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spaceclown wrote:
Alright I've been out of the game for a long time now...

The 40k Match Play FAQ rules are 'beta.' Meaning that half of your Power Level total needs to be on the table. Where are the limits of Turn1 deepstrike everyone keeps talking about? What are the limits of using stratagems to deepstrike my letters and horrors? Can anyone point me in the right direction of getting caught up with the current rules?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/16/warhammer-40000-big-faq-1-the-low-downgw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/

 gwarsh41 wrote:

spaceclown wrote:
Alright I've been out of the game for a long time now...

The 40k Match Play FAQ rules are 'beta.' Meaning that half of your Power Level total needs to be on the table. Where are the limits of Turn1 deepstrike everyone keeps talking about? What are the limits of using stratagems to deepstrike my letters and horrors? Can anyone point me in the right direction of getting caught up with the current rules?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/16/warhammer-40000-big-faq-1-the-low-downgw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/

Thank you!

So the Psychic Focus and Targeting Characters is official. The First Turn within deployment is still Beta.

Yes its still in beta but as far as i can tell everyone uses it.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I don't think the "doesn't belong in smaller games" thing works very well in this edition. If the big units aren't worth their points, being part of a huge game isn't going to change that IMO.

Locally we use power level in apoc and most games over 3K. Those games are also more about just putting your whole collection down, so the sub par pointed units show up pretty often. Plus, I've never been to a competitive apoc game, though I have seen a WAAC player at an apoc game, and they did not have a good time lol.

What is everyone's thoughts on the best daemon prince? I'm bringing a small nurgling battalion with a poxbringer and daemon prince for some DG support. I realized that the locus might not help me too much, would a khorne axe DP be a better choice?

Sooooo there are a lot of options when it comes to demon princes, but as far as Codex: Demons princes are concerned:

* Nurgle Demon Prince w/ Virulent Blessing, Corruption, Claw, wings - While it only gets 4 attacks with the sword, each has the capability of being D7 (D3 damage x 2 + 1 on a roll of a 6). Top it off with AP -3, and reroll all hits and wounds at Str 9.... hes hurting everything in the game currently on a 2+ with blessing. Great character hunter or tank hunter.
* Nurgle Demon Prince w/ Blessing or Miasma, Double Claws, Nurgles horn (if you want a relic), wings - Great troop mower that can replenish your PLaguebearer units. Miasma makes him harder to kill, while blessing helps him kill more effectively because he does not get rerolls on wounds. As well, can be D5 each attack (with 7 attacks, you do the math)
* Khorne Demon Prince w/ Skullreaver and wings - Character assassin or titan hunter, dudes a monster. I would not, however, run a battalion of Khorne; at most a patrol. They just don't have great troop options like Tzeentch or Nurgle.

Those are probably the best builds I can think of from Codex: Demons. Sadly Tzeentch princes in 1k Sons codex are the best, and honestly Codex: CSM Slaanesh prince is better than his demons counterpart because of the Elixir and Diabolic Strength (makes him 9 Str 9 attacks... pretty bonkers). Nurgle Demon Princes between DG and Nurgle are equally as good, just depends on your army composition to be honest.


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Azuza001 wrote:
Yes its still in beta but as far as i can tell everyone uses it.

Yes, because its most likely going to be official because the T1 deepstrikes as they were were pretty broken. Now only certain armies can do it, and it makes mobile armies more desirable (pre-faq you would never see slaanesh armies, now they are way better.... still rare, but way better)

Isn't the Slaanesh Prince actually strength 10? 7 base + 2 from Diabolic Strength + 1 from Elixir?

if he casts diabolic strenght yes he is str 10

Sokhar wrote:
Isn't the Slaanesh Prince actually strength 10? 7 base + 2 from Diabolic Strength + 1 from Elixir?

Yes, sorry

Has anyone tested the relic "Skullreaver" against the new Imperial Knights?

 tokugawa wrote:
Has anyone tested the relic "Skullreaver" against the new Imperial Knights?

It works. It works real well. Although, i've found that a CSM axe prince buffed out the butt with psychic buffs is just as effective. That being said, if you want 100% khorne fluff and forgo all psychics, take it for sure, it's almost a NEED against Titans as a Khorne army.

cant be as effective... axe has not ap-4 gives not +3 str doesn't deal d6 damage+mortal wounds doesn't let you re roll failed wounds against titanic models and last but not least skullreaver works with no need to use psy powers or stratagems (both can be denied), so no, skullreaver Dp is unique.

Can any Tzeentch Daemon players chime in on which units/combo's worked for them?

I like the LoC on the look of the model but it's a shame he can only cast two spells..

Going with a Pink Horror blob as Tactical Reserve Turn 2.

PInk horrors, brimstones, herald. Yeah that about cover it.

spaceclown wrote:
Can any Tzeentch Daemon players chime in on which units/combo's worked for them?

I like the LoC on the look of the model but it's a shame he can only cast two spells..

Going with a Pink Horror blob as Tactical Reserve Turn 2.

LOC is pretty good, though not an amazing must have if you make him the warlord and give him impossible robe for 3++/2++. Most of the Tzeentch spells kind of suck anyways so limited spells isn't too painful and his casting bonus is useful for the hard to cast spells like flickering fire. I typically use mine with sword, infernal gateway, and flickering fire but you can easily do a support build with rod, fire, and boon of change.

huh filckering fire hard to cast at 5+ really?

 blackmage wrote:
huh filckering fire hard to cast at 5+ really?

My bad, don't have codex in front of me. I just remember a couple spells cast on 7 or 8.

spaceclown wrote:
Can any Tzeentch Daemon players chime in on which units/combo's worked for them?

I like the LoC on the look of the model but it's a shame he can only cast two spells..

Going with a Pink Horror blob as Tactical Reserve Turn 2.

The obvious combo is the 20-30 Pink Horrors w/ Changecaster and Daemon Prince nearby utilizing Daemonspark, Flickering Fire, and even Boon of Change. Don't discount Flamers either, since they can drop is 9-12" away and flame on out to 12." I have done a PInk Horror, Flamer and Changecaster bomb to great effect, since you are capitalizing on the Changecaster +1 Str, and the re-roll wounds of 1 from Daemonspark.

I also like running a DP with Screamers as a 1, 2 punch melee/screen combo.

I like taking a small Spearhead Detachment of Tsons, a TSon Deamon Prince and 3 Mutalith Vortex Beasts if you want to stick with the pure (ish) deamons idea. Well, they will look like deamons on the table anyways. Mutaliths can really REALLY make Tzeentch Deamons scary.

Azuza001 wrote:
I like taking a small Spearhead Detachment of Tsons, a TSon Deamon Prince and 3 Mutalith Vortex Beasts if you want to stick with the pure (ish) deamons idea. Well, they will look like deamons on the table anyways. Mutaliths can really REALLY make Tzeentch Deamons scary.

That's a nice idea, however 3 mutaliths is a bit much...Because just...Yeah. I don't forsee a lot of people dumping that much cash on 3 mono-build monster units.

Maybe not three of a kind? A couple of Maulerfiends, throw Warptime and Diabolical Strength, maybe Glamour as well on one of them... if your Horrors open a decent hole in the enemy line, that could be a bit of a pain. If you’re a fan of the aesthetic of Screamers, Idoneth Deepkin present some interesting project options for building them. Maybe not tourney tier, but seems likely viable for casual play.

My spearhead normally runs Dp, 2 mutalith, and a defiler, but again i was suggesting while keeping with the spirit of deamons and the defiler starts getting into chaos marines land.

I have also had a lot of luck running multiple solid detachments of chaos, like 1 detachment pure slaanesh, 1 pure khorne, and 1 pure tzeentch at a time. Gives everyone their bonuses and each has a roll. Slaanesh is to hit first. Then khorne is able to hit hard, while tzeentch covers fire support / harassment issues.

The idea of a pure deamon list (just one God and only deamons) is too much of a handycap this edition.

Azuza001 wrote:
My spearhead normally runs Dp, 2 mutalith, and a defiler, but again i was suggesting while keeping with the spirit of deamons and the defiler starts getting into chaos marines land.

I have also had a lot of luck running multiple solid detachments of chaos, like 1 detachment pure slaanesh, 1 pure khorne, and 1 pure tzeentch at a time. Gives everyone their bonuses and each has a roll. Slaanesh is to hit first. Then khorne is able to hit hard, while tzeentch covers fire support / harassment issues.

The idea of a pure deamon list (just one God and only deamons) is too much of a handycap this edition.

I appreciate that! Thank you! I'll add these mutaliths to my list. It is a handicap but I like the fluff too mic

 Zid wrote:
Sooooo there are a lot of options when it comes to demon princes, but as far as Codex: Demons princes are concerned:

* Nurgle Demon Prince w/ Virulent Blessing, Corruption, Claw, wings - While it only gets 4 attacks with the sword, each has the capability of being D7 (D3 damage x 2 + 1 on a roll of a 6). Top it off with AP -3, and reroll all hits and wounds at Str 9.... hes hurting everything in the game currently on a 2+ with blessing. Great character hunter or tank hunter.
* Nurgle Demon Prince w/ Blessing or Miasma, Double Claws, Nurgles horn (if you want a relic), wings - Great troop mower that can replenish your PLaguebearer units. Miasma makes him harder to kill, while blessing helps him kill more effectively because he does not get rerolls on wounds. As well, can be D5 each attack (with 7 attacks, you do the math)
* Khorne Demon Prince w/ Skullreaver and wings - Character assassin or titan hunter, dudes a monster. I would not, however, run a battalion of Khorne; at most a patrol. They just don't have great troop options like Tzeentch or Nurgle.

Those are probably the best builds I can think of from Codex: Demons. Sadly Tzeentch princes in 1k Sons codex are the best, and honestly Codex: CSM Slaanesh prince is better than his demons counterpart because of the Elixir and Diabolic Strength (makes him 9 Str 9 attacks... pretty bonkers). Nurgle Demon Princes between DG and Nurgle are equally as good, just depends on your army composition to be honest.

That got me thinking about an army with all the best DPs:



The list feels "dirty" and isn't very subtle, but if someone is bringing a lot of Titans...

 Zid wrote:
I would not, however, run a battalion of Khorne; at most a patrol. They just don't have great troop options like Tzeentch or Nurgle.

I contest this! Bloodletter bombs are definitely still a thing and are fantastic when facing any army without invulnerable saves on their troops, they're even pretty good at taking down knights (with a DP and Skarbrand, a 20 man unit will destroy an unwounded Knight on the charge).

Quite a lot of the time, a late game Bloodletter bomb will devastate your opponent when they know longer have enough units to screen against them.

bloodletter bomb is still fine, if in the september FAQ they will bring back 1st turn DS like pre faq they will be a powerhorse like before and will change meta again.

I can only hope between the September FAQ and the next Chapter Approved something happens to bring my Daemons off the shelf. I've missed my Tzeentch boys.

Demons are still competitive, but not lists like mono Tzeentch

I, respectfully, disagree with that definition of competitive, but am glad if they're working well enough for you to feel that way.

Genuinely.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I, respectfully, disagree with that definition of competitive, but am glad if they're working well enough for you to feel that way.

Genuinely.

well you can disagree but tournament results speak clearly (mine and others around the world), im sorry if they destroyed your brimstone+character spam list, sincerely

Yes, forgive me, a handful of *Nurgle* lists have been able to place within the top 8 of a fair few major events according to the larger BCP events that I looked through online.

Trying to be snarky about Brimstones/Characters doesn't bother me, i'm not losing sleep over a facet of an army, I'm upset about the other 3 arms of the faction not functioning on par with not only the fourth, but the other factions in the game as it stands.

You'll find I worded what I wrote very specifically, and said I hope chapter approved makes some changes for *my* Daemons, and that I miss my *Tzeentch Daemons*.

I'm glad Nurgles doing well. Thrilled for them, even. However, to me that feels more like saying "Custodes are really strong!" when the correct statement is that Custodes bikes, specifically, are doing quite well.

what they should do to make again "your" demons playable?