentially shield a large portion of their force from. Also does the FellBlade have that Banblade rule where you can fall back and still fire? If not I think the three Preds may be better as it would be harder to tie them all up.

Can DA take non-Primaris Lieutenants?

I just played in a tournament earlier today, so I thought I might post an after-action report here in case anyone finds it enlightening or at least fun to read. The points level was 2000 points, and we were using ITC missions and rules. I was running the exact list that I posted here Here's a quick summary of how the games went.

Game 1 was The Relic, and my opponent was running Tyranids with Genestealer Cult. His list had a Malanthrope as his Warlord, 3 units of Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons, 2 units of Biovores, a 20-strong unit of Termagants, 2 GSC Patriarchs, a Primus, a Magus, and 3 units of Purestrain Genestealers (2 with 16 and 1 with 20 models). I set up my models with my Devastators and Tacticals screening the rest of my army as best they could, which turned out not to be good enough. I got as many of my vehicles and stuff next to the power trio of Azrael, PrimeLT, and Darkshroud, and although I did not get first turn I actually siezed. I still failed to kill very much on my first turn, bagging 3 Hive Guard from 2 different units. My opponent Cult Ambushed 2 of his Stealer blobs (the 16 model ones), along with the Patriarchs and got 5's on the Ambush table for both of them. The Magus got a 1 on the table and had to walk on from his board edge, meaning he did exactly jack squat the whole game. The Stealers killed my Devastators and managed to lock 2 of my Razorbacks in combat without actually hurting them. They fell back and the Land Raider turned one unit of Stealers into mulch, with the help of my other Razorback. Unfortunately it wasn't enough, because the Hive Guard managed to down the Darkshroud after having finished the Nephilim the turn before (with some Smite help from the Patriarchs) and he was wearing down my Dreadnoughts with the Biovores. So many mortal wounds. He then ambushed the 20 Stealerbugs with the Primus and got another 5 on the Ambush table, thus managing to lock down basically all of my vehicles and killing my tactical squad. I let Azrael and the Dreadnoughts join the fun, and together managed to, by the end of the game, drop all of the Genestealers, the Patriarchs, and the Primus. Unfortunately, it held me back deep in my backfield for too long, and the Termagants got well away with the relic before I could come roaring out of my corner and bring the fight to them. The game ended on turn 5, which resulted in me scoring a big fat zero on the devastating defeat. Azrael did good work in close combat, killing both Patriarchs on separate turns with his sword. He's a monster, but really too valuable to risk that way. I really lost because I rolled crap on the maelstrom table for the mission. If I had rolled better objectives I could have perhaps at least lost with a little dignity instead of taking a zero for points.

Game 2 was the kill point mission. My opponent was running Astra Militarum, with Pask in a Demolisher, a regular Tank Commander in a Punisher, 3 Wyverns, 1 Earthshaker cannon, a Manticore, a Master of Ordnance, 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, a 20-man Conscript squad, a 10-man Guardsman squad, and a Shadowsword. My opponent went first and I failed to seize, resulting in me losing both of my Devastator squads (4 of my 10 valuable Lascannons) and my Darkshroud. I did reciprocate by killing the Guardsman squad and Pask, though, netting me First Strike and Slay the Warlord. Most of the game was me killing a couple of his tanks and all of his foot infantry and me slowly being obliterated by mainly that damn Shadowsword and its Volcano Cannon. The Land Raider had the Tactical squad inside it and exploded in Azrael's face, giving him 3 mortal wounds (ouch!). Those Tacticals all survived the explosion, and after that shooting phase they lost all but the sergeant to both shooting and a bad morale phase. That sergeant was a hero by denying my opponent a Maelstrom point on my turn, though. By turn 5 I decided that my only hope was to not get tabled because I was ahead on Maelstrom points. I had a Razorback, the Lieutenant, and Azrael left and they ran behind some ruins to get away from most of the enemy fire. The Razorback didn't make it, but Azrael and the Lieutenant did, and luckily the game ended after turn 6 with me winning the Maelstrom part, my opponent winning the Killpoints part, and we each had 2 specials (both had First Strike, I had Slay the Warlord, he had King of the Hill). So, it was a draw with me only having 2 plucky survivors keeping me from being tabled.

Game 3 was The Scouring, and I faced a Tau list. It had a Commander (2 Burst, 1 Missile pod), 3 12-man Strike Teams, a Fireblade, 2 10-man Pathfinder teams with 3 Rail Rifles, 3 Rail Rifle Broadsides, and 2 Riptides with Heavy Burst Cannons and Smart Missiles. I went second again, but my opponent only managed to kill one of the Devastator Squads and take a couple of wounds off of the Darkshroud. That thing really frustrated my opponent the whole game, with that -1 To Hit just killing his shooting. Of course I had a lot of my stuff within its bubble, so my opponent wisely decided that it had to go, he just didn't get it done (it survived the game). I proceeded to take my opponent's list apart piece by piece, with me getting Slay the Warlord with my Nephilim on the final turn (we actually only made it to turn 3 because of a couple of lengthy rules clarifications ). I scored the maximum 19 points for the game, so a great victory for the Sons of the Lion! Actually it really came down to him having just godawful luck with his dice, and my dice were incredibly hot (I could not fail a 4+ invulnerable save with Azrael!).

My takeaways:
Azrael is and always has been a beast in 8th edition. Those rerolls to hit are absolutely clutch in many cases, and the 4++ he gives keeps your vehicles alive far longer than they would be otherwise. Not so great for infantry since it is a per model and doesn't confer to the whole unit if they are outside of it. Plus he gives a command point just for showing up!
The Darkshroud is another must take unit for me from now on. It is a great way to increase the survivability of your units and can draw a lot of fire itself before it dies. Of course if its luck runs out because of failed Azrael saves...
The Nephilim did good work for me in game 3, but was somewhat lackluster otherwise. I think the Dark Talon is probably better at the same job, although even if I'd had one I'm not sure it would have helped in the other two games. It became a bullseye with wings in those games and did not hold up to concerted enemy fire, and of course Smite really hurts it with only 10 wounds. That being said, it's not a bad choice, but perhaps better with the Lascannons as an anti-vehicle platform (leaving anti-infantry to the Dark Talon).
The Land Raider Crusader was probably the worst thing in my list, although it really put on the hurt in game 3 with all those shots. It's a huge point sink (314 points the way I ran it) and if it gets locked in combat it just sits there like a bump on a log, albeit a very durable one. I'd have been better served by a Dark Talon and a third Assault Cannon Razorback, but alas I don't currently have those models (working on the Dark Talon though!). It does have certain psychological impact, as two of my opponents didn't even really bother trying to kill it thinking it would be a waste of shots.
I think a core component of all of my competitive Dark Angels lists will be Azrael+PrimeLT+Darkshroud. That stack of buffs is a massive force and durability multiplier and can win games. Just watch out for psykers.

While I was at the FLGS I picked myself up a Repulsor, so I can't wait to get it built and painted and try it out in some games!

Cool!

I'm working on converting my effectively useless land speeder storm into a Darkshroud now, I keep hearing good things. It's like a bubble of kind-of Raven Guard chapter tactics. Who else gets a vehicle with such a neat little aura.

May have to reconsider my DW focused list too, Azreal & company seem soooo useful. I really like combining Asmodai and a DW ancient for ridiculously numerous power fist attacks, but you can't take those, Belial, AND Azreal... Well I'll make em all eventually.

I'm seriously considering backing off on the knights and sticking to aura-enhanced DWT for teleport maneuvers. Dropping the knights means I don't *need* a land raider and I could fit in a Repulsor or a razorback trio or at least a couple of dreads to chill with Azreal...

Hmm time to draw up some more lists!

 GrimDork wrote:
Cool!

I'm working on converting my effectively useless land speeder storm into a Darkshroud now, I keep hearing good things. It's like a bubble of kind-of Raven Guard chapter tactics. Who else gets a vehicle with such a neat little aura.

May have to reconsider my DW focused list too, Azreal & company seem soooo useful. I really like combining Asmodai and a DW ancient for ridiculously numerous power fist attacks, but you can't take those, Belial, AND Azreal... Well I'll make em all eventually.

I'm seriously considering backing off on the knights and sticking to aura-enhanced DWT for teleport maneuvers. Dropping the knights means I don't *need* a land raider and I could fit in a Repulsor or a razorback trio or at least a couple of dreads to chill with Azreal...

Hmm time to draw up some more lists!

Deathwing are nice, but I'm not as impressed by them until I'm sure we get the nice price drop on power fists like vanilla SM got. I have yet to get a straight answer on that, and I even asked about it on GW's Facebook page.

Looking at my list and having now looked at the Repulsor in Battlescribe with all those weapons, I'm thinking the same list I ran would have been so much better with a Repulsor instead of a Land Raider. The Repulsor can just fly out of combat and still shoot its weapons, where a Land Raider cannot. The fragstorm launchers on the Repulsor are a decent analog of the Hurricane Bolters on the LR Crusader, but shorter ranged and much more swingy. Indeed, the Repulsor can be tailored to nearly any list with all of its myriad weapon options. Which means I'd better get ready to install a LOT of magnets on mine...

That's a good idea..need to put in an order myself.

Chaos seems to have gotten cheaper fists so I'd say that's extra hope for us.

What kind of loadout would be ideal for a Prime LT?

I pretty much always take the Auto Bolt Rifle for the Lieutenant, as I don't want him to be in combat because that's not his purpose. If I were to run him with a CC-oriented unit like Reivers or something I might give him the power sword instead because he does get lots of attacks. Usually I keep him back with Azrael to have reroll abilities to rival even Roboute Guilliman's.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just played in a tournament earlier today, so I thought I might post an after-action report here in case anyone finds it enlightening or at least fun to read. The points level was 2000 points, and we were using ITC missions and rules. I was running the exact list that I posted here Here's a quick summary of how the games went.

Game 1 was The Relic, and my opponent was running Tyranids with Genestealer Cult. His list had a Malanthrope as his Warlord, 3 units of Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons, 2 units of Biovores, a 20-strong unit of Termagants, 2 GSC Patriarchs, a Primus, a Magus, and 3 units of Purestrain Genestealers (2 with 16 and 1 with 20 models). I set up my models with my Devastators and Tacticals screening the rest of my army as best they could, which turned out not to be good enough. I got as many of my vehicles and stuff next to the power trio of Azrael, PrimeLT, and Darkshroud, and although I did not get first turn I actually siezed. I still failed to kill very much on my first turn, bagging 3 Hive Guard from 2 different units. My opponent Cult Ambushed 2 of his Stealer blobs (the 16 model ones), along with the Patriarchs and got 5's on the Ambush table for both of them. The Magus got a 1 on the table and had to walk on from his board edge, meaning he did exactly jack squat the whole game. The Stealers killed my Devastators and managed to lock 2 of my Razorbacks in combat without actually hurting them. They fell back and the Land Raider turned one unit of Stealers into mulch, with the help of my other Razorback. Unfortunately it wasn't enough, because the Hive Guard managed to down the Darkshroud after having finished the Nephilim the turn before (with some Smite help from the Patriarchs) and he was wearing down my Dreadnoughts with the Biovores. So many mortal wounds. He then ambushed the 20 Stealerbugs with the Primus and got another 5 on the Ambush table, thus managing to lock down basically all of my vehicles and killing my tactical squad. I let Azrael and the Dreadnoughts join the fun, and together managed to, by the end of the game, drop all of the Genestealers, the Patriarchs, and the Primus. Unfortunately, it held me back deep in my backfield for too long, and the Termagants got well away with the relic before I could come roaring out of my corner and bring the fight to them. The game ended on turn 5, which resulted in me scoring a big fat zero on the devastating defeat. Azrael did good work in close combat, killing both Patriarchs on separate turns with his sword. He's a monster, but really too valuable to risk that way. I really lost because I rolled crap on the maelstrom table for the mission. If I had rolled better objectives I could have perhaps at least lost with a little dignity instead of taking a zero for points.

Game 2 was the kill point mission. My opponent was running Astra Militarum, with Pask in a Demolisher, a regular Tank Commander in a Punisher, 3 Wyverns, 1 Earthshaker cannon, a Manticore, a Master of Ordnance, 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, a 20-man Conscript squad, a 10-man Guardsman squad, and a Shadowsword. My opponent went first and I failed to seize, resulting in me losing both of my Devastator squads (4 of my 10 valuable Lascannons) and my Darkshroud. I did reciprocate by killing the Guardsman squad and Pask, though, netting me First Strike and Slay the Warlord. Most of the game was me killing a couple of his tanks and all of his foot infantry and me slowly being obliterated by mainly that damn Shadowsword and its Volcano Cannon. The Land Raider had the Tactical squad inside it and exploded in Azrael's face, giving him 3 mortal wounds (ouch!). Those Tacticals all survived the explosion, and after that shooting phase they lost all but the sergeant to both shooting and a bad morale phase. That sergeant was a hero by denying my opponent a Maelstrom point on my turn, though. By turn 5 I decided that my only hope was to not get tabled because I was ahead on Maelstrom points. I had a Razorback, the Lieutenant, and Azrael left and they ran behind some ruins to get away from most of the enemy fire. The Razorback didn't make it, but Azrael and the Lieutenant did, and luckily the game ended after turn 6 with me winning the Maelstrom part, my opponent winning the Killpoints part, and we each had 2 specials (both had First Strike, I had Slay the Warlord, he had King of the Hill). So, it was a draw with me only having 2 plucky survivors keeping me from being tabled.

Game 3 was The Scouring, and I faced a Tau list. It had a Commander (2 Burst, 1 Missile pod), 3 12-man Strike Teams, a Fireblade, 2 10-man Pathfinder teams with 3 Rail Rifles, 3 Rail Rifle Broadsides, and 2 Riptides with Heavy Burst Cannons and Smart Missiles. I went second again, but my opponent only managed to kill one of the Devastator Squads and take a couple of wounds off of the Darkshroud. That thing really frustrated my opponent the whole game, with that -1 To Hit just killing his shooting. Of course I had a lot of my stuff within its bubble, so my opponent wisely decided that it had to go, he just didn't get it done (it survived the game). I proceeded to take my opponent's list apart piece by piece, with me getting Slay the Warlord with my Nephilim on the final turn (we actually only made it to turn 3 because of a couple of lengthy rules clarifications ). I scored the maximum 19 points for the game, so a great victory for the Sons of the Lion! Actually it really came down to him having just godawful luck with his dice, and my dice were incredibly hot (I could not fail a 4+ invulnerable save with Azrael!).

My takeaways:
Azrael is and always has been a beast in 8th edition. Those rerolls to hit are absolutely clutch in many cases, and the 4++ he gives keeps your vehicles alive far longer than they would be otherwise. Not so great for infantry since it is a per model and doesn't confer to the whole unit if they are outside of it. Plus he gives a command point just for showing up!
The Darkshroud is another must take unit for me from now on. It is a great way to increase the survivability of your units and can draw a lot of fire itself before it dies. Of course if its luck runs out because of failed Azrael saves...
The Nephilim did good work for me in game 3, but was somewhat lackluster otherwise. I think the Dark Talon is probably better at the same job, although even if I'd had one I'm not sure it would have helped in the other two games. It became a bullseye with wings in those games and did not hold up to concerted enemy fire, and of course Smite really hurts it with only 10 wounds. That being said, it's not a bad choice, but perhaps better with the Lascannons as an anti-vehicle platform (leaving anti-infantry to the Dark Talon).
The Land Raider Crusader was probably the worst thing in my list, although it really put on the hurt in game 3 with all those shots. It's a huge point sink (314 points the way I ran it) and if it gets locked in combat it just sits there like a bump on a log, albeit a very durable one. I'd have been better served by a Dark Talon and a third Assault Cannon Razorback, but alas I don't currently have those models (working on the Dark Talon though!). It does have certain psychological impact, as two of my opponents didn't even really bother trying to kill it thinking it would be a waste of shots.
I think a core component of all of my competitive Dark Angels lists will be Azrael+PrimeLT+Darkshroud. That stack of buffs is a massive force and durability multiplier and can win games. Just watch out for psykers.

While I was at the FLGS I picked myself up a Repulsor, so I can't wait to get it built and painted and try it out in some games!

Your match ups kindve hightlight why i made some changes to my recent list. I was coming across alot of smite spammy lists -- mostly out of chaos but fearing the same from trynids. So i started running Ezekiel and a Culexus. Ezekiel is probably a bit overkill but he's pretty good this edition. They are both decent combat units and more importantly can really shut down enemy psyker phases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I pretty much always take the Auto Bolt Rifle for the Lieutenant, as I don't want him to be in combat because that's not his purpose. If I were to run him with a CC-oriented unit like Reivers or something I might give him the power sword instead because he does get lots of attacks. Usually I keep him back with Azrael to have reroll abilities to rival even Roboute Guilliman's.

I have always taken the opposite. I dont see his bolter as doing that much work so ive come to rely on him for combat aid when the line gets broken. If a unit breaks through, him, Azrael and two ven dreads usually put them to sleep.

Widied wrote:
Your match ups kindve hightlight why i made some changes to my recent list. I was coming across alot of smite spammy lists -- mostly out of chaos but fearing the same from trynids. So i started running Ezekiel and a Culexus. Ezekiel is probably a bit overkill but he's pretty good this edition. They are both decent combat units and more importantly can really shut down enemy psyker phases.

Only the one list had psykers in it; the others did not. Smite spam was the least of my worries that day, although at least a couple of the other players had lots of Malefic Lords. I'm not sure even Ezekiel or the Culexus could have kept up with those lists. *shudder*

That said, I've run Ezekiel before and he is very, very good, both for denying psychic powers and throwing around a couple of his own. Plus he's pretty mean in combat as well. I have yet to try a Culexus Assassin; the only Assassin I've tried is the Vindicare, and I did like him.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I pretty much always take the Auto Bolt Rifle for the Lieutenant, as I don't want him to be in combat because that's not his purpose. If I were to run him with a CC-oriented unit like Reivers or something I might give him the power sword instead because he does get lots of attacks. Usually I keep him back with Azrael to have reroll abilities to rival even Roboute Guilliman's.

I have always taken the opposite. I dont see his bolter as doing that much work so ive come to rely on him for combat aid when the line gets broken. If a unit breaks through, him, Azrael and two ven dreads usually put them to sleep.

I figure if the enemy is bringing the fight to the core of my force things have gotten very dire indeed. Whereas the bolt rifle allows the Lieutenant to harass something even at longer ranges. Came in handy to swat a few spore mines that those Biovores landed near my characters and Dreadnoughts. Also, I figure Azrael and the Dreadnoughts can take care of most things that break through without the Lieutenant needing a power sword. He punches okay without it, anyways.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Widied wrote:
Your match ups kindve hightlight why i made some changes to my recent list. I was coming across alot of smite spammy lists -- mostly out of chaos but fearing the same from trynids. So i started running Ezekiel and a Culexus. Ezekiel is probably a bit overkill but he's pretty good this edition. They are both decent combat units and more importantly can really shut down enemy psyker phases.

Only the one list had psykers in it; the others did not. Smite spam was the least of my worries that day, although at least a couple of the other players had lots of Malefic Lords. I'm not sure even Ezekiel or the Culexus could have kept up with those lists. *shudder*

That said, I've run Ezekiel before and he is very, very good, both for denying psychic powers and throwing around a couple of his own. Plus he's pretty mean in combat as well. I have yet to try a Culexus Assassin; the only Assassin I've tried is the Vindicare, and I did like him.

Yeah. Fair enough. We have a Chaos heavy meta at the moment so psyker defense is definitely needed. Though I'm not sure if Ezekiel is necessarily worth it. Though no matter how I tend to tech my list, he's only ever 20 or so points higher than whatever libby I come up with. That never seems not worth it... the Culexus in theory with a LIbby does create a gap of +3. I will likely try it next. We've been doing an escalation league so 2000 points is next and I'll have some points to include him.

What are your thoughts about the dark vengeance for a starting point in 8th? Am I better off just better getting DI? How do the two sets compliment each other?

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
What are your thoughts about the dark vengeance for a starting point in 8th? Am I better off just better getting DI? How do the two sets compliment each other?

you should really buy what you think looks cool and fits your play style. Everything will change once we get our codex.

If you want to be competitive today, buy Azreal and a bunch of dreadnaughts with gunz.

I converted Azrael from the company master from Dark Vengeance because he looks better and the pose is nicer. The librarian model is nice too. DV is a great starter set for DA.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Widied wrote:
Your match ups kindve hightlight why i made some changes to my recent list. I was coming across alot of smite spammy lists -- mostly out of chaos but fearing the same from trynids. So i started running Ezekiel and a Culexus. Ezekiel is probably a bit overkill but he's pretty good this edition. They are both decent combat units and more importantly can really shut down enemy psyker phases.

Only the one list had psykers in it; the others did not. Smite spam was the least of my worries that day, although at least a couple of the other players had lots of Malefic Lords. I'm not sure even Ezekiel or the Culexus could have kept up with those lists. *shudder*

That said, I've run Ezekiel before and he is very, very good, both for denying psychic powers and throwing around a couple of his own. Plus he's pretty mean in combat as well. I have yet to try a Culexus Assassin; the only Assassin I've tried is the Vindicare, and I did like him.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I pretty much always take the Auto Bolt Rifle for the Lieutenant, as I don't want him to be in combat because that's not his purpose. If I were to run him with a CC-oriented unit like Reivers or something I might give him the power sword instead because he does get lots of attacks. Usually I keep him back with Azrael to have reroll abilities to rival even Roboute Guilliman's.

I have always taken the opposite. I dont see his bolter as doing that much work so ive come to rely on him for combat aid when the line gets broken. If a unit breaks through, him, Azrael and two ven dreads usually put them to sleep.

I figure if the enemy is bringing the fight to the core of my force things have gotten very dire indeed. Whereas the bolt rifle allows the Lieutenant to harass something even at longer ranges. Came in handy to swat a few spore mines that those Biovores landed near my characters and Dreadnoughts. Also, I figure Azrael and the Dreadnoughts can take care of most things that break through without the Lieutenant needing a power sword. He punches okay without it, anyways.

My go to here lately for HQ choices has been Ezekiel, Primaris LT w/ps, and Azrael for when the line gets broken through. I was debating changing it like ZergSmasher has but played a game against nids where I had a 20 stealers and a Patriarch pop up 9" from my screening razorback. The stealers charged the razorback with w/asscan and failed to kill it. On my turn it fell back and I moved Ezekiel, a tac squad, and the Primaris LT up. I cast smite and mind worm on the stealers so i could be sure all my units went first and then shot them with the tac squad, ezekiel and the hb from my darkshroud. After that ezekiel, Prim LT, and tac squad charged in and mopped up. I think If I hadn't been set up so well they would have been in my gun line their next turn which would have been really bad. It's also nice having Ezekiel back to smite stuff like Ghazzy. He came charging across the board my last game and I literally just sat back with ezekiel casting smite and mind worm until he died. Ghazzy only managed to kill an Interrogator-Chaplain and a few tac marines. That combo has just been to game saving to break up for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said having the Bolt Rifle on the Prim LT is still a viable option imo just because as much as i've relied on his ps, there's been many games he didn't do anything but buff (which is fine). But I also only have 1 dread for the moment so I have to get my cc where I can for right now.

Yeah... that's been my experience as of late to be honest. And I'm considering swapping out in the next phase of my league.

So, would this work for a Deathwing List at 2k (1997):

Vanguard Detachment
Belial
Deathwing Ancient, Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
Deathwing Knights, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher

Vanguard Deatchment
Azrael
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon

 infinite_array wrote:
So, would this work for a Deathwing List at 2k (1997):

Vanguard Detachment
Belial
Deathwing Ancient, Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
Deathwing Knights, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher
Deathwing Terminators, Power Sword, Chain Fist, Assault Cannon, Watcher

Vanguard Deatchment
Azrael
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought, Lascannon, Twin Autocannon

Yup. That's almost the exact list I've ran a few times now and it's been super successful. The venerable dreads plus Azreal is very powerful. The only difference in our lists is that I ran 2 apothecarys, but I was finding them very hit or miss, so I was going to swap in the ancient for the 2 apothecarys next game.

Although, I'm also strongly considering dropping the knights and going with another Deathwing squad instead. They are slow, DS charge is extremely unreliable, and they end up getting kited around many games not doing much.

I've also been running 2 nephilims and a Dark talon in place of the 3 dreads and the added mobility is huge for a Deathwing army.