Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I don't know if this is a language barrier issue or a reading comprehension thing, but I never said they should do anything.
A person is entirely able to hope for a change due to personal reasons, and after reading through previous pages of text you are even capable and confident enough to put down users who want to field, for example, Slaanesh daemons. So, as you are operating under the impression they're bad, I'm sure you're equally capable of hoping they make a change.
That is not the same statement as saying they should, or have to, do anything.
Sadly Tzeentch will never be anything other than a tiny ingredient. If your one army is in chaos, imperium or aeldarii - you will NEVER have a competitive army in the current game(with the one exception of astra militarum, but soup is still better so that's barelly an exception).
The only real full armies in the game right now are:
Astra Militarum
Necrons - suck unless 2+ vaults and because knights
Orks - suck because no codex
T'AU - meh because soups can cover T'AU weaknesses with strengths
Tyranids - suck because knights
rvd1ofakind wrote: Sadly Tzeentch will never be anything other than a tiny ingredient. If your one army is in chaos, imperium or aeldarii - you will NEVER have a competitive army in the current game(with the one exception of astra militarum, but soup is still better so that's barelly an exception).
The only real full armies in the game right now are:
Astra Militarum
Necrons - suck unless 2+ vaults and because knights
Orks - suck because no codex
T'AU - meh because soups can cover T'AU weaknesses with strengths
Tyranids - suck because knights
This kind of post is a great example of blowing things out of proportion. There is plenty of things that can still place highly in tournaments, and the meta is ever changing. Orks have won plenty from Boy spam, so do they suck because the rest of the army is lacking, or good because they can win handedly off of one troop choice?
Blowing things out of proportion? There was ONE ork list in the BAO, there was ONE non-3 vault necron list in the ETC. These armies are doing really bad. The meta only really changes after FAQs or codexes.
Have you seen the Nova invitational lists? It's a joke. Half the players are bringing the same list.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Blowing things out of proportion? There was ONE ork list in the BAO, there was ONE non-3 vault necron list in the ETC. These armies are doing really bad. The meta only really changes after FAQs or codexes.
Have you seen the Nova invitational lists? It's a joke. Half the players are bringing the same list.
There was more than one I assure you, and I think you're putting a little too much faith into top 10. I'll grant you that a hefty weight of getting a chance at winning a tournament is bringing the best list possible, but the game is random dice based format, with players of varying skill. Just because something shows up greatly for a month doesn't make it the be all end all. It's the hot new thing. The reason half these lists win is because the meta is built around something else and they break in from the side, or their codex gets released and is suprisingly powerful. (Or you play Orks and spam a single troop choice.)
rvd1ofakind wrote: Blowing things out of proportion? There was ONE ork list in the BAO, there was ONE non-3 vault necron list in the ETC. These armies are doing really bad. The meta only really changes after FAQs or codexes.
Have you seen the Nova invitational lists? It's a joke. Half the players are bringing the same list.
Ik's?
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
rvd1ofakind wrote: Blowing things out of proportion? There was ONE ork list in the BAO, there was ONE non-3 vault necron list in the ETC. These armies are doing really bad. The meta only really changes after FAQs or codexes.
Have you seen the Nova invitational lists? It's a joke. Half the players are bringing the same list.
There was more than one I assure you, and I think you're putting a little too much faith into top 10. I'll grant you that a hefty weight of getting a chance at winning a tournament is bringing the best list possible, but the game is random dice based format, with players of varying skill. Just because something shows up greatly for a month doesn't make it the be all end all. It's the hot new thing. The reason half these lists win is because the meta is built around something else and they break in from the side, or their codex gets released and is suprisingly powerful. (Or you play Orks and spam a single troop choice.)
"I assuure you". Dude, I SAW the list of lists (lol). And there was only 1 of each in those scenarios. (notice there were 7 other necron lists but they were 3 vaults).
And luck means jack in most games if you're actually good at the game.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Blowing things out of proportion? There was ONE ork list in the BAO, there was ONE non-3 vault necron list in the ETC. These armies are doing really bad. The meta only really changes after FAQs or codexes.
Have you seen the Nova invitational lists? It's a joke. Half the players are bringing the same list.
Ik's?
IG battery
BA battallion
IK (castelan)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/19 14:50:26
Zid wrote: I would not, however, run a battalion of Khorne; at most a patrol. They just don't have great troop options like Tzeentch or Nurgle.
I contest this! Bloodletter bombs are definitely still a thing and are fantastic when facing any army without invulnerable saves on their troops, they're even pretty good at taking down knights (with a DP and Skarbrand, a 20 man unit will destroy an unwounded Knight on the charge).
Quite a lot of the time, a late game Bloodletter bomb will devastate your opponent when they know longer have enough units to screen against them.
Issue with that bomb in a batallion is it costs 3-4 cp per bomb depending on if you bring the standard (which you probably want for the 3d6 charge dice. A single big bomb of bloodletters is good but you probaly can't afford more then one. As filler they are terrible compared to nurglings, horrors, and plaguebearers. i'd argue even daemonettes are slightly better starting on field because they can advance and charge and be given a 6+++. so your stuck with 2 terrible bloodletter troops if you want locus in a batallion. I think the bomb works better as an addition to another khorne formation but that costs cp
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/19 17:35:42
Issue with that bomb in a batallion is it costs 3-4 cp per bomb depending on if you bring the standard (which you probably want for the 3d6 charge dice. A single big bomb of bloodletters is good but you probaly can't afford more then one. As filler they are terrible compared to nurglings, horrors, and plaguebearers. i'd argue even daemonettes are slightly better starting on field because they can advance and charge and be given a 6+++. so your stuck with 2 terrible bloodletter troops if you want locus in a batallion. I think the bomb works better as an addition to another khorne formation but that costs cp
I run a Daemon detachment alongside my World Eaters with 2x 25 Bloodletters with the banner, a min unit of Bloodletters, a Herald and a DP. That costs 8CP to throw into deepstrike but I run 3 Battalions so I have plenty of CP. It's the most powerful part of my list (the only other thing in the list that puts out damage are my Berzerkers) and is great for tagging an entire army, destroying any unit you want and for grabbing objectives.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Issue with that bomb in a batallion is it costs 3-4 cp per bomb depending on if you bring the standard (which you probably want for the 3d6 charge dice. A single big bomb of bloodletters is good but you probaly can't afford more then one. As filler they are terrible compared to nurglings, horrors, and plaguebearers. i'd argue even daemonettes are slightly better starting on field because they can advance and charge and be given a 6+++. so your stuck with 2 terrible bloodletter troops if you want locus in a batallion. I think the bomb works better as an addition to another khorne formation but that costs cp
I run a Daemon detachment alongside my World Eaters with 2x 25 Bloodletters with the banner, a min unit of Bloodletters, a Herald and a DP. That costs 8CP to throw into deepstrike but I run 3 Battalions so I have plenty of CP. It's the most powerful part of my list (the only other thing in the list that puts out damage are my Berzerkers) and is great for tagging an entire army, destroying any unit you want and for grabbing objectives.
ah that explains it. i was only thinking of the daemon codex
Issue with that bomb in a batallion is it costs 3-4 cp per bomb depending on if you bring the standard (which you probably want for the 3d6 charge dice. A single big bomb of bloodletters is good but you probaly can't afford more then one. As filler they are terrible compared to nurglings, horrors, and plaguebearers. i'd argue even daemonettes are slightly better starting on field because they can advance and charge and be given a 6+++. so your stuck with 2 terrible bloodletter troops if you want locus in a batallion. I think the bomb works better as an addition to another khorne formation but that costs cp
I run a Daemon detachment alongside my World Eaters with 2x 25 Bloodletters with the banner, a min unit of Bloodletters, a Herald and a DP. That costs 8CP to throw into deepstrike but I run 3 Battalions so I have plenty of CP. It's the most powerful part of my list (the only other thing in the list that puts out damage are my Berzerkers) and is great for tagging an entire army, destroying any unit you want and for grabbing objectives.
ah that explains it. i was only thinking of the daemon codex
I mean you could do something similar with a pure Daemon army, the Battalion I use about 700pts and is even cheaper if you drop to 20 man Bloodletter units (also means they're only 2 rather than 3CP each to deploy in), drop instruments of Chaos and swap the Daemon Prince for another Herald; that's only about 500pts.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Thousand Sons Supreme Command (+1CP)
HQ Ahriman on Disc – 166
Powers: Diabolic Strength, Death Hex, Glamour
Parveidota Upuris, Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, 2 Talons, Helm relic – 180
Powers: Weaver, Warptime
Izvelas Izmainas, Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, 2 Talons – 180
Powers: Gift of Chaos, Temporal Manipulation
Reinforcement Points (for splits and an occasional Spawn) – 85
My general strategy is to put the LoC at the front of a spear, with the Princes arranged around him depending on enemy mobility. I want the LoC in the front to block as much damage as possible, since he has the best save, highest toughness, and most wounds of all my models. And while no slouch in combat, obviously my damage is generated from other sources.
Game 1 VERSUS Imperial Guard
Spoiler:
This guy had a severely unoptimized list, and he said it was his 3rd game in 8e and his first tournament ever. Props for coming to such a big event. He won the Purple Heart award for losing all six games but still playing all six! Throughout our game, I reminded him to use his Regimental bonus, his Russ double-shoot, and even told him about Vengeance for Cadia strat.
His list was, roughly, a Cadian brigade with Creed, Commisar, Tempestor Prime, four Infantry Squads (two in Chimeras), two five-man Scion units (with no plasma), a Scion Command (again no plasma), a Command Squad (Standard, vox, etc), a Master of Ordinance, three Armoured Sentinels with plascans, autocannon HWT, las HWT, mortar HWT; and then a Cadian Spearhead with Company Commander, Basilisk, Wyvern, and three LRBTs (mix of turrets).
One Top I went first (I had fewer drops). We had Hammer and Anvil deployment, five objectives, one in the center, with a rather huge hill+tower in center field. T1 I moved everything up the field, advancing with all the Princes except one, who got seriously buffed (3++, -1 to hit, Diabolic Strength) and then Warptimed forward. This guy, Izvelas Izmainas, then gave Creed a very lovely Gift of Chaos (9" range bc TSons)...and yes I beat his toughness, and OF COURSE I did 5 wounds. And a Spawn popped out and tied up an infantry squad on an objective.
LoC, Nurgle, and Ahriman all did some wounds to Sentinels. Izvelas Izmainas shredded the same infantry squad the Spawn was facing, and that was top of 1.
One Bottom This was really awful for him. LoC had a 2++, weathered all the Russ shooting with minimal damage and the Nurglings took some Wyvern and small arms fire. The Crystal Prince took a couple wounds, but was largely unscathed, thanks to the modifiers on him. The Spawn died.
Two Top I moved everything up, except the Flamers who were waiting mid-field, hidden, to counter the Scion drop. Arioch got a nice Gateway off on a Sentinel, hitting three other units. Izvelas Izmainas healed himself and moved over to the lovely grouping of Commisar, Ordinance, Basilisk, and Wyvern. The Pink blob, which had dropped with Vashta Nerada, cleared off an infantry squad and a few bases of HWTs.
Izvelas Izmainas multicharged the Basilisk and both characters, and killed both characters. Nurgle charged and destroyed a sentinel. Arioch multicharged a sentinel and an infantry squad, killing the Sentinel and causing the infantry to flee in morale. Parveidota Upuris killed an infantry squad.
At this point, there were a couple Chimeras (one full), the Basilisk in combat, three LRBTs, and a character.
Two Bottom He dropped in the Scions, and killed a few Pinks. The Russes plinked at Arioch, who took minimal damage. The Wyvern shot at lesser daemons. The final infantry squad unloaded and shot into Nurgle, doing nothing of note. Izvelas Izmainas killed the Basilisk in combat (bc yes I did heroically intervene after he fell back 2").
And by the bottom of T2 he had killed less than 10 models. He got several Nurgling bases, a few Pink Horrors, and had made a dent in a couple of my princes. His Scions (all four units of them) dropped into my backfield and didn't do much, and I had held my Flamers back in order to counter this.
At this point, he conceded. Had we continued, I would have killed all the Scions with the Flamers and perhaps a bit of Pink shooting, thus securing my backfield. I would have charged the Russes with Khorne, Nurgle, and Arioch. Mortal wounds would've taken out a Chimera.
So a great starting show for me at this six round tournament! It was 38-4 at the end, putting me in 3rd place overall.
Game 2 VERSUS Mirror Match Magnus!
Spoiler:
I have played this guy several times in the past couple months with iterations of my list, and have won each time by a narrow margin. We're pretty closely matched, and each game has been a back-and-forth bloodbath. He's pretty competitive, and has even made matrices detailing which ITC Secondaries he should take against which opponents; as well as a matrix for his opponents detailing how many characters he has, how many models, how many etc. A bit over the top, imo, but to each his own.
His list was TSons Supreme (Ahriman, 3 Princes, Magnus), TSons Battalion (Sorcerer, Sorcerer, 3x10 Cultists), and Tzeentch Battalion (Tzerald, Changeling, 3x10 Brims, 9x Flamers). So not exactly a mirror match, but quite a bit of confluence. Our Psychic phases were INTENSE.
We had the corners w/ middle bubble deployment. We had a nearly identical deployment--a spear of princes (and lil Ahriman) tipped by Magnus or Arioch, respectively. My Nurglings sat near his far side line, and he countered with all the cultists and two Brims.
One Top He got first turn, and played very conservatively. His Ahriman moved to support cultists against my Nurglings, and all his other stuff crept forward. Arioch took FIFTEEN mortals in this psychic phase. He used the TSons stratagem on Gateway to give Magnus a net +4 cast, and caused quite a few wounds on Princes (but fortunately rolled rather low on the damage).
The rest of the game was really a struggle for the center point, with various charges, interventions, and multiassaults. It was brutal. The best part for me was when his Ahriman had a perils, I knocked it up to 2d3 damage, and he burned out, killing a variety of cultists. That was T2. I managed to kill Magnus with Khorne and Nurgle together (not even that 3++ can save you against that much damage).
It was all such a psychic blur that I can't remember the specific details as well, but I ended up winning 22-19. I think I eked it out because of secondaries. His 9 Flamers dropping into my backfield gave me quite a scare, but I cleared them off through Pink shooting and a gutsy charge.
Game 3 VERSUS Imperial Knights
Spoiler:
I played against the first place player. He's pretty good, probably the best in our meta and also does very well at national tournaments. Usually plays Nids, but switched it up because he felt like easy mode His list is three Taranis Knights (Crusader , Gallant, Warden), a Freeblade Raven Castellan (big plasma, 4 missiles), and a Guard battalion (2 Commanders, one Warlord, and 3x10 Infantry).
We had Dawn of War deployment, with four objectives (two in the very middle of each deployment zone, two near the short edges midfield). I camped my Brims on mine, Nurglings on the other two, and he camped his Guard on his, with a squad aimed at each center field objective. Knights grouped up in the middle.
One Top I got first turn, and surged forward. I moved some Pinks up to reinforce the Nurglings on a side objective, and all the big boys moved forward in formation to try and engage a Knight. I was out of range for Gateway (sadly), but I did make a T1 charge with a TSons Prince. He caused roughly six wounds to a Knight (this opponent has an entire game of above average saves) and dies a squishy death. This was a serious mistake on my part, and I wish I had instead weathered a turn of shooting at Big Bird, with all my princes lined up behind, and then gang-banged two knights next turn. I should've played more conservatively. I also failed Treason, boo.
One Bottom There was a lot of shooting here that gave some damage to Arioch. But nothing noteworthy happened besides some Guardsmen moving forward and stripping a few Nurgling wounds.
Two Top Flamers came in and DID NOT MANAGE TO KILL AN INFANTRY SQUAD. This just shows how crazy he was doing on saves during this whole game. 6d6 S4 -1 hits on a 10 man guard squad, and they don't all die. The probability of doing at least 10 wounds is 74% I charged the Gallant (double cc knight) with Nurgle, Khorne, and the remaining TSons, and Khorne did 22 wounds, with Nurgle finishing it off. That was really crazy, and I immediately kissed my Khorne prince, and thanked the Fates that I had decided to go with that choice in the end. Thanks to small_gods for the suggestion above. Totally worth it. When the Knight died it exploded, causing wounds to three princes, the LoC, and another Knight.
I also did some more damage across the Knights with mortals, and my big Pink blob plopped onto my objective because I didn't want a Knight getting in there and stealing it from me. They actually did SEVEN wounds to the Knight they shot at (FlickerFire means wounds on 5s!).
Two Bottom Nurgle died. Nurglings died. Flamers died. Tzerald died to Shieldbreaker. Arioch took some damage. The Pinks took a wound or two from stubbers, but the main guns were focused on bigger targets.
Three Top My smaller unit of Pinks ran forward to engage a lonely Guard Commander in a ruin. This will lead to one of two situations, out of my control, that resulted in my loss. I did enough mortals that I could a second knight (I think the Warden) in cc with a prince, and I managed to kill the Castellan with Khorne, who did TWENTY-FIVE more damage. Unbelievable. Mathhammer says that my average should be 19 damage, so I'm definitely getting above average. Maybe I'm giving this guy too much credit, but he's good. And just wait till game five, hehehe.
Pink blob finished off some stray guardsmen, and did another wound to a knight. Not a bad showing for them.
Three Bottom Second TSons Prince died. This leaves me with Khorne on a couple wounds, menacing the Guard Warlord; Ahriman, near center field giving psychic support; Arioch with 5 wounds left; the huge blob of Horrors midfield; a couple Nurglings on an objective; and 8 Pink rushing the second cowardly Commander. He's got a Crusader, sixish Guardsmen, and two Commanders.
Well, hit the and that Warden, in a single round of shooting, manages to kill Ahriman (with the gatling), Khorne Prince (with a Flamer and stubber) and Arioch (with the melta). Note that I had forgotten all game about my -1D warlord trait, and upon the killing blow, which melta (at half range) caused 6D, still killed him for 5D This really turned the tables, and was some very unfortunate rolling on my part.
Four Top 8 Pinks move into position and shoot the cowardly Commander, dealing two wounds. Big blob of Pinks shoots the Knight, who is heavily wounded, and does another wound or two (but not enough). I still have a single Flamer, who moves off an objective to try and root out the remaining Infantry Squad.
8 Pinks charge the cowardly commander, and do two wounds. He fails both saves. He uses his last command point to make the save, and regains the CP.
Four Bottom The single Flamer dies to las. The Warden charges my Pink blob and everyone piles in. I have so many splits, I do no damage, and the pile-in definitely secures my objective. I take my morale (because I lost a LOT of guys) and I roll a 1 Four Pinks come back, getting me to 26 models. Heh. The Commander in cc kills a Horror, and I give him a wound, his final wound. He fails his save; a CP is spent to reroll. Save is made, CP is regained. This means that I don't really have a hope of clearing off his back objective or getting his Warlord.
Five Top Horrors are all in combat. The EXACT SAME THING happens with the Commander, except this time he finally runs out of CP. I lose some Horrors, but nothing terrible. I'm still winning on objectives because of two little Nurgling bases that are hiding behind a hill.
Five Bottom Warden falls back, shoots some Horrors, and charges the Nurglings. The Nurglings freaking survive, because the Warden is so damaged he misses a lot. Guardsmen rush to an objective.
Six Top Pink Blob, with loads of models left (still 20+) spread out to hold the objective while trying for some shots at the Warlord (who was in range for some reason?) and the Infantry squad who had moved moved moved to an objective. Lesser unit of Pinks move toward the Warlord, but are in a ruin and can't see.
Pink blob fires 7 models (21 shots) and the Warlord takes 2 wounds, whereas the average would be 3.5. This is, again, where his saving rolls are absurdly (maliciously?) hot. Right at the crux, he makes it again. Some more Pinks shoot at the infantry and squish them. Knight squishes last Nurgling. (I couldn't fall back, hold the objective, and also avoid Intervention, so I had no choice.)
Six Bottom Knight kills a few Horrors, game over.
I lost 21-26, and I can't help but feel that if just one of three specific things had gone differently, I would've won. If either Khorne, Ahriman, or Arioch had survived the Warden shooting round, I could've killed at least the Warlord, and maybe even the Warden. If that Commander hadn't rerolled three saves, I would've been out of combat and killing the Warlord with those Pinks. Or if my final round of Pink shooting had not been unstatistically saved against, I would've got some more points and denied him some.
But it's a dice game in the end. I need new dice.
Skullreaver did approximately NINETY DAMAGE across the tournament against Knights. That's just in two games, so an average of FORTY-FIVE DAMAGE against a Knight opponent. That is INSANE. I seriously cannot get my head around it, I have never done that much damage with a single unit before. My hardest-hitting unit, a Grey Knight GMDK, will do about 20 damage against a big target, if he's lucky. And he's 300pts, nearly double what the Prince is.
I'll post the other three rounds later. For now, I'm typed out.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
I'm glad it went well for you and yours been having success with them.
I've won several RTTs with my Daemons. My main gripe, as I've intended to get across and did during the early days of the thread, os the power disparity. I have many, many armies. Daemons have to try harder than any of them, besides Deathwatch. It absolutely can happen, and you absolutely can do well with them. It's just harder to do than the rest. That's not by itself a negative thing.
Terrible? No.
Great? Also no.
Again, just a personal opinion. I miss added complexity for Tzeentch. I miss more powerful psychcic phases. Multiple small gripes, but again, I'm very glad it's working for you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/21 03:09:29
I find that Daemons are not incredibly amazing by themselves, no. But they can turn CSM, Death Guard and T-Sons into tournament contenders when added into a list, which is at least an up in my book. They're a support army, even if I don't like it.
vaklor4 wrote: I find that Daemons are not incredibly amazing by themselves, no. But they can turn CSM, Death Guard and T-Sons into tournament contenders when added into a list, which is at least an up in my book. They're a support army, even if I don't like it.
Is there a consensus about what type of units are best served as support elements for Death Guard and T-Sons armies.
Nurglings, poxwalkers and the other buff units are obvious inclusions I'd wager. How about Khorne DP's? Are they useful enough to want to ally in?
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm glad it went well for you and yours been having success with them.
I've won several RTTs with my Daemons. My main gripe, as I've intended to get across and did during the early days of the thread, os the power disparity. I have many, many armies. Daemons have to try harder than any of them, besides Deathwatch. It absolutely can happen, and you absolutely can do well with them. It's just harder to do than the rest. That's not by itself a negative thing.
Terrible? No.
Great? Also no.
Again, just a personal opinion. I miss added complexity for Tzeentch. I miss more powerful psychcic phases. Multiple small gripes, but again, I'm very glad it's working for you.
I could be biased as well, considering my main army is Grey Knights. At this point, literally ANYTHING is better, so I’ve been extremely pleased with how my Daemons have been succeeding. Lol
As to DS the LoC—absolutely not! He is the character protection from shooting on T1, and with a 2++ and -1 damage, he has never died T1. Even if he gets charged, I will usually have some Princes in Intervention range to clear the threat; and if that doesn’t work, he can still fly away if I need a different target for smite/gateway. Very versatile, very tough, and I have the Creature Caster model so I like that too!
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm glad it went well for you and yours been having success with them.
I've won several RTTs with my Daemons. My main gripe, as I've intended to get across and did during the early days of the thread, os the power disparity. I have many, many armies. Daemons have to try harder than any of them, besides Deathwatch. It absolutely can happen, and you absolutely can do well with them. It's just harder to do than the rest. That's not by itself a negative thing.
Terrible? No.
Great? Also no.
Again, just a personal opinion. I miss added complexity for Tzeentch. I miss more powerful psychcic phases. Multiple small gripes, but again, I'm very glad it's working for you.
I could be biased as well, considering my main army is Grey Knights. At this point, literally ANYTHING is better, so I’ve been extremely pleased with how my Daemons have been succeeding. Lol
As to DS the LoC—absolutely not! He is the character protection from shooting on T1, and with a 2++ and -1 damage, he has never died T1. Even if he gets charged, I will usually have some Princes in Intervention range to clear the threat; and if that doesn’t work, he can still fly away if I need a different target for smite/gateway. Very versatile, very tough, and I have the Creature Caster model so I like that too!
Do tell, how do you get the LoC to 2++? Warpsurge and Weaver cap out at 3++ even with the impossible robe.
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm glad it went well for you and yours been having success with them.
I've won several RTTs with my Daemons. My main gripe, as I've intended to get across and did during the early days of the thread, os the power disparity. I have many, many armies. Daemons have to try harder than any of them, besides Deathwatch. It absolutely can happen, and you absolutely can do well with them. It's just harder to do than the rest. That's not by itself a negative thing.
Terrible? No.
Great? Also no.
Again, just a personal opinion. I miss added complexity for Tzeentch. I miss more powerful psychcic phases. Multiple small gripes, but again, I'm very glad it's working for you.
I could be biased as well, considering my main army is Grey Knights. At this point, literally ANYTHING is better, so I’ve been extremely pleased with how my Daemons have been succeeding. Lol
As to DS the LoC—absolutely not! He is the character protection from shooting on T1, and with a 2++ and -1 damage, he has never died T1. Even if he gets charged, I will usually have some Princes in Intervention range to clear the threat; and if that doesn’t work, he can still fly away if I need a different target for smite/gateway. Very versatile, very tough, and I have the Creature Caster model so I like that too!
Do tell, how do you get the LoC to 2++? Warpsurge and Weaver cap out at 3++ even with the impossible robe.
It's an interpretation of the rules where two of them increase your invulnerable saves by 1 to a max of 3+ but the third rule just adds 1 to your invulnerable save rolls; so you still save on a 3+ but a 1 becomes a 2, a 2 becomes a 3 and so on. Whether you can use this interpetation in a game very much depends on your opponant/the TO agreeing with you.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
there is nothing about interpretation.... robe get your save at 4+ surge get your save at 3+ so you are inside the rules lilmit, then ephimeral form wont reduce again the save it just add +1 do DICE ROLL your save is still 3++, just you have the plus 1 to dice, so is perfectly legal, then if someone wants find anytime a way to discuss well.. that have nothing to do with rules. And remember you cant re roll any dice when you have warp surge active so when you fail you fail.
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
Yeah, it's pretty explicit in game that +1 is not the same as improving by 1. +1 to hit, for example, doesn't mean 3+ goes to 2+, because it also allows for the possibility of getting 7+ in order to trigger things like nurgle abilities.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/21 16:45:09
mrhappyface wrote: Not saying I don't agree, just saying I know some people who wouldn't allow that version of the rules.
The easiest way to convince them, I would think, would be to show them some Nurgle stuff that requires 7s to activate. How do you get to a 7 on a d6? You add one to the actual roll.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
Hi all.
The Knights made me thinking. I want one in my army but too much of points to fit.
So why not borrow a Knight or another character from my enemies?
Anyone tried the power “treason of Tzeentch”? Warp charge 8 2D6 and roll higher than characters LD.
I’m building a list I want to try and trying to do this and would want some help and advice from a semi competitive to competitive view.
As of now the list it something like this.
Night lords
Chaos lord w jump pack
3x5 raptors w meltaguns, Nurgle with icon.
DP w skullreaver
DP w soulstealer and Phantasmagoria
30 pink
30 BLoodletter
10 brims
Ahriman
DP w “treason of Tzeentch”
DP DP
Raptors lower LD as does Slaneesh DP power. With “gaze of fate” I get a reroll and if needed, reroll strat.
I do know that Zarakylen got an aura of debuff LD but don’t have her and not very competitive due to points. Need some help for lower LD and still have an army that’s working even without it...
1. Treason of Tzeentch is pretty crap, compare it to the GSC Mind control:
ToT is WC8
MC is WC6,
ToT is Characters only (excluding Warlords)
MC is anyone,
ToT is beat the enemies Ld on a roll of a 2d6 MC is beat or equal the enemies Ld on a roll of a 3d6,
Tot is use the model as if it was yours for a turn
MC is use the model for a shooting or CC attack.
Treason of Tzeentch was 'meh' when we first got it and it was a piss take when GSC got their powers.
2. You've got far too many DPs in that list, max of 3.
3. You're a bit all over the place with your God units, I'd suggest picking 1 or 2 Gods and building around that, e.g. a Bloodletter bomb OR a Pink Horror bomb in a single detachment.
4. I suggest swapping a raptor unit for a Warp Talon unit with MoK and Icon of Wrath so they can jump in first and negate overwatch.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Sorry but GSC? Not a power I know about but yes, as you say, “treason” is not a good power and thus far I haven’t used it. But simply taking some Raptors with meltaguns I can shoot down a Knight AND lower it’s LD in a simple way. So why not try to use a power that by itself can turn the tide and turn that Knight or captain smash or a farseer and do some work and try killing stuff and/or killing itself?
I got 2 Gods. Khorne and Tzeentch but also a supreme command 1kSons.
2DP from Chaos Daemons
3DP from 1kSons.
It’s different data sheets and then allowed.
Tazberry wrote: Sorry but GSC? Not a power I know about but yes, as you say, “treason” is not a good power and thus far I haven’t used it. But simply taking some Raptors with meltaguns I can shoot down a Knight AND lower it’s LD in a simple way. So why not try to use a power that by itself can turn the tide and turn that Knight or captain smash or a farseer and do some work and try killing stuff and/or killing itself?
Problem is, you're putting a lot of eggs into the ToT basket when there is a small chance of it actually going off and that's if there's a suitable target for ToT.
I got 2 Gods. Khorne and Tzeentch but also a supreme command 1kSons.
I meant for you to either go with one or the other: either take a ton of Horrors for the Dakka or take a ton of Bloodletters to swamp the enemy with; then take units that support those bombs.
2DP from Chaos Daemons
3DP from 1kSons.
It’s different data sheets and then allowed.
So you can, my mistake, I for some reason thought there was an FAQ specifically calling out DPs.
Can you take an icon for Warp talons?
Again, my mistake, haven't played CSM for a while.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Well yes, this time I’m simply throwing things in and then mixture the list. Probably take horrors and leave BL on the shelf.
Was mostly thinking of a way to utilizing that power if needed let’s say vs IK or maybe Ynarri. But to do that better I need too lower the targets LD..
I mostly play Tzeentch and a little Csm and thinking about turning too 1kSons As I like psychic powers.
Not that I know of. All the DPs are slightly different in powers and wargear. Warbolters cost 9 for daemons but the rest is only 3.
treason of tz is one of worst spell, if you base your strategy on it you need tons of luck, you want a IK, take off the useless chaos outrider (raptors are crap) and 1 dp and you have room for a nice IK with 2 gatlings and missile pod, 100 thousand better of 15 raptors.
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
hit the 
Four Pinks come back, getting me to 26 models. Heh. The Commander in 
8500
1500
2000
5000
