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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The more this goes on the more I groan in my mind with how stupid primaris character loadouts are. FFS how hard is it to give them actual weapons instead of knives? Imperial guard platoon commanders have access to superior weapons ffs. Genestealer cult rigged mining tools and revolvers massively outclass the armament of primaris space marines like what the heck man.

Yeah, I thought that they were stripping down options with the new edition, but their new kits like GSC have a bunch of wargear. It really doesn't make sense that the "better than the best of the best" have such bland and limited options, if it isn't the edition's design philosophy. Seems like they should have matched regular Imperial options with your standard better pistols and CCWs for characters and sergeants and 1 special/heavy per 5. Like, I don't get it.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The more this goes on the more I groan in my mind with how stupid primaris character loadouts are. FFS how hard is it to give them actual weapons instead of knives? Imperial guard platoon commanders have access to superior weapons ffs. Genestealer cult rigged mining tools and revolvers massively outclass the armament of primaris space marines like what the heck man.

Yeah, I thought that they were stripping down options with the new edition, but their new kits like GSC have a bunch of wargear. It really doesn't make sense that the "better than the best of the best" have such bland and limited options, if it isn't the edition's design philosophy. Seems like they should have matched regular Imperial options with your standard better pistols and CCWs for characters and sergeants and 1 special/heavy per 5. Like, I don't get it.

Apparently it's only a design philosophy when applied to any space marines. Other armies get options just fine.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The more this goes on the more I groan in my mind with how stupid primaris character loadouts are. FFS how hard is it to give them actual weapons instead of knives? Imperial guard platoon commanders have access to superior weapons ffs. Genestealer cult rigged mining tools and revolvers massively outclass the armament of primaris space marines like what the heck man.

Funny as I considered space marines highly customizable but with the latest edition they are least coustomizable of all the factions, even the necrons and eldar have more options for their lords and squad leaders. Its hilarious how few options the marines have in comparision when it comes their primaris.

Which is why I refuse to play primaris until they are up to par with regular space marines.

Though it seems to be a design philisophy to release less and less customizable stuff for all the armies out there.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The more this goes on the more I groan in my mind with how stupid primaris character loadouts are. FFS how hard is it to give them actual weapons instead of knives? Imperial guard platoon commanders have access to superior weapons ffs. Genestealer cult rigged mining tools and revolvers massively outclass the armament of primaris space marines like what the heck man.

Funny as I considered space marines highly customizable but with the latest edition they are least coustomizable of all the factions, even the necrons and eldar have more options for their lords and squad leaders. Its hilarious how few options the marines have in comparision when it comes their primaris.

Which is why I refuse to play primaris until they are up to par with regular space marines.

Though it seems to be a design philisophy to release less and less customizable stuff for all the armies out there.

I dont believe they will ever be up to par with old marine characters. They have 8 editions of defunct wargear combos to support in legacy, primaris is a fresh slate and as such can be limited to new stuff in the boxes.

Dudeface wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The more this goes on the more I groan in my mind with how stupid primaris character loadouts are. FFS how hard is it to give them actual weapons instead of knives? Imperial guard platoon commanders have access to superior weapons ffs. Genestealer cult rigged mining tools and revolvers massively outclass the armament of primaris space marines like what the heck man.

Funny as I considered space marines highly customizable but with the latest edition they are least coustomizable of all the factions, even the necrons and eldar have more options for their lords and squad leaders. Its hilarious how few options the marines have in comparision when it comes their primaris.

Which is why I refuse to play primaris until they are up to par with regular space marines.

Though it seems to be a design philisophy to release less and less customizable stuff for all the armies out there.

I dont believe they will ever be up to par with old marine characters. They have 8 editions of defunct wargear combos to support in legacy, primaris is a fresh slate and as such can be limited to new stuff in the boxes.

Which sucks considering the entire point is to customize marines. Instead we have all the same lists for space marines which is a stark contrast to the previous edition.

Options? Every time a model has options Dakka christens one god tier and the rest trash tier. Let’s not act like options are inherently good in and of themselves if some end up serving little purpose, some don’t fit the meta and some are “auto-takes”.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Options? Every time a model has options Dakka christens one god tier and the rest trash tier. Let’s not act like options are inherently good in and of themselves if some end up serving little purpose, some don’t fit the meta and some are “auto-takes”.

For those who play the meta (minority) compared to the people who collect and use the models for painting hobbying etc for casual reasons (most people). Don't speak on the behalf of the fanbase on your own bias. People will use anything as extra item options to use to make their models their guys. Some people used relic blades for ages in 5th edition and 6th when they first introduced and in the horus heresy because those are the coolest items. Though if space marines are at all good is an argument in itself. But who cares that isn't really a valid discussion having as people will discuss that to no end until the skies turn red and the stars burn out.

I want cool models, I want my models to feel unique and to have their own character that fits their choices of weapons, right now you can't do that with the current selection for HQ's. Your HQ is your golden model your representation of your whole army and what your army is all about represented in a single figure.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Options? Every time a model has options Dakka christens one god tier and the rest trash tier. Let’s not act like options are inherently good in and of themselves if some end up serving little purpose, some don’t fit the meta and some are “auto-takes”.

For those who play the meta (minority) compared to the people who collect and use the models for painting hobbying etc for casual reasons (most people). Don't speak on the behalf of the fanbase on your own bias. People will use anything as extra item options to use to make their models their guys. Some people used relic blades for ages in 5th edition and 6th when they first introduced and in the horus heresy because those are the coolest items. Though if space marines are at all good is an argument in itself. But who cares that isn't really a valid discussion having as people will discuss that to no end until the skies turn red and the stars burn out.

I want cool models, I want my models to feel unique and to have their own character that fits their choices of weapons, right now you can't do that with the current selection for HQ's. Your HQ is your golden model your representation of your whole army and what your army is all about represented in a single figure.

+1.

I think the weapons could probably be heavily consolidated (ex: thunder hammers and power fists combined to one) with no real loss to flexibility except at serious competitive play, but your gear can define major roles for your dudes (durable, heavy melee, okay melee, just there for their auras etc.), and Primaris aren't really opening up those major classes of roles like they should.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The more this goes on the more I groan in my mind with how stupid primaris character loadouts are. FFS how hard is it to give them actual weapons instead of knives? Imperial guard platoon commanders have access to superior weapons ffs. Genestealer cult rigged mining tools and revolvers massively outclass the armament of primaris space marines like what the heck man.

Funny as I considered space marines highly customizable but with the latest edition they are least coustomizable of all the factions, even the necrons and eldar have more options for their lords and squad leaders. Its hilarious how few options the marines have in comparision when it comes their primaris.

Which is why I refuse to play primaris until they are up to par with regular space marines.

Though it seems to be a design philisophy to release less and less customizable stuff for all the armies out there.

I dont believe they will ever be up to par with old marine characters. They have 8 editions of defunct wargear combos to support in legacy, primaris is a fresh slate and as such can be limited to new stuff in the boxes.

Which sucks considering the entire point is to customize marines. Instead we have all the same lists for space marines which is a stark contrast to the previous edition.

From the modeling/rule of cool side it sucks. But consider how much more simple it will be to balance 12 options per army, rather than 36.

Ignore points for the moment. Tell me which options from the current tactical squad kit besides bolter, plasma gun and chainsword will see play.

It's okay, I'll answer it. None, save Maayyyyyy-be power swords. You'll not see a power fist, combi-grav, gravity rifle. Flamers? Nope. Melta? Nope. Combi-flamers? Nope. Power axe? Nope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Options? Every time a model has options Dakka christens one god tier and the rest trash tier. Let’s not act like options are inherently good in and of themselves if some end up serving little purpose, some don’t fit the meta and some are “auto-takes”.

For those who play the meta (minority) compared to the people who collect and use the models for painting hobbying etc for casual reasons (most people). Don't speak on the behalf of the fanbase on your own bias. People will use anything as extra item options to use to make their models their guys. Some people used relic blades for ages in 5th edition and 6th when they first introduced and in the horus heresy because those are the coolest items. Though if space marines are at all good is an argument in itself. But who cares that isn't really a valid discussion having as people will discuss that to no end until the skies turn red and the stars burn out.

I want cool models, I want my models to feel unique and to have their own character that fits their choices of weapons, right now you can't do that with the current selection for HQ's. Your HQ is your golden model your representation of your whole army and what your army is all about represented in a single figure.

Are we sure they're the minortiy anymore? All I ever see is meta gamers. It's become nearly the entire hobby. Up until the summer my local store had 12 good friendlies. We're down to 3 now, myself included.

part of the problem with meta gamers is well.. us. DakkaDakka and websites like it need to take some responsability. someone comes here and asks for advice, and the "OMG! YOU MUST FOLLOW DA META" crowd drowns out everyone else. Half of whom don't even like the game anymore. I mean when someone comes to dakka dakka and asks "hi I've got units X Y Z what are some fun units to add to them?" and they immagiedlaty get told "get rida of units XY Z and buy A B C instead." whereas someone chimes in and points out that "technocly units XYZ don't even work via RAW" and a third person immediatly pipes up with how aweful ABC and XYZ are because they're from Codx Alpha instead of codex Beta" etc...

I mean if thats all new comers to the hobby hear it's going to direct them in the wrong direction.

Which would be so awful. GW needs to stop fracturing the space marine codex with BS like Phobos only or Primaris only. The entire book would be a ton more playable if they returned to the NORMAL manner of having space marines be space marines. It's fine if some abilities are restricted to MAJOR differences in armor such as 4+ carapace, 2+ terminator but Phobos vs MK X vs Slightly Different MK X vs Slightly different 2.0 MK X? They're all just 3+ saves.

Agreed. I mean yeah you can technically play all the primaris units mixed and im sure that will continue but some of these primaris units are akward choices and no real incentive going one way or another. 40k in general is in such an awkward place and I really hope this next rumored book is not like a vanguard only book. All of the blurry models just look like multi part vanguard kits with a new tank, dread and maybe another hero on top of the LT leaked. I might be done with marines and 40K in general until 9th rolls around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kirasu wrote:
It's pretty amusing that the players are annoyed at the amount of stupid Primaris Lt. models which then GW capitalizes on to create jokes about.

But then... produces more dumb Primaris characters and more Lts! Its like they're trolling their own player base (instead of producing playable marine rules and models)

Well I mean GW seems to think its smart to openly troll people on their official facebook which is unbelievably stupid.

 gainsay wrote:

Which would be so awful. GW needs to stop fracturing the space marine codex with BS like Phobos only or Primaris only. The entire book would be a ton more playable if they returned to the NORMAL manner of having space marines be space marines. It's fine if some abilities are restricted to MAJOR differences in armor such as 4+ carapace, 2+ terminator but Phobos vs MK X vs Slightly Different MK X vs Slightly different 2.0 MK X? They're all just 3+ saves.

Agreed. I mean yeah you can technically play all the primaris units mixed and im sure that will continue but some of these primaris units are akward choices and no real incentive going one way or another. 40k in general is in such an awkward place and I really hope this next rumored book is not like a vanguard only book. All of the blurry models just look like multi part vanguard kits with a new tank, dread and maybe another hero on top of the LT leaked. I might be done with marines and 40K in general until 9th rolls around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kirasu wrote:
It's pretty amusing that the players are annoyed at the amount of stupid Primaris Lt. models which then GW capitalizes on to create jokes about.

But then... produces more dumb Primaris characters and more Lts! Its like they're trolling their own player base (instead of producing playable marine rules and models)

Well I mean GW seems to think its smart to openly troll people on their official facebook which is unbelievably stupid.

Actually, it's hilarious. If people are getting butthurt about it, I laugh at that too.

I think it is stupid for them to troll people intentionally.

Plus they just raised the points cost on the latest space marine vehicle for little no reason other than it might be 'abuseable' but we can get a Levithian Dread for cheaper and that does more than the new tank.

one thing to keep in mind re the Leuitenant, is that for those who don't play the snow flake chapters, we currently can't buy a Leuitenat without buying a big expensive boxed set. so if this Phobos Lt is stand alone... that's actually a NEEDED Leuitenant release (which honestly shows how insane the Lt situation is TBH)

 Togusa wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The more this goes on the more I groan in my mind with how stupid primaris character loadouts are. FFS how hard is it to give them actual weapons instead of knives? Imperial guard platoon commanders have access to superior weapons ffs. Genestealer cult rigged mining tools and revolvers massively outclass the armament of primaris space marines like what the heck man.

Funny as I considered space marines highly customizable but with the latest edition they are least coustomizable of all the factions, even the necrons and eldar have more options for their lords and squad leaders. Its hilarious how few options the marines have in comparision when it comes their primaris.

Which is why I refuse to play primaris until they are up to par with regular space marines.

Though it seems to be a design philisophy to release less and less customizable stuff for all the armies out there.

I dont believe they will ever be up to par with old marine characters. They have 8 editions of defunct wargear combos to support in legacy, primaris is a fresh slate and as such can be limited to new stuff in the boxes.

Which sucks considering the entire point is to customize marines. Instead we have all the same lists for space marines which is a stark contrast to the previous edition.

From the modeling/rule of cool side it sucks. But consider how much more simple it will be to balance 12 options per army, rather than 36.

Ignore points for the moment. Tell me which options from the current tactical squad kit besides bolter, plasma gun and chainsword will see play.

It's okay, I'll answer it. None, save Maayyyyyy-be power swords. You'll not see a power fist, combi-grav, gravity rifle. Flamers? Nope. Melta? Nope. Combi-flamers? Nope. Power axe? Nope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Options? Every time a model has options Dakka christens one god tier and the rest trash tier. Let’s not act like options are inherently good in and of themselves if some end up serving little purpose, some don’t fit the meta and some are “auto-takes”.

For those who play the meta (minority) compared to the people who collect and use the models for painting hobbying etc for casual reasons (most people). Don't speak on the behalf of the fanbase on your own bias. People will use anything as extra item options to use to make their models their guys. Some people used relic blades for ages in 5th edition and 6th when they first introduced and in the horus heresy because those are the coolest items. Though if space marines are at all good is an argument in itself. But who cares that isn't really a valid discussion having as people will discuss that to no end until the skies turn red and the stars burn out.

I want cool models, I want my models to feel unique and to have their own character that fits their choices of weapons, right now you can't do that with the current selection for HQ's. Your HQ is your golden model your representation of your whole army and what your army is all about represented in a single figure.

Are we sure they're the minortiy anymore? All I ever see is meta gamers. It's become nearly the entire hobby. Up until the summer my local store had 12 good friendlies. We're down to 3 now, myself included.

So if the meta gamers are the problem, why punish the casuals, fluff-nuts and modellers by stripping away their options? There will always be an optimal loadout, but I'd vastly prefer that over a single loadout. Why? Because there'll always be the chance to see something different. Having a set loadout means that's all you'll see. Having options means you might play against something different, even if the majority lean a certain way.

 gainsay wrote:

Which would be so awful. GW needs to stop fracturing the space marine codex with BS like Phobos only or Primaris only. The entire book would be a ton more playable if they returned to the NORMAL manner of having space marines be space marines. It's fine if some abilities are restricted to MAJOR differences in armor such as 4+ carapace, 2+ terminator but Phobos vs MK X vs Slightly Different MK X vs Slightly different 2.0 MK X? They're all just 3+ saves.

Agreed. I mean yeah you can technically play all the primaris units mixed and im sure that will continue but some of these primaris units are akward choices and no real incentive going one way or another. 40k in general is in such an awkward place and I really hope this next rumored book is not like a vanguard only book. All of the blurry models just look like multi part vanguard kits with a new tank, dread and maybe another hero on top of the LT leaked. I might be done with marines and 40K in general until 9th rolls around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kirasu wrote:
It's pretty amusing that the players are annoyed at the amount of stupid Primaris Lt. models which then GW capitalizes on to create jokes about.

But then... produces more dumb Primaris characters and more Lts! Its like they're trolling their own player base (instead of producing playable marine rules and models)

Well I mean GW seems to think its smart to openly troll people on their official facebook which is unbelievably stupid.

But is it? I'd say it's good marketing, as much as I disagree with it. The young kids love that kind of stuff, and I see most of the trolling posts being well received.

 gainsay wrote:
Well I mean GW seems to think its smart to openly troll people on their official facebook which is unbelievably stupid.

They're not trolling people. They're leaning into a joke that their community started.

Appealing to your immature customer base is one thing but as a multi million pound company you don't have to stoop to that level. It's a real amature approach in a social media marketing strategy with a brand that has such a large fan base. I'm specifically pointing out the people who work for the community team who reply to snarky comments with something equally petty. It's just unnecessary even if sometimes their funny because remember this is a company. Maybe I think differently because I've been working in marketing and design for a long time but sometimes the things they say are cringeworthy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 gainsay wrote:
Well I mean GW seems to think its smart to openly troll people on their official facebook which is unbelievably stupid.

They're not trolling people. They're leaning into a joke that their community started.

Dude I'm referring to tone on Facebook replies and not talking about the primaris LT joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

 gainsay wrote:

Which would be so awful. GW needs to stop fracturing the space marine codex with BS like Phobos only or Primaris only. The entire book would be a ton more playable if they returned to the NORMAL manner of having space marines be space marines. It's fine if some abilities are restricted to MAJOR differences in armor such as 4+ carapace, 2+ terminator but Phobos vs MK X vs Slightly Different MK X vs Slightly different 2.0 MK X? They're all just 3+ saves.

Agreed. I mean yeah you can technically play all the primaris units mixed and im sure that will continue but some of these primaris units are akward choices and no real incentive going one way or another. 40k in general is in such an awkward place and I really hope this next rumored book is not like a vanguard only book. All of the blurry models just look like multi part vanguard kits with a new tank, dread and maybe another hero on top of the LT leaked. I might be done with marines and 40K in general until 9th rolls around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kirasu wrote:
It's pretty amusing that the players are annoyed at the amount of stupid Primaris Lt. models which then GW capitalizes on to create jokes about.

But then... produces more dumb Primaris characters and more Lts! Its like they're trolling their own player base (instead of producing playable marine rules and models)

Well I mean GW seems to think its smart to openly troll people on their official facebook which is unbelievably stupid.

Actually, it's hilarious. If people are getting butthurt about it, I laugh at that too.

Yeah I bet you find it funny... This is a customer and company interacting though. I can't think of another company that does that to it's customers and the rest find it funny / acceptable constantly. It's trashy imo.

what exactly is being said on facebook? for those of us not wanting to wade through hundreds of posts?

I mostly agree, gainsay, but I'm curious how much of it is cultural: is this a sensibility that works in British society, or hobby culture, or something? They're hardly the only company I've seen that joke like this, though they are the biggest. IDK, I feel like they've expanded faster than they've been able to really recognize it, or they just don't care because what they're doing seems to work.

BrianDavion wrote:
what exactly is being said on facebook? for those of us not wanting to wade through hundreds of posts?

They're blowing it out of proportion. 9/10 times it's harmless jokes that community starts first. 8-9/10 the jokes are well received.

Stuff like one guy asked when the Dark Angles Codex was coming out, and the GW team said "It already had" and then posted a link to the Chaos Space Marines Codex on their webstore.

 Togusa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what exactly is being said on facebook? for those of us not wanting to wade through hundreds of posts?

They're blowing it out of proportion. 9/10 times it's harmless jokes that community starts first. 8-9/10 the jokes are well received.

Stuff like one guy asked when the Dark Angles Codex was coming out, and the GW team said "It already had" and then posted a link to the Chaos Space Marines Codex on their webstore.

Ahh yeah, I see the issue now, GW's adopting a very "joke around with the community as part of the community" stance, which is popular with a lot of people, but some people find it annoying and decry it as unprofessional. course they can't win since if they went pure professional folks would claim it was boring and "cold and distant"

 Togusa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what exactly is being said on facebook? for those of us not wanting to wade through hundreds of posts?

They're blowing it out of proportion. 9/10 times it's harmless jokes that community starts first. 8-9/10 the jokes are well received.

Stuff like one guy asked when the Dark Angles Codex was coming out, and the GW team said "It already had" and then posted a link to the Chaos Space Marines Codex on their webstore.

That’s quality. I like that.

Which would be so awful. GW needs to stop fracturing the space marine codex with BS like Phobos only or Primaris only. The entire book would be a ton more playable if they returned to the NORMAL manner of having space marines be space marines. It's fine if some abilities are restricted to MAJOR differences in armor such as 4+ carapace, 2+ terminator but Phobos vs MK X vs Slightly Different MK X vs Slightly different 2.0 MK X? They're all just 3+ saves.

If normal MK 10 was left as it was and Gravis (3+ T5) but Phobos was something like a 4+ but you got +1 movement or +1 to charges or advance rolls that might work. (As well as making Reivers a little better)

I think the issue with the jokes are that it’s basically a British cultural thing. Hardly anyone outside of Britain gets our humour.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 gainsay wrote:
Well I mean GW seems to think its smart to openly troll people on their official facebook which is unbelievably stupid.

They're not trolling people. They're leaning into a joke that their community started.

This. It’s hilarious, and getting salty about it just demonstrates you don’t understand the levity they’re going for. I’d rather GW take the piss out of itself with us than pretend every decision they make is sensible and nothing about their universes is inherently silly. You can love something and still poke fun at obviously silly bits, and silly people.

I agree it's genuinely funny. this isn't a British humor thing, this is just some people take things too seriously and get offended when the company seemingly doesn't

I doubt anything will change regarding GW's policies, especially considering they're breaking record profits year after year now.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 gainsay wrote:
Well I mean GW seems to think its smart to openly troll people on their official facebook which is unbelievably stupid.

They're not trolling people. They're leaning into a joke that their community started.

This. It’s hilarious, and getting salty about it just demonstrates you don’t understand the levity they’re going for. I’d rather GW take the piss out of itself with us than pretend every decision they make is sensible and nothing about their universes is inherently silly. You can love something and still poke fun at obviously silly bits, and silly people.

I like a lot of the fiction I like because of the silly bits. If anybody appreciated Judge Dredd or 40k because they thought the factions in play were being sensible I’d be concerned.

 Togusa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what exactly is being said on facebook? for those of us not wanting to wade through hundreds of posts?

They're blowing it out of proportion. 9/10 times it's harmless jokes that community starts first. 8-9/10 the jokes are well received.

Stuff like one guy asked when the Dark Angles Codex was coming out, and the GW team said "It already had" and then posted a link to the Chaos Space Marines Codex on their webstore.

Made me snort, love that response.