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Considering that 240 point model isn't even clear and cut RAW, you would be hard pressed to find a TO which rules it like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Come on, EVERY TO enforces house rules. The ITC/ETC/whatever formats, ban to some conversions or non GW models, time limitations and demanding a copy of the original codexes are the most common ones, none of them is a GW rule.

Yukishiro1's example is also a good one: not all the TOs allowed 10ppm reavers, and yet there was no possible confusion there unlike the case of Warsuits.

Using VPs as tiebreakers is an houserule too, so we can safely state that no TO leaves home without at least an house rule.

Time limits alone are a house rule if you really want to get down to it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Time limits alone are a house rule if you really want to get down to it.

This whole discussion is why large events put a month long moratorium on new books.

ERJAK wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Time limits alone are a house rule if you really want to get down to it.

This whole discussion is why large events put a month long moratorium on new books.

Probably going to be two months now that GW bumped back the FAQ date.

We can all agree that Warsuits need to be faqed.

Anyway assumning they're 80ppm base, would you take them as an alternative to Mortifiers? Which one of those units do you prefer? To me they're very similar.

I feel Paragons are simply to expensive for a multi-wound model without an decent invul save that doesn't have obscene damage output to be worth the cost.

They are simply going to eat a round of AT fire and die before doing anything.

For 80pts, they needed to be infantry w/move and shoot heavy. Not being able to get them to 5++/4++ is killer.

Yes, I'm not convinced that multi melta are the best choice for warsuits as this will make them even more tempting a target.
Still not sure what shooting option would be best for them.

For melee though it has to be the swords. I was tempted by the Maces but when I ran the numbers, the extra attack, and better to hit and better AP makes sword better vs all infantry targets and against vehicles the sword is still within 2% of the performance of the mace. (except against death guard vehicles or other vehicles with - 1 dmg)

they do have the celestian keyword so you could pop the +1 to hit strat. That would obv also benefit the sword but to a lesser extent than the mace.

Also, I ran some number against terminators (regular/deathwing/blightlord) and the mace handles all three of those better.

I think the paragon warsuits look cool but seem to be virtually unplayable. They are just worse than mortifiers in almost every regard.

If you take them I think you have to take melta or why wouldn't you just take mortifiers instead.

From their stats the only difference is the warsuit has 1 less attack(really 2 if you use the mace) and the warsuit has a 4w 2+/6++ vs a 5w 4+/5+++ defensive profile.

For comparisons sake I'm assuming the mortifier has the buzz blades cause there isn't a paragon comparable to the flails.

So offensively in melee the suits have str6 ap -3 d2 4A with the blade or str9 ap-4 d3 3A(-1 to hit)
Mortifiers have str8 ap-4 d2 5A

Ranged mortifiers either get 2 heavy flamers or 2 heavy bolters. Warsuits get storm bolters/grenade launchers and 1 of the holy trinity. Due to morts getting twice the HB or HF I think you'd have to go melta to make them unique/better than twice the shots..

So for 20-30 more points than a mortifier you are at best comparable. So why pay a 25% tax when you can take a unit that does almost everything(sometimes better) but cheaper.

You'd have to really need that -1 damage to be effective, but the weapons that will shoot these units are likely to be anti-tank, and todays anti-tank weapons average 5 damage which kills a paragon outright but doesn't kill a mortifier..

Your meta would have to be almost exclusively D2 weapons and small arms fire, for the paragon to be relevant.

Mortifiers and PEs don't have <CORE>, don't get sacred rights, and can't use miracle dice and resist psychic powers (along with not getting the 6++ you referenced).

I do think Paragon suits aren't very good, but that's why they're so expensive in comparison - you're building in the costs of getting full hits and wounds rerolls from Vahl's disaster of a buff, from being able to miracle dice charges and damage rolls, etc etc.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Mortifiers and PEs don't have <CORE>, don't get sacred rights, and can't use miracle dice and resist psychic powers (along with not getting the 6++ you referenced).

I do think Paragon suits aren't very good, but that's why they're so expensive in comparison - you're building in the costs of getting full hits and wounds rerolls from Vahl's disaster of a buff, from being able to miracle dice charges and damage rolls, etc etc.

Not gonna happen with so few MDs thrown around

If you give them meltas, of course you're going to be miracle dicing damage rolls in the appropriate situation, what is the point otherwise? The best thing about sisters melta is being able to gaurantee exactly the damage you need to kill something when it's absolutely critical that something dies. It's rare you actually do it, but it's a massive thing to be able to do when it really matters.

But see above re: me agreeing they aren't very good.

Big fan of the thinking that there'll be less than 3 miracle dice every game now.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Mortifiers and PEs don't have <CORE>, don't get sacred rights, and can't use miracle dice and resist psychic powers (along with not getting the 6++ you referenced).

I do think Paragon suits aren't very good, but that's why they're so expensive in comparison - you're building in the costs of getting full hits and wounds rerolls from Vahl's disaster of a buff, from being able to miracle dice charges and damage rolls, etc etc.

You missed the most important one.

They don't have ORDER.

Paragons in BR are scary.
In SR they have plenty of MD.
In AS they can advance and shoot with Melta, while also having inbuilt rerolls.
And so on...

Order is the most important keyword in the SoB dex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dammit wrote:
Big fan of the thinking that there'll be less than 3 miracle dice every game now.

My list has around 40 in a 2k game.

Gotta love Sacred Rose.

I don't think Paragons are an auto-include by any stretch of the imagination, but saying they are garbage is also a bit of a stretch. The CORE and ORDER keywords, as others have pointed out, are a big point in their favor, and the 2+ armor save and -1 damage means small weapons that could threaten a Mortifier won't really bother Paragons at all.

Also, I can't remember off the top of my head from the reviews, but do our available buffs to Shield of Faith still exclude vehicles? If not, then there's something else that could help Paragons.

indomitable belief is order core infantry and the hymn is core infantry or character, no order lock.

in the book there are no infantry with shield of faith that are neither core or character, but none of the characters are core.

 Punisher wrote:
I think the paragon warsuits look cool but seem to be virtually unplayable. They are just worse than mortifiers in almost every regard.

If you take them I think you have to take melta or why wouldn't you just take mortifiers instead.

From their stats the only difference is the warsuit has 1 less attack(really 2 if you use the mace) and the warsuit has a 4w 2+/6++ vs a 5w 4+/5+++ defensive profile.

For comparisons sake I'm assuming the mortifier has the buzz blades cause there isn't a paragon comparable to the flails.

So offensively in melee the suits have str6 ap -3 d2 4A with the blade or str9 ap-4 d3 3A(-1 to hit)
Mortifiers have str8 ap-4 d2 5A

Ranged mortifiers either get 2 heavy flamers or 2 heavy bolters. Warsuits get storm bolters/grenade launchers and 1 of the holy trinity. Due to morts getting twice the HB or HF I think you'd have to go melta to make them unique/better than twice the shots..

So for 20-30 more points than a mortifier you are at best comparable. So why pay a 25% tax when you can take a unit that does almost everything(sometimes better) but cheaper.

You'd have to really need that -1 damage to be effective, but the weapons that will shoot these units are likely to be anti-tank, and todays anti-tank weapons average 5 damage which kills a paragon outright but doesn't kill a mortifier..

Your meta would have to be almost exclusively D2 weapons and small arms fire, for the paragon to be relevant.

Also keep in mind that Morties have Zealot now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Mortifiers and PEs don't have <CORE>, don't get sacred rights, and can't use miracle dice and resist psychic powers (along with not getting the 6++ you referenced).

I do think Paragon suits aren't very good, but that's why they're so expensive in comparison - you're building in the costs of getting full hits and wounds rerolls from Vahl's disaster of a buff, from being able to miracle dice charges and damage rolls, etc etc.

You missed the most important one.

They don't have ORDER.

Paragons in BR are scary.
In SR they have plenty of MD.
In AS they can advance and shoot with Melta, while also having inbuilt rerolls.
And so on...

Order is the most important keyword in the SoB dex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dammit wrote:
Big fan of the thinking that there'll be less than 3 miracle dice every game now.

My list has around 40 in a 2k game.

Gotta love Sacred Rose.

Too bad that comes at the cost of being good at shooting or melee.

For Paragons, honestly the order trait is necessary to not have them totally outclassed by mortifiers or penitent engines. Without it Mortifiers have literally double the shooting output and close to the same in melee thanks to Zealot while also being cheap enough that you can buy 4 morties for every unit of paragons.

If Celestine still gave them the 6++ I would say it was heavily in the morties favor. Without it, it is still possible that paragons access to more buffs and stronger defense keeps them comparable or even pushes them over the top. We'll have to playtest before we can really tell. My gut tells me they're not very good but that's by no means definitive.

Being able to get an order isn't actually as big a selling point for paragons as it could be; the restriction to 3-model units that want to shoot and fight actually puts them in an awkward spot where they don't gain as much from the top orders as some other stuff. BR definitely isn't bad, but it doesn't boost them as much as it boosts other melee choices; AS you probably don't want to be advancing them because then you can't charge and lose out on a lot of their output, etc. Zealot on the Mortifiers and PEs is actually a better buff than any of the order convictions is on paragons IMO.

The biggest benefit of having an order for paragons probably isn't the <ORDER> bonuses themselves, it's that by being <ORDER> and <CORE> they can benefit from certain stuff like the miracle that lets you bypass invulns, or certain other buffs that are <ORDER> locked.

Basically paragons are expensive, but you can build around enhancing their capabilities. Mortifiers and PEs are just straight-up efficiency, at the cost of being unable to buff them up much further than their already super efficient basic statline.

Paragons have one good order pick: Valorous Heart. Everything else gives marginal utility buffs to a unit that dropa likema sack of hammers when decent firepower is aimed at them.

They should have at least gotten a 5++ SoF save base.

Yeah, VH is the best boost to them, which is a bit awkward since VH doesn't initially seem to be all that promising.

The other awkward thing about paragons is they effectively lock you out of taking while we stand (or I guess in the very best scenario limit you to 10 on it), an extremely powerful secondary that a lot of the best lists build around right now.

Honestly sisters don't really need to take it. They already kind of max 3 secondaries just by existing.

You can't really fail at retrieving data with all those units and action.
You auto 12 on the Acts of Faith one.
EOAF is another very easy one.

I dunno, the Acts of Faith one encourages you you to churn your miracle dice instead of actually using them where and when they're most important. If you go SR yeah obviously you'll make it without even trying, but otherwise with the overall nerfs to MD generation I would be pretty hesitant to commit to a secondary that requires you to burn them, especially one that encourages you to burn them on your opponent's turn, which is not generally where you get the most value from them.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I dunno, the Acts of Faith one encourages you you to churn your miracle dice instead of actually using them where and when they're most important. If you go SR yeah obviously you'll make it without even trying, but otherwise with the overall nerfs to MD generation I would be pretty hesitant to commit to a secondary that requires you to burn them, especially one that encourages you to burn them on your opponent's turn, which is not generally where you get the most value from them.

I argue that you can churn dice with OML as well for it.

It's not hard to find uses for them on your turn to get the 2-3 you need, but getting 2-3 on your opponent's turn is where it feels more restrictive unless you're using them for saves.

I think you're normally going to want to do two Acts of Faith in an opponent's turn less than 50% of the time, and 3 very rarely indeed, unless you have to for the secondary. The one per phase limit means that unless you have a simulacrum - which aren't generally on things you'd want to use miracle dice on anyway - your options on your opponent's turn basically boil down to:

1 save in the shooting phase

1 save or 1 offensive roll in the combat phase

1 morale check

Finding a good use for 1 of these per opponent's turn is going to be common, but the 2nd and 3rd seem like they're often going to end up kinda wasted, unless you just literally have so many dice you don't know what to do with them and are using them just to use them by say using a 3 on a hit roll.

It's admittedly an autopick in SR because you can just churn your bad rolls to generate better ones, but I don't think it's an autopick at all for all sisters lists, or even a strong pick a lot of the time unless you build significant extra MD generation into the list.

Been thinking of VH and I feel that it's ideally the best pick for a tank heavy army. Probably fits a Mech MSU build too while OML is more 10 model squads in Rhinos.

I dunno, not sure it does that much on tanks - your enemy is generally going to want to shoot those with high AP weapons anyway, where it doesn't do anything. What VH really has a big impact on is when you can get to a 2+ or better save that then reduces AP by 1, and you can't do that with tanks since they can't get cover. The 5+ FNP vs mortals is decent on tanks I guess, but I don't think it's fabulous or anything. I'd think SR or AR would still be better bets, though fundamentally a tank-heavy sisters army is just going to be bad generally I think.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I dunno, not sure it does that much on tanks - your enemy is generally going to want to shoot those with high AP weapons anyway, where it doesn't do anything. What VH really has a big impact on is when you can get to a 2+ or better save that then reduces AP by 1, and you can't do that with tanks since they can't get cover. The 5+ FNP vs mortals is decent on tanks I guess, but I don't think it's fabulous or anything. I'd think SR or AR would still be better bets, though fundamentally a tank-heavy sisters army is just going to be bad generally I think.

I was thinking more of which models benefit the most from VH, not claiming that it makes tanks good.

The game needs an overhaul for tanks and monsters in general though. I just try to think kore in a general sense on what is good on what as the game can change a lot when we don't expect it so rather than look at what is best I tend to try and take a more wide angle look at what synergizes well to get an idea where to take an army in the long run.

I think normal battle sisters, sacrestans and paragons benefit most from VH, it makes the infantry a massive pain to dig out of cover (or even not out of cover for the sacrestans). The problem with VH though has always been that it doesn't have offensive output so you just end up dying slowly, and you don't do that as well as a real durable army. I think a VH patrol maybe has some play, but I'm not sure a full list gets there.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think normal battle sisters, sacrestans and paragons benefit most from VH, it makes the infantry a massive pain to dig out of cover (or even not out of cover for the sacrestans). The problem with VH though has always been that it doesn't have offensive output so you just end up dying slowly, and you don't do that as well as a real durable army. I think a VH patrol maybe has some play, but I'm not sure a full list gets there.

It plays objectives well, but lacks the punch to steal objectives from the opponent, hence why I was thinking of how it combos onto tanks.

Either way I'm more partial to trying to make OML work since it gives me stuff for dying and I like leaning into miracle dice.