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yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, VH is the best boost to them, which is a bit awkward since VH doesn't initially seem to be all that promising.

The other awkward thing about paragons is they effectively lock you out of taking while we stand (or I guess in the very best scenario limit you to 10 on it), an extremely powerful secondary that a lot of the best lists build around right now.


Is it though? Exactly which AP-1 or AP-2 weapons is a 2+ save T5 model with -1 damage worried about?

Paragon battle suits are incredibly resilient to anything VH could help them against already and VH doesn't help at all against the things your opponent's going to kill them with.

Paragons should almost always be either bloody rose or argent shroud simply because they're so fragile against the weapons that prey on them, nothing you do is going to help defensively. You should just sell out entirely on their offensive output and hope you can use good positioning and target priority to kill what kills them before they get blapped.

Which is why you should always take meltas tbh. It's the best shot they have at killing the things that would otherwise kill them. The extra 30pts does make them even more of a target, but at least now they have a fighting chance against something like Raiders.

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Ork Rockets. AP-2, D3.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
Ork Rockets. AP-2, D3.

Autocannons and Heavy Bolters are good vs Paragons as well which lets them.save heavier weapons for things like Rhinos, Vahl or any tanks.
   
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ERJAK wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, VH is the best boost to them, which is a bit awkward since VH doesn't initially seem to be all that promising.

The other awkward thing about paragons is they effectively lock you out of taking while we stand (or I guess in the very best scenario limit you to 10 on it), an extremely powerful secondary that a lot of the best lists build around right now.


Is it though? Exactly which AP-1 or AP-2 weapons is a 2+ save T5 model with -1 damage worried about?

Paragon battle suits are incredibly resilient to anything VH could help them against already and VH doesn't help at all against the things your opponent's going to kill them with.

Paragons should almost always be either bloody rose or argent shroud simply because they're so fragile against the weapons that prey on them, nothing you do is going to help defensively. You should just sell out entirely on their offensive output and hope you can use good positioning and target priority to kill what kills them before they get blapped.

Which is why you should always take meltas tbh. It's the best shot they have at killing the things that would otherwise kill them. The extra 30pts does make them even more of a target, but at least now they have a fighting chance against something like Raiders.


Uh if something has -1 damage, 1 damage weapons are literally one of the best things to shoot them with. Even massed AP 1 fire threatens paragons with enough volume. (Edit: Vanguard strat doesn't work on them because they're vehicles, derp, but even without it they still are quite threatening). VH halves the damage they take from AP1 fire, meaning that all you have to worry about is anti-tank weapons; the big problem with paragon suits is that they're vulnerable BOTH to massed small arms fire *and* to anti-tank, so taking half of that out of the equation is a big deal IMO.

And the 5++ is actually relevant vs bombers too, which otherwise eat up paragons, because the combination of multiple models and VEHICLE is just brutal otherwise. - a bomber kills a paragon on average just flying over the squad, but not with the 5++.

I mean, we're all on the same page here that they're not actually immune to 1 damage weapons, right, just like they're not actually 240 points a model?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just realized that to an attempt an action you can't be in engagement range, so Celestine can't heal herself while in combat - and also can't heal herself if she falls back, since that also prohibits actions.

Makes her way riskier and less useful a pick IMO.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 05:34:33


 
   
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Celestine is very well balanced considering how much harder she is to kill, her ability to deep strike and the fact she can use that jumpack redeploy strat.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Celestine is very well balanced considering how much harder she is to kill, her ability to deep strike and the fact she can use that jumpack redeploy strat.


Honestly, she is how she should be. I hated her 8th book rules.

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dammit wrote:
indomitable belief is order core infantry and the hymn is core infantry or character, no order lock.

in the book there are no infantry with shield of faith that are neither core or character, but none of the characters are core.


The hymn is just CORE or CHARACTER, so it can affect the warsuits. 3 model unit _could_ be hard to hide if you don't go first though.

Part of the reason the Admech defensive rules are so strong is they can be used if your opponent goes first and they're no conditional.

Theoretically you could have the warsuits as a 5++ and a neg 1 to hit or no rerolls, but if you go second then you can't add any of the buffs. Might be fine with good terrain, might not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 08:00:49


 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, VH is the best boost to them, which is a bit awkward since VH doesn't initially seem to be all that promising.

The other awkward thing about paragons is they effectively lock you out of taking while we stand (or I guess in the very best scenario limit you to 10 on it), an extremely powerful secondary that a lot of the best lists build around right now.


Is it though? Exactly which AP-1 or AP-2 weapons is a 2+ save T5 model with -1 damage worried about?

Paragon battle suits are incredibly resilient to anything VH could help them against already and VH doesn't help at all against the things your opponent's going to kill them with.

Paragons should almost always be either bloody rose or argent shroud simply because they're so fragile against the weapons that prey on them, nothing you do is going to help defensively. You should just sell out entirely on their offensive output and hope you can use good positioning and target priority to kill what kills them before they get blapped.

Which is why you should always take meltas tbh. It's the best shot they have at killing the things that would otherwise kill them. The extra 30pts does make them even more of a target, but at least now they have a fighting chance against something like Raiders.


Uh if something has -1 damage, 1 damage weapons are literally one of the best things to shoot them with. Even massed AP 1 fire threatens paragons with enough volume. (Edit: Vanguard strat doesn't work on them because they're vehicles, derp, but even without it they still are quite threatening). VH halves the damage they take from AP1 fire, meaning that all you have to worry about is anti-tank weapons; the big problem with paragon suits is that they're vulnerable BOTH to massed small arms fire *and* to anti-tank, so taking half of that out of the equation is a big deal IMO.

And the 5++ is actually relevant vs bombers too, which otherwise eat up paragons, because the combination of multiple models and VEHICLE is just brutal otherwise. - a bomber kills a paragon on average just flying over the squad, but not with the 5++.

I mean, we're all on the same page here that they're not actually immune to 1 damage weapons, right, just like they're not actually 240 points a model?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just realized that to an attempt an action you can't be in engagement range, so Celestine can't heal herself while in combat - and also can't heal herself if she falls back, since that also prohibits actions.

Makes her way riskier and less useful a pick IMO.


Don't only 2 factions take bombers? And one of them it's pretty rare?

As for small arms, I still don't think they matter that much to Paragons, even outside of VH. The only other vehicles we're likely to have on the field are Rhinos and Mortifiers/Pengines. Mortifiers are a much better target for small arms fire and Taking Vahl AND Paragons means you just don't have the points to overload your opponent's anti-tank with Rhino chassis. I.e. Your opponent will almost always have anti-tank to shoot at them.

To me it seems like their inbuilt defenses are plenty to survive sub-optimal weapons. Their offensive capabilities are far more suspect so the extra flexibility of Argent Shroud or the extra DPS of Bloody Rose seem like the more efficient value add.

Though to be fair, the entire discussion hinges on Paragons being competitively viable in the first place, which...meh? Probably not.

As for Celestine... the idea of her healing to full and resurrecting a geminae every turn for free while in combat is as ridiculous as her -1 damage not having a minimum 1. She's basically unkillable as it is outside of the 1 in 6 chance you have at failing her rez. More annoying is the fact that, judging by what I could tell from the Codex Reviews, she's lost an attack as payment for her mortal wound ability. Her and Vahl still represent almost guaranteed 10pts for While We Stand We Fight.

Which brings me to our secondaries. ROD is a guaranteed 12pts with 2 units of Deadly Descent handflamer Seraphim (which is probably why DD doesn't work on inferno pistols anymore) and WWSWF is close to a guaranteed 10 if you bring Celestine and Vahl and play smart. The problem is finding a 3rd expensive unit that isn't likely to get toasted. 20 BSS maybe? Sacred Grounds is Criminally easy in some missions and Leap of Faith isn't particularly difficult to max for Either Sacred Rose or OOML. Defend the Shrine isn't too hard on certain missions and could force your opponent to over commit to one side of the board. Slay the Heretic you can somewhat reliably get 10pts out of but killing something with a Flamer weapon 3 turns out of 5 is pretty tough if you want to max it.

Our biggest weakness as far as secondaries go is that our most 'guaranteed' options are in No Mercy, No Respite and Shadow Operations. This leaves us somewhat at our opponents mercy. Engage on all fronts is never a bad option but it's pretty hard to max. Purge the enemy requires your opponent to overload on certain unit types OR requires you to bring enough of the holy trinity to have a reasonable shot at flamer kills 3 out of 5 turns.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 10:25:37


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Ad Mech, Dark Eldar and Tau all have bombers and mortals in the movement phase are a great way to soften targets (which Dark Eldar can do by flying past a unit with more than just bombers).
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Ork Rockets. AP-2, D3.

Autocannons and Heavy Bolters are good vs Paragons as well which lets them.save heavier weapons for things like Rhinos, Vahl or any tanks.


It takes 27 standard Autocannon shots and 36 heavy bolter shots to kill one Paragon(assuming BS3). Both are better off shooting Rhinos (12 and 18 shots for the same number of wounds repectively).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Ad Mech, Dark Eldar and Tau all have bombers and mortals in the movement phase are a great way to soften targets (which Dark Eldar can do by flying past a unit with more than just bombers).


Tau never take their planes and Ad Mech lists exclude bombers as often or more as they include them.

They're a threat for sure, but building your conviction around mitigating them is a bit bold. Besides, Argent Shroud still lets you dodge mortal on a 4++ if you really need it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 10:46:04


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Tau don't currently take their bombers but never dismiss something strictly on it not currently being used. It's worth being aware of at least.

And again my point wasn't what makes the strongest army, but what buff benefits them the most.

Frankly I don't like how incredibly fragile they are for their points when a melta is even waved vaguely in their direction. When each costs nearly as much as a Rhino you kind of expect more mileage out of them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 11:31:25


 
   
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s7 ap-1 d2 is almost a uniquely awful statline to throw at paragons.
   
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dammit wrote:
s7 ap-1 d2 is almost a uniquely awful statline to throw at paragons.

Let's not forget that some of these weapons can be buffed by things like Devastator Doctrines.
   
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Picked up my codex today, and i'm getting super hyped about order of our martyred lady, also I picked up some paints for the theme.

Something I noticed; miracle dice are only generated by 'Adepta Sororitas' units, and penintent engines dont have that keyword. Maybe a typo, because mortifiers do have that keyword.

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 Spreelock wrote:
Picked up my codex today, and i'm getting super hyped about order of our martyred lady, also I picked up some paints for the theme.

Something I noticed; miracle dice are only generated by 'Adepta Sororitas' units, and penintent engines dont have that keyword. Maybe a typo, because mortifiers do have that keyword.
Because Mortifiers are piloted by disgraced Repentia and Penitent engines are piloted by non-sister sinners.
   
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 Spreelock wrote:
Picked up my codex today, and i'm getting super hyped about order of our martyred lady, also I picked up some paints for the theme.

Something I noticed; miracle dice are only generated by 'Adepta Sororitas' units, and penintent engines dont have that keyword. Maybe a typo, because mortifiers do have that keyword.

Probably not since Penitent Engines are criminals and heretics, while Mortifiers are Repentia who failed to repent (such as fleeing battle instead of dying like the religious zealots they're supposed to be).
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
I dunno, the Acts of Faith one encourages you you to churn your miracle dice instead of actually using them where and when they're most important. If you go SR yeah obviously you'll make it without even trying, but otherwise with the overall nerfs to MD generation I would be pretty hesitant to commit to a secondary that requires you to burn them, especially one that encourages you to burn them on your opponent's turn, which is not generally where you get the most value from them.


The other problem with A Leap of Faith is that it does cap you at 12 VP instead of 15 for a secondary. Slay the Heretic, meanwhile, potentially doubles up with other kill-based secondaries.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Spreelock wrote:
Picked up my codex today, and i'm getting super hyped about order of our martyred lady, also I picked up some paints for the theme.

Something I noticed; miracle dice are only generated by 'Adepta Sororitas' units, and penintent engines dont have that keyword. Maybe a typo, because mortifiers do have that keyword.

Probably not since Penitent Engines are criminals and heretics, while Mortifiers are Repentia who failed to repent (such as fleeing battle instead of dying like the religious zealots they're supposed to be).


Which is honestly like the top end of what battle sisters become repentia for. One of the sisters in Faith and Fire became a repentia because a psyker made her feel sad one time.

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ERJAK wrote:
As for Celestine... the idea of her healing to full and resurrecting a geminae every turn for free while in combat is as ridiculous as her -1 damage not having a minimum 1. She's basically unkillable as it is outside of the 1 in 6 chance you have at failing her rez. More annoying is the fact that, judging by what I could tell from the Codex Reviews, she's lost an attack as payment for her mortal wound ability. Her and Vahl still represent almost guaranteed 10pts for While We Stand We Fight.


She's had 6 attacks since the 8E codex; there's no change here.
   
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ERJAK wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Spreelock wrote:
Picked up my codex today, and i'm getting super hyped about order of our martyred lady, also I picked up some paints for the theme.

Something I noticed; miracle dice are only generated by 'Adepta Sororitas' units, and penintent engines dont have that keyword. Maybe a typo, because mortifiers do have that keyword.

Probably not since Penitent Engines are criminals and heretics, while Mortifiers are Repentia who failed to repent (such as fleeing battle instead of dying like the religious zealots they're supposed to be).


Which is honestly like the top end of what battle sisters become repentia for. One of the sisters in Faith and Fire became a repentia because a psyker made her feel sad one time.

It was more that she failed in her duties even momentarily because of the psyker, but sure, let's reduce plot points to nonsense.
   
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Taikishi wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I dunno, the Acts of Faith one encourages you you to churn your miracle dice instead of actually using them where and when they're most important. If you go SR yeah obviously you'll make it without even trying, but otherwise with the overall nerfs to MD generation I would be pretty hesitant to commit to a secondary that requires you to burn them, especially one that encourages you to burn them on your opponent's turn, which is not generally where you get the most value from them.


The other problem with A Leap of Faith is that it does cap you at 12 VP instead of 15 for a secondary. Slay the Heretic, meanwhile, potentially doubles up with other kill-based secondaries.


If you can actually get it. Even with everything getting +1S flamers still aren't exactly crazy lethal and bolt weapons aren't necessarily a sure thing either.

I tend to prefer secondaries that take my opponent out of the equation. I don't mind losing out on 3VP max if it means nothing my opponent does can stop me.

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ERJAK wrote:
Taikishi wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I dunno, the Acts of Faith one encourages you you to churn your miracle dice instead of actually using them where and when they're most important. If you go SR yeah obviously you'll make it without even trying, but otherwise with the overall nerfs to MD generation I would be pretty hesitant to commit to a secondary that requires you to burn them, especially one that encourages you to burn them on your opponent's turn, which is not generally where you get the most value from them.


The other problem with A Leap of Faith is that it does cap you at 12 VP instead of 15 for a secondary. Slay the Heretic, meanwhile, potentially doubles up with other kill-based secondaries.


If you can actually get it. Even with everything getting +1S flamers still aren't exactly crazy lethal and bolt weapons aren't necessarily a sure thing either.

I tend to prefer secondaries that take my opponent out of the equation. I don't mind losing out on 3VP max if it means nothing my opponent does can stop me.

Yeah, maxing on secondaries isn't a sure thing so it's usually better to aim for one you know you can score 10-12 points reliably for than one you can score 15 on when the stars align.
   
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Taikishi wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
As for Celestine... the idea of her healing to full and resurrecting a geminae every turn for free while in combat is as ridiculous as her -1 damage not having a minimum 1. She's basically unkillable as it is outside of the 1 in 6 chance you have at failing her rez. More annoying is the fact that, judging by what I could tell from the Codex Reviews, she's lost an attack as payment for her mortal wound ability. Her and Vahl still represent almost guaranteed 10pts for While We Stand We Fight.


She's had 6 attacks since the 8E codex; there's no change here.


She has five in the codex I saw. It was a bit blurry so I might be wrong but it really looked like a 5.

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ERJAK wrote:
Taikishi wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
As for Celestine... the idea of her healing to full and resurrecting a geminae every turn for free while in combat is as ridiculous as her -1 damage not having a minimum 1. She's basically unkillable as it is outside of the 1 in 6 chance you have at failing her rez. More annoying is the fact that, judging by what I could tell from the Codex Reviews, she's lost an attack as payment for her mortal wound ability. Her and Vahl still represent almost guaranteed 10pts for While We Stand We Fight.


She's had 6 attacks since the 8E codex; there's no change here.


She has five in the codex I saw. It was a bit blurry so I might be wrong but it really looked like a 5.

Screencap from the Mob Rule vid shows a 6.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Taikishi wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
As for Celestine... the idea of her healing to full and resurrecting a geminae every turn for free while in combat is as ridiculous as her -1 damage not having a minimum 1. She's basically unkillable as it is outside of the 1 in 6 chance you have at failing her rez. More annoying is the fact that, judging by what I could tell from the Codex Reviews, she's lost an attack as payment for her mortal wound ability. Her and Vahl still represent almost guaranteed 10pts for While We Stand We Fight.


She's had 6 attacks since the 8E codex; there's no change here.


She has five in the codex I saw. It was a bit blurry so I might be wrong but it really looked like a 5.

Screencap from the Mob Rule vid shows a 6.


Cool, happy to be wrong.

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ERJAK wrote:

Which brings me to our secondaries. ROD is a guaranteed 12pts with 2 units of Deadly Descent handflamer Seraphim (which is probably why DD doesn't work on inferno pistols anymore)


Deadly Descent got nerfed to only work at the end of the movement phase. You can't use one squad to make room for the other any more. ROD is actually quite difficult to score 12 on against a decent opponent who you aren't tabling, it is very easy for most opponents to screen out deep strikers from a quarter due to the "more than 6" from another table quarter" language making the zone you have to get to to start the action extremely specific. It ends up being a 17"x24" rectangle at the far corner of each quarter - you can screen that out with a single unit of 5 models from a standard 9" deep strike.

Seraphim are still a good choice for it because they are the best thing in the sisters book for realistically getting where they need to go due to their high movement and FLY, but they can still be screened out physically with bodies if there's nowhere you can fly them to that won't be in engagement range.

It's an extremely reliable 8, but getting the full 12 when you aren't in a "win more" situation is often actually pretty tricky.

edit: Fixed math, hadn't had my coffee yet.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 16:21:07


 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
ERJAK wrote:

Which brings me to our secondaries. ROD is a guaranteed 12pts with 2 units of Deadly Descent handflamer Seraphim (which is probably why DD doesn't work on inferno pistols anymore)


Deadly Descent got nerfed to only work at the end of the movement phase. You can't use one squad to make room for the other any more. ROD is actually quite difficult to score 12 on against a decent opponent who you aren't tabling, it is very easy for most opponents to screen out deep strikers from a quarter due to the "more than 6" from another table quarter" language making the zone you have to get to to start the action extremely specific. It ends up being a 17"x24" rectangle at the far corner of each quarter - you can screen that out with a single unit of 5 models from a standard 9" deep strike.

Seraphim are still a good choice for it because they are the best thing in the sisters book for realistically getting where they need to go due to their high movement and FLY, but they can still be screened out physically with bodies if there's nowhere you can fly them to that won't be in engagement range.

It's an extremely reliable 8, but getting the full 12 when you aren't in a "win more" situation is often actually pretty tricky.

edit: Fixed math, hadn't had my coffee yet.


If the terrain is such that you can't easily clear the screeners, chances are you'll have an opporunity to place the Seraphim somewhere safe and move them into position the next turn. Also, as much as people would protest otherwise, only about the top half of players would think to do that and not all of them would successfully execute the block. Chances are your first 2 games at any event you'll get it no problem.

Though I do concede the point that it being quarters rather than thirds does make it quite a bit harder than what 'guaranteed' would suggest. An opponent who knows what they're doing could stifle you with relatively low investment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 19:03:40


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Played with the Codex now a few more matches.

ERJAK will hate me for saying this, will probably target me with nasty comments, and might even PM me in anger again, but...I like this one better than the 8th codex. Way more depth than that one.

I also don't feel like I'm soaking the fun out of the room by running Repentia and Retributors in numbers with how terribly balanced they were. Meta-skewing pics, no matter how powerful, are never fun.

Unfortunately I'm feeling like Morvenn Vahl is way too good. It's not hard to use and maximize a character that can contribute as a force multiplier, has solid shooting, and rocks in melee. No real difficult in making her a star in every match.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 19:37:07


 
   
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I've emailed GW about raising Vahl's points and I assume others will as well. We won't see an update until at least July though
   
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ERJAK wrote:


Though I do concede the point that it being quarters rather than thirds does make it quite a bit harder than what 'guaranteed' would suggest. An opponent who knows what they're doing could stifle you with relatively low investment.


Not just quarters, quarters with a 6"x6" cross going through the center of the table blocking out all that space. That rider is what makes the difference, without that it would be much easier and probably would be close to a guaranteed 12.

It's one of those things you don't really appreciate till you play a few games with it. It's a very reliable 8 for almost any list, but getting the full 12 is sometimes surprisingly difficult depending on your opponent. So you can't really bank on more than 8 from it when you're building your list, unless you really go heavy into mobility, which is not something sisters are very suited towards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 19:58:55


 
   
 
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