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at Christmas I started a chaos Daemon army, I didn't get much of it painted and I only got to somewhere between 100-1400 out of my 2000p list, I planned to have it done by the start of summer,
Then the grey knights got released.

I kinda lost the will to paint, I dared not touch the on display codex in my store for the horrors that await daemons inside,
after having heard enough from all my mates about how my Daemon list doesn't stand a chance against any grey knight list, I set off to try and create the best grey knight hunting list possible (With your help of couse )
With my little knowledge of the grey knights codex (which I'm regretting not reading now) I only know what my mates were bragging about ~(every model is a sorcorer, str 1 0against daemons for some rrandom hq or making daemons inititive 1~
I've tried to make a baseline for the best list I can think of, but If any changes you feel necesarry, post up your version of the list (or your own list if you wanted)
There's just 1 theory, It must thrash grey knights

2005P

HQ:
~Ku'Gath plaguefather-300

TROOP:
~10x pink horrors-170-195
Icon

~10x pink horrors-170-195
Icon-

~5x pink horrors-85-95
Bolt of Tzeench

~5x pink horrors-85-95
Bolt of Tzeench

ELITES:
~3X Fiend of slannesh-90-100
Unholy Might

~3X Fiend of slannesh-90-100
Unholy Might

~3X bloodcrushers of khorne-120

HEAVY SUPPORT:
~Soul grinder-135-160
Tounge

~Soul grinder-135-160
Tounge

FAST ATTACK:
~10x Flesh hounde of khorne-150-185
karnak

~10x Flesh hounds of khorne-150

~10x Flesh hounds of khorne-150



TOTAL-2005 points


Any idea's on improvements?

Im Not a daemon Player, But I do know that blue horrors aren't great.
Apart from that it looks solid, I wouldn't bother with karanak IMHO tho.
Daemons can't beat grey knights, the daemon hunting is all across the codex.

I think the best way to beat them would be to stay out of CC for sure, then there daemonhunting abilities become didly D!$%.

Which is what you want for a fair game, and attack the units you know you can beat.


Ku'gath

8 horrors with Bolt
8 horrors with Bolt
8 horrors with Bolt
8 horrors with Bolt
8 horrors with Bolt
9 horrors with Bolt


Soul Grinder with phlem
Soul Grinder with phlem
Soul Grinder with phlem

3 fiends of slannesh with unholymight

3 fiends of slannesh with unholymight

3 bloodcrushers of khorne with fury of khorne.



Ive only played against daemons, just fyi

I think this list would exploit the GK codex inability to kill armor 13+ effectively, through the Soul Grinders.

And the amount of shot coming from the horrors will help out, with so many shots on few models theyll be forced to submit.

And worse case for you is 6x10man strike squads for 1200 points a HQ for about 100-200 and probably 10-20 elite units for the rest so about 65-80 models on the board.

But those units would be plain, no player will play daemons plain i think, they will upgrade to higher initivative weps and stronger weps against daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think you could shine a lot in lower point games, force them to spend 200 points on that expensive instant killable HQ,

So 1000-1500 is in your favor and any more is them because there models count gets up.

I think GK can kill AV 13+ just as easily. Psycannons are S7 AP4 rending assault 2/ heavy 4. Getting a rend will auto-glance, AV14 and only need a 3+ to pen. Not too shabby with a 24inch range.

Warp Rift is a physic shooting flame-template that causes an auto-pen on any vehicles that are hit.

The Vindicare's turbo-penetrator gives you 4D6 armor penetration+3 (sniper universal rule). It is also an AP1 weapon so you only need need a 4+ and it's BS 8 so you hit on 2s with 4s for re-rolls.

Every GK has hammerhand which is applied before other modifiers so GK have S10 Daemonhammers.

Seems like GK have a good amount of anti-vehicle to me, highly doubt soul grinders will cause that much problems.


Daemons are terrible at lower point games because they can never seem to put enough on the table. Less target saturation for any players, so they by the time reinforcement arrive via deep strike, a good chunk are dead. Since they deep struck, a good number of them will also die in the next turn. I wouldn't count on winning against most standard GK armies.

I hate Ku'Gath. SnP + CC is ALWAYS uberfail. And another huge problem is that his giant pus ball is like S1 or some arbitrary value that can't hurt vehicles. So if any GK (or any player) are using full mech, you've just wasted 300 points. Don't even bother looking at his CC abilities. Trying to charge into CC with SnP is like playing ping pong with a chopstick. It can be done yes, but why...?
All this is coming from when when the codex first came out, I ran pure nurgle list. It doesn't take long for your opponent to realize just how slow your army is and can literally kite them on foot.
On that note, why not fateweaver? I know fateweaver is as cookiecutter as it gets but combined with horrors, thats a 4+ rerollable invul save on them. Suddenly your horrors are toughter/as tough/possibly just a little weaker than terminators! (I have not math-hammered it but I believe terminators have a 83% chance to pass their save versus your 75%. Compared to a marine or grey knight's 66% chance. I guess its midway as far as resilience goes.)

For horrors, why not give everyone bolt of change? It's a dirt cheap upgrade and gives your pink horrors flexibility. Sure it'd be better to shoot strike squads with them but if the opportunity for some rhino poping arises (as opposed to shooting no one), you can take it. Also, instant death against paladins.

If those are the models you have to use, I would say use all fiends instead of bloodcrushers. Hellblade and ironhides are demonic gifts and they have some silly rule in the gk dex where demonic gifts are null within X" inches. So basically you'd be without powerweapon and your 3+ save in CC with bloodcrushers (not that the 3+ save would matter but it could deflect shooting, or rather, would've deflected shooting). I love fiends but under that same logic they would lose rending. Still if you're gonna be nerfed into a W2 5+ invul cavalry, might as well go fiends. They're both S5 and the fiends have a higher initiative.

Finally, give your soulgrinders phlem, not tongue. Firstly the BS3 any nontemplates have a 50% chance to hit. In my opinion that is very bad at low fire volumes. Tongue is nice but the only target it'll be useful against is the landraider. And with a 24" range, you'll be in psycannon range if you can shoot anyone.
Now phlegm is a beauty. 36" battlecannon. No ord rule means no good against vehicles (not that you should be using it for tankhunting anyway) but its a battlecannon and if marines hate anything its battlecannons. That and humungodungo laser gattlers that are like S9 Ap2 Heavy 6 Large blast. But I digress... and drool.

I don't know how this will work points wise (I don't have my dex on me) but I'd do

HQ:
Fateweaver and another lord of change or 2 heralds if there are enough points left over. Very resilient shooting platforms.

TROOP:
15x pink horrors
Icon Bolt Changeling
15x pink horrors
Icon Bolt
15x pink horrors
Icon Bolt
15x pink horrors
Icon Bolt

ELITES:
4-5 Fiend of slannesh
Unholy Might

4-5 Fiend of slannesh
Unholy Might

4-5 Fiend of slannesh
Unholy Might

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Soul grinder
Phlegm

Soul grinder
Phlegm

The flesh hounds seem like a unit that would get shot back to the warp the turn they come in.

What I would do against GK is instead of aggressive deploying, I'd start fate with 2-3 horrors, and 1-2 fiends at least 24" away from GK.
Deploy fateweaver *FIRST*. Very important. The rest of the army could scatter and poof due to mishap but as long as fateweaver is in, you get terminator horrors.

Idea is since horror shooting is assault 18", you'd move and shoot and close the distance slowly as the number of GKs drop.
Even if you dont get preferred deployment, your 2 soulgrinders will come down along with 1-2 horrors and 2-3 fiends. Hide fiends in cover and just use them as opportunistic chargers/counterchargers. Oh that reminds me, another reason why fiends are better: beast type. In addition to fleet, beast gives you 12" charge so you have alot of control of who you want to assault and where. 6 + d6 + 12 is potentially halfway across the map.

Oh wow I've written a helluva long rant.... now I want to play demons again...

From what I've seen, Mono Khorne destroys GK.

Perhaps some units of Bloodthirsters?

Ku'gath's necrotic missles always wound on a 4+ and are ap 2, But i suppose for 300 points he's notthe best heavy support option XD

Thanks for the idea's ^^

I havee to try those lists out one day

Skarbrand or a Bloodthirsters are good like he just said, also with Skarbrand and the Bloodthirster being able to take on most things in combat it is a good choice to take.

Yeah I can't see a way Daemons can beat the new GK codex. THey have Psycannons which are awesome AT fire and awesome AI fire too. They can get S5 Storm bolters, they have preferred enemy and daemonbane for CC.

And all that is assuming you can actually get on the board. If he's taking lots of tsrikes and Interceptors if he goes first he can make you misshap if you land within 12" of any of his squads and can easily cover the entire board in turn 1. Then you'll be killed by never even getting onto the board.

GKs can auto-win vs Daemons if they choose but almost any build will really nail the Daemons.

What i've heard, is that a good and well tailored Fateweaver list will destroy all but the heartiest and most tailored of GK lists.

What i've heard, is that a good and well tailored Fateweaver list will destroy all but the heartiest and most tailored of GK lists.

If it can get on the board even Fatecrusher will still struggle against almost any GK list. GKs do a hell tonne of damage shooting and even in assault you'll struggle due to power weapons everywhere and re-rolls to hit everywhere. And that's assuming you can even get on the board...

I ran, in a 1500 point game:

1493 [1500]
HQ
Fateweaver

Elites
Bloodcrusher x4 /w Everything

Bloodcrusher x4 /w Everything

Troops
5 Horrors of Tzeench
Bolt of Tzeench
1 Changeling

5 Plague Bearers

5 Plague Bearers

8 Bloodletters of Khorne

Heavy Support
Demon Prince
MoK, Wings, Might, Iron Hide, Blessings

Demon Prince
MoN, Cloud of Flies, Noxious Touch, Iron Hide

He ran Draigo and a whole mess of paladins + a psifleman dread.

No time to do a full batrep... but basically the re-rolling invul saves were absolute MONEY.

Turn 1
I got the daemons I wanted (Fateweaver, 1 squad of crushers, MoK Prince, and pink horrors). My Horrors deepstruck behind his psifileman, and blew it up with Tzeench Bolt. Fateweaver/MoK Prince/Bloodcrushers deepstruck. I used my DP to screen Fateweaver, and fateweaver both of them to screen the crushers. I lost a crusher to shooting, and my DP took a wound, but between wound allocation and re-rollable saves, those bloodcrushers are absolute tanks. He was juuuuuust shy of getting the charge.

Turn 2
MoN prince + Bloodcrushers come in, and use the Crusher chaos icon for easy deepstrikes. I use a couple of powers, and pew pew with my horrors (to little affect) and then multi-assault his entire army with MoK Prince + Fateweaver + 3 Crushers. Furious Charge whips his ass. 3 or 4 paladins die. On his turn, his entire army is stuck in assault, so no shooting to worry about. I lose another crusher, but he loses 2 more paladins.

Turn 3
Everything else comes in, and deepstrikes in safe zones, basically surrounding the termies and waiting to mop up. MoN Prince and 4 more crushers charge in. I win combat by 6. He fails morale and goes running for it.

Turn 4
Charge again. Table him.

Fun game, fun assault.. and in the middle of turn 2 I thought that the pallies might weather the storm, but without stormshields they really aren't tough enough to survive that many power weapons and monstrous creature attacks.

Expect to lose more models in CC then you are used to, but expect to also, for the first time, have more models than your opponent.

TL;DR: GK really aren't that bad.

Yeah you beat a Paladin list. Paladin lists suck big time fo rthe very reason you stated. Not enough models and the extra wound doesn't help as much as you'd think. Point for Point TH/SS Terminators will smash paladins to pieces. Paladin builds just aren't viable.

Any list with Power Armoured Grey knights will nail daemons. They will have far more bodies and far more firepower and generally even more CC hitting power against Daemons (due to purifying flame, wounding 75% of the models in assault before any blows are struck). Whilst Strikes and Interceptors just nail Daemons so hard it isn't even funny.

Thanks, Cottonjaw, for an informative read.

The GK codex is still young, but it seems at the moment that the biggest threats in any GK all comers list are interceptor (particularly dangerous for daemons with the shut +warp quake) purifier list with psyfleman spam.

If you are ready to assault those units with bloodcrushers and fatewaever on point granting rerolls, you have a good chance of tabling many GK lists in assault.

shank911 wrote:
I think this list would exploit the GK codex inability to kill armor 13+ effectively, through the Soul Grinders.

This is totally incorrect. I've been testing out different lists and my favorite so far is psycannon spam. They have a very good chance of taking out AV14 compared to almost every other weapon. My friend did the math (so I don't know how good it is) and figured that one psycannon is more effective vs. AV14 than one lascannon when stationary. Throw them on a LR redeemer or razorback and with TL they're now super effective. I've been using 14 psycannons in 2k, 3 of which are TL, and i shoot down everything.

Personally I don't see how any daemon army can stand up against GK. In CC they'll for sure win (if you use dark excommunication well even korne will have issues) They're far superior at shooting. Personally I run a gatling psilencer on my DK and every time that thing shoots it kills 2+ marines. It wounds daemons on a 2+ and they have worse saves. There's just way too much in the dex to counter daemons for it to really work.

My friend did the math (so I don't know how good it is) and figured that one psycannon is more effective vs. AV14 than one lascannon when stationary.

They are actually as effective as 2.67 Lascannons when firing in Heavy mode. Even in assault mode they are as effective against AV14 as 1.33 Lascannons! The psycannon is pretty much the best ranged AT gun in the game (so discountiing Melta and tthe Vindicare).

Personally I run a gatling psilencer on my DK and every time that thing shoots it kills 2+ marines. It wounds daemons on a 2+ and they have worse saves.

Unfortuunately the Psilencer only wounds Daemons on a 4+ (unless it would wound them on a better score). Should still kill 4+ bloodletters a turn though.

FlingitNow wrote:

Unfortuunately the Psilencer only wounds Daemons on a 4+ (unless it would wound them on a better score). Should still kill 4+ bloodletters a turn though.

SoB, you're right. It's super late and my brain aparently failed on me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:

My friend did the math (so I don't know how good it is) and figured that one psycannon is more effective vs. AV14 than one lascannon when stationary.

They are actually as effective as 2.67 Lascannons when firing in Heavy mode. Even in assault mode they are as effective against AV14 as 1.33 Lascannons! The psycannon is pretty much the best ranged AT gun in the game (so discountiing Melta and tthe Vindicare).

Yeah that's what my friend was saying. I believe it too. I've been doing wonderful things with them.

I still maintain that Fateweaver is your best bet to beat GK with Chaos Daemons. Rerolling saves inside his bubble is huge, and can get you into assault with the dedicated assault units that will cut through PAGK.

Madman49 wrote:at Christmas I started a chaos Daemon army, I didn't get much of it painted and I only got to somewhere between 100-1400 out of my 2000p list, I planned to have it done by the start of summer,
Then the grey knights got released.

I kinda lost the will to paint, I dared not touch the on display codex in my store for the horrors that await daemons inside,
after having heard enough from all my mates about how my Daemon list doesn't stand a chance against any grey knight list, I set off to try and create the best grey knight hunting list possible (With your help of couse )
With my little knowledge of the grey knights codex (which I'm regretting not reading now) I only know what my mates were bragging about ~(every model is a sorcorer, str 1 0against daemons for some rrandom hq or making daemons inititive 1~
I've tried to make a baseline for the best list I can think of, but If any changes you feel necesarry, post up your version of the list (or your own list if you wanted)
There's just 1 theory, It must thrash grey knights

2005P



You should get Phelgm for at least one of the grinders, In my experience tongue rarely does what you want. I'd get one with Phelgm, and 1 with Tongue.
HQ:
~Ku'Gath plaguefather-300

TROOP:
~10x pink horrors-170-195
Icon

~10x pink horrors-170-195
Icon-

~5x pink horrors-85-95
Bolt of Tzeench

~5x pink horrors-85-95
Bolt of Tzeench

ELITES:
~3X Fiend of slannesh-90-100
Unholy Might

~3X Fiend of slannesh-90-100
Unholy Might

~3X bloodcrushers of khorne-120

HEAVY SUPPORT:
~Soul grinder-135-160
Tounge

~Soul grinder-135-160
Tounge

FAST ATTACK:
~10x Flesh hounde of khorne-150-185
karnak

~10x Flesh hounds of khorne-150

~10x Flesh hounds of khorne-150



TOTAL-2005 points


Any idea's on improvements?

I still maintain that Fateweaver is your best bet to beat GK with Chaos Daemons. Rerolling saves inside his bubble is huge, and can get you into assault with the dedicated assault units that will cut through PAGK.

Fatecrusher is your best bet with Daemons full stop no maqtter tha opponents. It is a tournament build for a good reason. But it still requires that you get your models onto the table and GK can prevent that from happening if they want.

u need bloodletters, the power weapons just carve through grey knights, and a big unit of about 20 next 2 Fate Weaver is an awesome combo. Plus it kills space marines with ease, so should do the same for GK. S5 on the charge with 3 Attacks with power weapons are just lethal

putrid one wrote:u need bloodletters, the power weapons just carve through grey knights, and a big unit of about 20 next 2 Fate Weaver is an awesome combo. Plus it kills space marines with ease, so should do the same for GK. S5 on the charge with 3 Attacks with power weapons are just lethal

You can't DS them very close so they can get shot down. You've gotta be careful and keep them away from the libbys and DKs. Otherwise, yeah sure, they'll work.

OK, where to start?

1: With the crushers, run skulltaker on a jugger.
Not only does this add alot of impact and ID goodness, it also has an extra use that i saw a few days ago.
When charging a dreadknight, move skulltaker out of the unit in the movement phase, then assault with him and the unit seperate.
Dark excom. can only work on 1 unit, so he has to pick if its skulltaker or the crushers that dont get any gifts.
skulltaker will hack a dreadknight apart very quickly, but the crushers will also do a nice job on the charge.

2: Flesh hounds arent the most amazing unit normally, but against GK, they shine.
Fast moving and can tie up a unit for an entire game.
Blessing means against force weps they have a 2++ so every 6 wounds will kill one, when you have 10 in a unit, you can have something like paladins sat there doing nothing.
Even better if they have a stave in the unit as it is of no use.
Granted the hounds may eventually bring the unit down, but the real bonus is taking the out out of the game before they really get to do anything.

3: Like above, blessing should be taken on any khornate units that can have it.
2++ against force weps is a god send, and means that you will be able to survive if you get dropped to I1.

4: I would cut nurgle out of the list.
FNP is gone against 90% of the weapons they use.
T5 is ok, until a unit hammer hands.
They really cant fight, so thats yet another nail in the coffin for them.

5: Obvious, but avoid warpquake.
Drop back and pick out units for assault while avoiding it.


6: Get into combat and stay in there for aslong as possible.
GK shooting is IMO worse for you than most other armies due to the sheer volume of S5+





Think thats about it really, just plan ahead as allways and keep an eye on key units.
Things like paladins are kitted out to survive everything and hammer anything that goes near them, so dont fight, just tie them up and make a 300+ point unit become a point sink.

Jackal wrote:OK, where to start?

3: Like above, blessing should be taken on any khornate units that can have it.
2++ against force weps is a god send, and means that you will be able to survive if you get dropped to I1.

um... What 2++ vs force weapons? You do realize that they don't have to activate their NFW as it specifically says that any psyker or daemon wounded by a NFW is removed as a casualty regardless of whether or not the force wepaon was activated right? So the only thing that 2++ is good for really is Dark Excommunication , which will remove the 2++ if you fail. So yeah... have fun with that. Obviously it works vs other powers too, but Dark Exommunication is the end all against a daemon army. It removes your 3+ armor, your power weapons, rending on slaanesh, shooting attacks on tzeentch, and many many others. About the only thing it doesn't remove is the daemon special rule... which makes them easier to kill by GK.

Again, I fail to see how a smart GK player could ever loose to daemons.

In my all-comers list I have 4 warp quakes, that's enough to shut down daemon DSing in turn 1.

Sothas wrote:
um... What 2++ vs force weapons? You do realize that they don't have to activate their NFW as it specifically says that any psyker or daemon wounded by a NFW is removed as a casualty regardless of whether or not the force wepaon was activated right?

Minor correction: any Daemon or Psyker wounded by NFW is only removed if they fail a Leadership test.

On the tactics question. If ( and this is the big thing ) the Daemons get past the Warp Quake(s), their best bet
is either shoot a lot or dedicate their unholy hides to Lord Khorne. All the other tactical options really do not seem that viable.

A-P wrote:

Sothas wrote:
um... What 2++ vs force weapons? You do realize that they don't have to activate their NFW as it specifically says that any psyker or daemon wounded by a NFW is removed as a casualty regardless of whether or not the force wepaon was activated right?

Minor correction: any Daemon or Psyker wounded by NFW is only removed if they fail a Leadership test.

Good call. Still makes the 2++ worthless though.