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Recently I have been trying to protect the sides of my big meks battleweagon from meltavets, firedragons and the like by using the outside battleweagons to hide the the side to force them to either shoot the front armor or allow me 3+ cover save against them.
My problem: I cant hide the side. No matter what I do, a wheel, some part of the turrent, or even the the rear is poking out and allows them to shoot at the side without any penalties. Am I missing something, or is it simply impossible to hide the side of a battlewagon? If there is, how do you to it?

I know buggies are a better way of protection against meltas, but right now I don't have access to any

I have not played many games but maybe puting bikes around your wagons so that they give the BW the cover save from the smoke.

Please correct me if i am wrong or this is not what you want!

If you can hide more than 50% of the side armour, then you get a 4+ cover save, even if they can still see a wheel or such.
Failing that you could always surround the battlewagon with infantry or other vehicles so that the can't even stand within 6" (Melta range) of the battlewagon.

Also remember that they cannot choose the facing they are shooting at, it is determined from where they are standing, so if they are standing in the front arc of the battlewagon then they can't choose to shoot the side even if they could see it somehow.

I would personally go with having bikers popping smoke around the battle wagon to defend it better.

You're all missing the point.

What the OP wants to know is if there's any reasonable way to cover the entire side of his KFF big-mek Battlewagon, forcing enemies to fire at the front and giving him a 3+ cover save. AV14 and 3+ cover would be pretty sweet, no?


That said, since the BWs front is angled, it's more or less impossible to cover it all. Besides, all the opponent has to do is waste your other BW instead. Sure, you've still got your Big Mek and stuff, but it'll still sting a bit.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:You're all missing the point.

What the OP wants to know is if there's any reasonable way to cover the entire side of his KFF big-mek Battlewagon, forcing enemies to fire at the front and giving him a 3+ cover save. AV14 and 3+ cover would be pretty sweet, no?


That said, since the BWs front is angled, it's more or less impossible to cover it all. Besides, all the opponent has to do is waste your other BW instead. Sure, you've still got your Big Mek and stuff, but it'll still sting a bit.

Correct.

Mike, waagh: Bikes are not even close to big enough to cover a battlewagon, the smoke cloud does not confer cover to anything but the bike itself.

Tylarion: There is a KFF Mek inside, so it will have cover anyways. Warbuggies would be the best choice for keeping meltas away, but as stated right now I can't get any, because someone hit my pile of money to spend on WH40k with a SAG and rolled

Walrus: Yeah it stings, but much less than having the big mek and the boyz move to the next weagon, to kick its passengers out and have the bw stand still for that round. I'm no fan of putting 19 boyz in a bw just in case the big meks own wagon gets blown up, so he could enter. Also wrecking the center wagon might kill some passengers, because not all of them might be able to disembark, depending on terrain.

If you don't have access to warbuggies what about deffkoptas? The models are big enough where you can give your BW cover (if you have a squad of 2-3) and if any chimeras get close just rocket them and charge with a buzzsaw.

ThatEdGuy wrote:If you don't have access to warbuggies what about deffkoptas? The models are big enough where you can give your BW cover (if you have a squad of 2-3) and if any chimeras get close just rocket them and charge with a buzzsaw.

Ot you could, you know, read the thread and realize that he's already got a 4+ cover save from a KFF?

Im confused where some of you are getting a 3+ cover save from. Your already getting a 4+ cover on the vehicle from the BigMek KFF. Blocking the sides with another unit could grant it a 4+ cover as well......so it has 2 4+ cover saves now (note you can only use one of them) Im not seeing this 3+ cover save. Was that a typo by 2 users or what?

You do get a 3+ cover save if a firing unit is in a facing it can not see at all, but can see a different facing.

Screening with koptas might work after all, though not as good as with buggies. Might try it some time. So no way to completely hide the bw's side?

I missed that one.

Best way to hide a Battlewagon is with another Battlewagon. Maybe a cheap one with cheap troops in it. Nothing else (bar buildings or terrain) is big enough. It is hard to do better than 4+.

Bike smoke only helps bikes, and everything else I can think of will just get you the 4+ obscured you already have for the KFF!!

Bring more than 1.

Lost Boyz wrote:Best way to hide a Battlewagon is with another Battlewagon. Maybe a cheap one with cheap troops in it. Nothing else (bar buildings or terrain) is big enough. It is hard to do better than 4+.

Can you explain how? I'm running three wagons, the KFF one in the middle, but I still never manage to get the 3+ save for those melta side shots, as they can always trace LoS to some part of the facing. I just want to discourage anit-tank weapons from going at the sides of the center wagon first, but right know they have no reason to shoot at the side ones, while the middle one rewards potential shots at the big mek itself and/or some boyz might get killed if they wreck the wagon.

How about always have your battle wagons on the sides of your middle one just a couple inches ahead of your middle one so even if they try to trace to your side armor it will be on one of your other battle wagons instead. No way they can cheese that one if your sides are both covered with your other battle wagons.

I don't think it can be done, the angles just don't work out.

The only way to hide a side from full visibility is to either park right up next to BLOS terrain so that it covers that side, or use another larger vehicle that completely covers that facing. For example, a Land Raider *MAY* be able to completely block LOS to the side of a Bwagon.

Realistically, it's not going to happen, and you should keep your front armor facing your opponent. Bwagons aren't meant to be AV14 all around like a Land Raider, which is part of why they only cost half the points.

Thanks for all the replies. To conclude, getting 3+ for battlewagons actually seems to be an urban myth of the internet. Really sad it happens to be given as advice everywhere.

I don't see it given, so clearly not "everywhere".

The people claiming you can do it probably don't play true LOS, as they are supposed to. Or have converted battlewagons from other models which block LOS/are blocked more effectively, and thus are functionally modeling for advantage.

Jidmah wrote:Thanks for all the replies. To conclude, getting 3+ for battlewagons actually seems to be an urban myth of the internet. Really sad it happens to be given as advice everywhere.

Not a myth, although I've not seen this given as advise anywhere...

You *can* get 3+ saves on Battlewagons, it is just difficult. The usual application of a 3+ cover save is in people who are in your side arc and can only see your front, or people who are in your rear arc and can only see your side - in both cases usually because you are nestled against BLOS terrain.

Trying to make someone in your front arc only able to shoot your sides so that you're getting 3+ cover against AV14 is...as far as I can think, impossible. The battlewagon is a rectangle, not a square. It has a narrow front and rear arc of fire and a large side arc. For someone to be in your front arc and shooting at AV14 instead of AV12, they're literally going to have to *be* in front of your battlewagon, with a far narrower front field of fire than a typical space marine vehicle.

As a separate scenario, your advancing battlewagon line can provide 3+ cover to the KFF wagon from infantry in the side arc by keeping it 1-2" back from the other two battlewagons. But again, that's a 3+ cover save against shots at AV12, and the flanking battlewagons will only have 4+ against AV12.

I would much prefer presenting AV14 for a 4+ instead of AV12 for a 3+ *any* day of the week.

As a sidenote...warbuggies, deffkoptas....especially warbuggies in a mechanized Ork army exist to keep terminators charging your battlewagons, to screen melta to further than 6" away, and to help control deep-striking. Covert some - if you search through my topics started, I posted an intensive guide on how to turn a deffkopta into a warbuggy with a pencil, some greenstuff, plasticard and a dollar store. And deffkoptas are cheap on e-bay; everyone has swarms of them from AoBR.

Ok, as I obviously suck at explaining, I'll try drawing instead:



dark green = expendable wagon
light green = KFF wagon
black lines = facing
red dots = melta vets/fire dragons/stuff
yellow lines = TLoS

Do not want yellow lines.

Mannahnin wrote:I don't see it given, so clearly not "everywhere".

It was given a lot to me when I started out, sometimes even to argue against needing KFFs.

Dashofpepper wrote:
As a separate scenario, your advancing battlewagon line can provide 3+ cover to the KFF wagon from infantry in the side arc by keeping it 1-2" back from the other two battlewagons. But again, that's a 3+ cover save against shots at AV12, and the flanking battlewagons will only have 4+ against AV12.

This is exactly what I'm looking for. Orkymike adviced something similar, so I will give it some tries.

As a sidenote...warbuggies, deffkoptas....especially warbuggies in a mechanized Ork army exist to keep terminators charging your battlewagons, to screen melta to further than 6" away, and to help control deep-striking. Covert some - if you search through my topics started, I posted an intensive guide on how to turn a deffkopta into a warbuggy with a pencil, some greenstuff, plasticard and a dollar store. And deffkoptas are cheap on e-bay; everyone has swarms of them from AoBR.

Yeah, I know your tutorial and am aiming for converting something similar, simply not much luck with cheap wheels so far.

Jidmah wrote:I'm no fan of putting 19 boyz in a bw just in case the big meks own wagon gets blown up, so he could enter.

Why not? It's a really good idea. Keeping the KFF mobile with your other battlewagons instead of chillin in a crater with some boyz is... well, for the cost of one boy per wagon for me it's a no brainer.

You miss out on a big shoota that way, not always an option.

Jidmah, the picture you're drawing to show (presumably guys with meltas) is a literal impossibility. Or it *should* be.

There is absolutely NO reason whatsoever that enemy models with melta guns should ever be within an inch of you like that unless you LET them get there.

If they were in a rhino and moved 12" and disembarked....then they were in assault range for you.
If they were on foot and moved up...then they were in assault range for you.

If you moved up 12" and put yourself in range that a move would put them that close, or within any kind of 6" to melta you, you didn't play it well.

Within the picture you posted....try this: Move the middle wagon back 2". Boom, now you have 3+ cover against side armour shots.

*edit* Remember that those melta guys are half the height or less than a battlewagon. They get to see from their eyes. And with a looming monstrosity of a battlewagon in front of them, even on their tippy-toes they can't see over it to the next one over.

It's not a question of seeing over, Dash. If they can see even the smallest sliver of the targeted vehicle THROUGH the screening vehicle (under the tracks, in a tiny gap between the cab and bed, etc.) it's just 4+ cover.

Dashofpepper wrote:Jidmah, the picture you're drawing to show (presumably guys with meltas) is a literal impossibility. Or it *should* be.

There is absolutely NO reason whatsoever that enemy models with melta guns should ever be within an inch of you like that unless you LET them get there.

If they were in a rhino and moved 12" and disembarked....then they were in assault range for you.
If they were on foot and moved up...then they were in assault range for you.

Uh, just imagine a resonable distance to the bw being there, drew the picture in like 30 seconds. The point is most of them being within 6". Usually three guys are within, the rest outside.

If you moved up 12" and put yourself in range that a move would put them that close, or within any kind of 6" to melta you, you didn't play it well.

Point taken. Either charge the transport or stay at least 20" away from it.

Within the picture you posted....try this: Move the middle wagon back 2". Boom, now you have 3+ cover against side armour shots.

*edit* Remember that those melta guys are half the height or less than a battlewagon. They get to see from their eyes. And with a looming monstrosity of a battlewagon in front of them, even on their tippy-toes they can't see over it to the next one over.

If I use neither a kannon, nor the grot-turrent big shoota, this works, otherwise they can still see the side of the turrent. Non-prone infantry should'nt be able to see anything in that case.

With 5th edition and TLOS, it's nearly impossible to actually hide a vehicle or unit from enemy fire. Getting a 4+ cover save is typically the best you can do.

I'm not sure who was advocating getting a 3+ cover save as a reliable strategy, but whoever it was probably misunderstands the rules.

If you use neither the kannon or grot-turret big shoota....

Battlewagons are for going 12" to deliver assaulty goodness says Ghazghkull Thraka. There's not room for shootin' in there. A big shoota somewhere to suffer the consequences of a weapon destroyed result, but not really for shooting.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Battlewagons are for going 12"...

/clears throat: 13 inches, every ork knows dat red ones go fasta!

I never take red paint. There's virtually never anything that 29" would get me that 28" wouldn't already.

That's an area of legitimate disagreement among warbosses. Some consider it unnecessary. Others can remember dozens of times when an assault was in or out by an inch or less.