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 Stus67 wrote:
Shouldn't the FAQ be coming out soon?

If I had to guess, it will come out on the 25th, given that Harlequins came out two weeks before the Imperial Knights came out and their FAQ came out on the 11th.

What about doing something like this.

Armigers count towards a lance and can generate CP if in a detachment with a Dominus or Questoris Class knight on a 1 to 1 ratio. Or 1 Preceptor for every 2 Armigers.

Stops them from being spammed but makes them useable to finish a lance instead of being required to take 3 Questoris/Dominus.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Offensively the Stormtalon puts out more damage at range via Strafing run and 18 more inches of range on the lascannons but only 6" less on the twin asscans. More average to hit roll will be made and will hit even at half wounds.

Survivability on the other hand... It has a 16.666% less chance of being hit so long as you do not hover, but you are wounded easier by Str 6 and 7 weapons(16.666% more on str 6, 33.3333% more on str 7) so any Autocannon that hits is more likely to damage.

They both have similar roles(tank busting and some light chaff removal), but do so at vastly different ranges(up to 48 for tank busting on talon, 15" to melee really on warglaive. Then 24" for chaff removal on talon and only melee for warglaive).

The warglaive can stand up better in a fight with the same basic Save bit a 5++ to ranged as well as the much higher toughness, but the talon is hard to hit when not hovering and cannot be charged.

That's kind of where I'm at. They both have advantages and disadvantages and I'm trying to build an all comers list so I don't have any specific army in mind. It seems to me that the Talon is a little better on the offense and the Armiger better on the defensive end of things. It's a difference of 25 points or so and I don't know if the Talon can make up that difference over the course of a game. The talon does have one more advantage offensively in that it can benefit from the reroll 1's aura on occasion but there's nothing that I know of that does the same for the Armiger without costing an additional 400+ pts (the Preceptor which isn't even available yet).

I like the idea of a mini MORTAN helverin detachment with just 3 of them (or even just 1 and ignore the household thing). While one of them is alive, you can threaten to IGNORE_MODIFIERS and REROLL_VERSUS_FLY for 2CP. That is some hilarious anti flier in a cheap package. The helverins also hide out of LOS better than a flyer can, and can readily move out of LOS to put their 60" range into play.

 TheMostWize wrote:
What about doing something like this.

Armigers count towards a lance and can generate CP if in a detachment with a Dominus or Questoris Class knight on a 1 to 1 ratio. Or 1 Preceptor for every 2 Armigers.

Stops them from being spammed but makes them useable to finish a lance instead of being required to take 3 Questoris/Dominus.

Still don't see what so bad about spamming armigers that costs as much as 5CP from IG alone...

Still. GW has already decided on what it is. Even if they change it in FAQ it's already settled. We just have to wait what it will be. If still want it changed if it didn't just need to bombard them and hope for CA to help.

As much as it sucks that armigers can't generate CP, at least they don't need much CP to perform. Even Duncan himself runs a guard battalion with his Griffith knight lance. GW expects you to have guard in an imperial army. This is my take on a competitive knight list that I want to run at the BAO.

TARANIS - 3x1 gallants
TALLARN - 2x commanders, 3x guardsmens, 1x3 basilisks
BLANGELS - 2x slamCaptains, 3x5 scouts

Depending on my opponent either i pour CP into the BLANGELS or the KNIGHTS. If I am up against Drukhari, might as well spend all the CP pre game for pregame buffs. If I am up against another midfield melee list, put durability stuff on the knights. If I can't possibly make a first turn knight charge, pour CP into captain smash to UWOF into their best model.

Why tallarn? Are you planning to put infantry on reserves?

I'd much prefer using a battalion of AdMech for more CP though. 3 Ranger squads, 5 men in each, and 2 Tech Priests to keep it as cheap as possible. They can camp on some objectives, use the Stygies rules for that -1 to hit.

Guard is so boring and overused in my opinion, and my Knight house is Mechanicus aligned anyhow, so it fits better for me.

It's so used because it's so good and cheap for the role which is plenty of cheap bodies for cheap. AdMech can't compare in terms of cheap bodies so you need to do bit more with them than just camp on objectives. If that's all you want to do better have more survivable IG battallion do it.

Although there is something to be said for Taranis with admech. Castellan and crusaders relics and traits for full tank and repair. Playing for Valiant last stand, Machine spirit resurgent and Our darkest hour. Knight of the cog for shroudpsalm and or benediction of the omnissiah.

It's a total contrast to getting a valiant or gallant over the table to use Noble Sacrifice and it's something i'd like to try out at some point.

I am using guard because I want the grandStrategist + veritasVitae combo. If I didn't want that combo, admech with a few onagers would also be good. I lean towards guard because they have dramatically faster troops. I like Tallarn because it lets the basilisks move into better positions and lets my infantry advance and double shoot on the same turn. Also I can hide the basilisks if I am desparate.

Has anyone mathed Grand Strategist + VeritasVitae and 1cp on a knight relic and 1cp on a warlord trait VS making the guard warlord for Grand Strategist and spending the full 6cp on court and heirlooms. it's a 7CP spend before the game but could open the doors to pure hilarity.

 Drider wrote:
Although there is something to be said for Taranis with admech. Castellan and crusaders relics and traits for full tank and repair. Playing for Valiant last stand, Machine spirit resurgent and Our darkest hour. Knight of the cog for shroudpsalm and or benediction of the omnissiah.

It's a total contrast to getting a valiant or gallant over the table to use Noble Sacrifice and it's something i'd like to try out at some point.

That is my list:
Cruasder w/stormspear and TC, warlord - trait will be rolled for. Mark of the Omnissiah.
Warden with Reaper and Icarus
Errant with Thunderstrike and stormspear.
2x Warglaives with melta

Guard support Battalion:
Co commander
Primaris psyker
3x infantry squads with heavy bolter
Techpriest Enginseer.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Drider wrote:
Although there is something to be said for Taranis with admech. Castellan and crusaders relics and traits for full tank and repair. Playing for Valiant last stand, Machine spirit resurgent and Our darkest hour. Knight of the cog for shroudpsalm and or benediction of the omnissiah.

It's a total contrast to getting a valiant or gallant over the table to use Noble Sacrifice and it's something i'd like to try out at some point.

That is my list:
Cruasder w/stormspear and TC, warlord - trait will be rolled for. Mark of the Omnissiah.
Warden with Reaper and Icarus
Errant with Thunderstrike and stormspear.
2x Warglaives with melta

Guard support Battalion:
Co commander
Primaris psyker
3x infantry squads with heavy bolter
Techpriest Enginseer.

Drop the Icarus. It is crap. You are mathematically better off with a Stormspear, if you can figure the points out. Which house are you using, by the way?

 Drider wrote:
Has anyone mathed Grand Strategist + VeritasVitae and 1cp on a knight relic and 1cp on a warlord trait VS making the guard warlord for Grand Strategist and spending the full 6cp on court and heirlooms. it's a 7CP spend before the game but could open the doors to pure hilarity.

So the way I have seen it played and the way I argue the RAW dictates, is that you can only possibly get refunds if the Commander (grand strat) or Smashcaptain (vitae) is physically deployed on the table. But all the WLT/Relic strategems happen before deployment. Since you can't possibly have either of those guys on the board at that time, you can't get any refunds on pre-game strats like that. BUT, I do think you can get refunds for things you spend during deployment (like STYGIES ifiltration) if your Commander is on the board prior to playing the strategem.

You wouldn't get refunds for the pregame spends. What i mean is

Knight warlord, 4CP pregame spend and:
1CP 5+ refund per strat you use.
1CP 5+ refund per strat your opponent uses.

Vs

Guard warlord, 7CP pregame spend and:
1CP 5+ refund per strat you use.
1CP 5+ refund per strat your opponent uses.
1CP 5+ refund per CP you spend.

Meaning there is a chance that that 1cp Rotate Ion Shield strat could potentially refund you 2CP.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Drider wrote:
Although there is something to be said for Taranis with admech. Castellan and crusaders relics and traits for full tank and repair. Playing for Valiant last stand, Machine spirit resurgent and Our darkest hour. Knight of the cog for shroudpsalm and or benediction of the omnissiah.

It's a total contrast to getting a valiant or gallant over the table to use Noble Sacrifice and it's something i'd like to try out at some point.

That is my list:
Cruasder w/stormspear and TC, warlord - trait will be rolled for. Mark of the Omnissiah.
Warden with Reaper and Icarus
Errant with Thunderstrike and stormspear.
2x Warglaives with melta

Guard support Battalion:
Co commander
Primaris psyker
3x infantry squads with heavy bolter
Techpriest Enginseer.

Drop the Icarus. It is crap. You are mathematically better off with a Stormspear, if you can figure the points out. Which house are you using, by the way?

There are enough units with Fly, and my main opponent plays all 4 Eldar so it doesn't quute suck as much for me.

Also: Taranis.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Drider wrote:
Although there is something to be said for Taranis with admech. Castellan and crusaders relics and traits for full tank and repair. Playing for Valiant last stand, Machine spirit resurgent and Our darkest hour. Knight of the cog for shroudpsalm and or benediction of the omnissiah.

It's a total contrast to getting a valiant or gallant over the table to use Noble Sacrifice and it's something i'd like to try out at some point.

That is my list:
Cruasder w/stormspear and TC, warlord - trait will be rolled for. Mark of the Omnissiah.
Warden with Reaper and Icarus
Errant with Thunderstrike and stormspear.
2x Warglaives with melta

Guard support Battalion:
Co commander
Primaris psyker
3x infantry squads with heavy bolter
Techpriest Enginseer.

Drop the Icarus. It is crap. You are mathematically better off with a Stormspear, if you can figure the points out. Which house are you using, by the way?

There are enough units with Fly, and my main opponent plays all 4 Eldar so it doesn't quute suck as much for me.

Also: Taranis.

Even in that case, a Stormspear is better, but if you don't have the points to pull it off, go with the Icarus. Taranis seems to be the go-to for a lot of people. I am kinda stuck between Hawkshroud and Taranis now. I want to do Mortan, but no transfers drives down that desire. My Knights are as follows (running alongside a SM Battalion with a PFPP Primaris Captain, Primaris Librarian, and three Intercessor Squads):

Assuming Mortan (my first choice):
Crusader with Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, and Stormspear
Warden with Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, and Stormspear
Gallant with Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Meltagun, and Ironstorm Missile Pod
Armiger Helverin with Heavy Stubber

It is more about the models I own: only 2 Renegade boxes and 1 Forgebane box.
so i only Have 2 Missile Pods and 2 Icarus Autocannons.

at any Rate with 4 Melta weapons and 2 Stormspears I should be good enough on anti-vehicle.

 Drider wrote:
You wouldn't get refunds for the pregame spends. What i mean is

Knight warlord, 4CP pregame spend and:
1CP 5+ refund per strat you use. (From BA Veritas Vitae)
1CP 5+ refund per strat your opponent uses. (From IG Aquila)

Vs

Guard warlord, 7CP pregame spend and:
1CP 5+ refund per strat you use. (From BA Veritas Vitae)
1CP 5+ refund per strat your opponent uses. (From IG Aquila)
1CP 5+ refund per CP you spend. (From IG Grand Strategist)

Meaning there is a chance that that 1cp Rotate Ion Shield strat could potentially refund you 2CP.

(As always, assuming my math is right: )

Okay lets assume you have 11CP to start with (1 IG Bat for 5 CP, 1 SH with 3 big knights for 3 more, and 3 starting CP).

How many CP your opponent has also matters. Lets say they have 9, as it makes the math a bit easier. If they have 12 then you can up the averages below by about 1-2. As the game goes on we will assume that the opponent with 9 CP will spend them on 6 stratagems. This means you get 2 CP from them over the course of the game.

If you make the IG the warlord and spend 7CP before the game starts, you are down to 4. You get 2 from your opponent over the course of the game so you have 6.

Then each time you use a strat, you get a 5+ chance to get a CP back, and another 5+ for each CP you used. So how many you get back depends on how many strats you use and how much they cost, but you get:

An average of .66 CP each time you spend 1 CP on a strat. If you only spend 1 CP on every strat, you end up getting about 10 extra CP or 16 total from this on average before running out.
An average of 1 CP pack each time you spend 2 CP on a strat. If you only spend CP on 2 CP strats, you end up doubling your CP with 6 extra on average and a total of 12.
If you use only 3 CP strats you'll get 1.3 back each time, for a [b]total average of about 10.

So with this set up (starting with 11CP and getting 2 from the opponent), the average number of CP you get to use in a game is between 16 and 10, depending on what strats you use (1 CP gets you more back on average than 2 or 3). If that isn't broken i don't know what is.

If this seems like a lot, try it your self if you want. Start with the number six in your head, and roll 2D6 over and over, subtracting 1 each time you roll, and adding 1 each time you roll a 5+. Each time you roll 2D6, you have a 66% chance to get 1 CP back, and an 11% chance of getting 2 CP back. There isn't a limit to the number of CP you can get back, and when you get lucky and get 2 CP back it puts you ahead again. I tried it with some of my dice and got to 39 total CP spent starting just with 6. I got lucky, but it really isn't unusual to get lucky a few times and get a ton of extra CP, especially on the 1 CP strats where your chances of getting the CP back is better than a coin flip, and you have the 11% chance to actually gain a CP.

If you make the IK the warlord and start with 7 CP after spending 4, you still get the 2 CP from your opponent's strats, but you only get to roll 1 dice per strat used, and not per CP used.

This means you have a 33% chance to get a CP back anytime you pop a strat of any cost, and you can never get 2 or more CP because you are only rolling 1 dice.

If you only use 1 CP strats, this ends up getting you about 4 extra CP, [b]or 13 total.
If you only use 2 CP strats, it only gets you about 1-2 extra, or 10-11 total.
If you only use 3 CP strats, it only gets you 1 free CP, or 10 total.

So as you can see, the IG warlord trait is much, much better, mainly due to the fact that you get to roll per CP used, and have the chance to actually gain CP on your rolls, and a much higher possibility for your CP to spiral out of control.

Since I did all the math for those two options, I might as well do it for just the 5+ per CP role by itself as well, if you didn't take the relic too.

Edit: I forgot there had to be BA in there as well so the initial starting CP might be different, but the general concept is still right.

 Drider wrote:
You wouldn't get refunds for the pregame spends. What i mean is

Knight warlord, 4CP pregame spend and:
1CP 5+ refund per strat you use.
1CP 5+ refund per strat your opponent uses.

Vs

Guard warlord, 7CP pregame spend and:
1CP 5+ refund per strat you use.
1CP 5+ refund per strat your opponent uses.
1CP 5+ refund per CP you spend.

Meaning there is a chance that that 1cp Rotate Ion Shield strat could potentially refund you 2CP.

Problem is you use so much CP that CP you spend refund becomes near worthless and start per you use isn\t much better. By the time you have got enough from opponent uses to count game is basically over as 8th ed is 1-2 turn games edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It is more about the models I own: only 2 Renegade boxes and 1 Forgebane box.
so i only Have 2 Missile Pods and 2 Icarus Autocannons.

at any Rate with 4 Melta weapons and 2 Stormspears I should be good enough on anti-vehicle.

That\s more understandable. I would look for bits stores then for more missiles if you use 3 carapace weapons. Thing is say against eldar falcon that missile causes about 1W MORE than autocannon. Against flier like crimson hunter yeah here autocannon eeks out but 1.7 vs 1.5 wounds isn\t huge difference either way...

Now albeit if you KNOW you face lots of eldar fliers guess you could list tailor with those.

Wulfey wrote:
Tallarn because it lets the basilisks move into better positions and lets my infantry advance and double shoot on the same turn. Also I can hide the basilisks if I am desparate.

You do not "hide Basilisk if you are desperate", you literally take Basilisks to hide them. With their range and ability to shoot without LOS if you ever have to move them out of cover, you are doing something terribly wrong 'cause there is no "better position" for them than behind the biggest LOS-block you can find as far away from the enemy as possible. And of course, the only doctrine you want to have on Basilisks is Cadian for that precious re-rolls to-hit.

AstraVlad wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Tallarn because it lets the basilisks move into better positions and lets my infantry advance and double shoot on the same turn. Also I can hide the basilisks if I am desparate.

You do not "hide Basilisk if you are desperate", you literally take Basilisks to hide them. With their range and ability to shoot without LOS if you ever have to move them out of cover, you are doing something terribly wrong 'cause there is no "better position" for them than behind the biggest LOS-block you can find as far away from the enemy as possible. And of course, the only doctrine you want to have on Basilisks is Cadian for that precious re-rolls to-hit.

Or catachan for more shots.

Though you are wrong in that there's never point to move and I have done that with manticore as well before(and no it wasn't just cause missiles were out) but generally yeah so situational that it's not worth the trait. Which is why I figured he might be planning to put infantry on reserves for far end objective grabbing or keeping infantry alive for bit more(Which wouldn't even be that bad idea neccessarily if you had CP to spend for that)

FAQ up!

Key part:

Page 106
– Knight Lances ability
Change the last sentence to read:
‘The Command Benefit of each Imperial Knights Super-heavy Detachment is changed to ‘None’ if it does not contain at least one Imperial Knights Titanicunit,
and is changed to ‘+6 Command Points’ if it contains at least three Imperial Knights Titanic units .’

 Kanluwen wrote:
FAQ up!

Key part:

Page 106
– Knight Lances ability
Change the last sentence to read:
‘The Command Benefit of each Imperial Knights Super-heavy Detachment is changed to ‘None’ if it does not contain at least one Imperial Knights Titanicunit,
and is changed to ‘+6 Command Points’ if it contains at least three Imperial Knights Titanic units .’

Letter campaign worked. Go social pressure!

SJ

Armiger change is huuuuge!

Instantly made Armigers so much more enticing to me as someone who previously had zero interest in them.

Doubling the CP gained for having three or more big Knights in the one detachment made Knight heavy lists a lot more exciting. I still don't think pure Knight armies will work at a competitive level but at least they aren't capped at 6CP in 2000 point games anymore.

Both CP changes are big, though looks like FW is still out in the cold. But I'm happy with those changes.

Ice_can wrote:
Both CP changes are big, though looks like FW is still out in the cold. But I'm happy with those changes.

It's not surprising really, onus is on Forge World to update their data-sheets to fit. I was hoping it would come with the codex FAQ but I guess we might have to wait a bit longer.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Armiger change is huuuuge!

I feel like I missed something? I haven't had a chance to sit down and read the Armiger rules in person yet, mind explaining?

Or is this about the whole CP generation thing?