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I know I already posted part of this in the P+M forum, but I need some army list advice instead of actual model advice.
My army is based on clan moulder, with a bunch of weird random gubbinz,
the army list:
grey seer (screaming bell) - 440 points (Any upgrades needed?)
cheiften with bsb - 70 pts
300 skaven slaves with spears - 750 (should i field these in 3 units of 100, or all together, pushing the screaming bell?)
2 hell pit abominations with warpstone spikes - 500
5 rat ogres with master moulder - 233
total 1993
any ideas?
PS: could do with some help with ideas for modeling/fluff, check the P+M forum!

Yikes, what a hardcore list

A few constructive thoughts:
- Master moulder is a bad idea, as he must run in the front rank due to being a champion; drop and invest in as many packmasters as possible (3)
- Get that BSB some protection! At the very least a shield, but likely some ward save too!
- Running slaves beyond 50 is probably not the best idea, and 6x 50 should give you a pretty monstrous battleline as is (I'd also vote for musicians on those slaves, if you can spare the points )

What I got. Any plan for Blood & Glory missions? You're at 3 fortitude, which means auto-loss when seer or BSB bites it. Making the bell unit a fat block of clanrats might help, but would probably set you back 100+ slaves

- Salvage

Slaves can't push the bell; is clan rats or storm vermin only.
When I've faced master moulders, they have always performed. A T4 unit champ with 2W and a great weapon is pretty good. Add as many normal pack masters in as well, along with a master bred rat.

Don't all grey seers come with a power scroll and a healing potion? Seems like they do.

The list doesn't seem very mouldery to me; you could use some giant rats; maybe a rat swarm or two for theme.

-Matt

awwwww, I wish skaves could push the bell. so I'm gonna have to settle for 200 slaves,, and 50 clanrats pushing the bell. is that any good? perhaps I should substitute one of the HPA's for more clanrats and slaves, but theyre the main hard hitting element of my army. whats better, clanrats with sheilds or just more clanrats???
so we definitley want the screaming bell and bsb, with some clanrats pushing it (whats a good number???)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NVM, totally new list now, I got it off the GW website, pete foleys tournament skaven. I'm not going to rip the army off entirely, just use it as a basis for my list. here goes:


Lords & Heroes

Grey Seer with Power Scroll and Skalm.
305 points

Warlord with shield, Weeping Blade, Potion of Strength, Dragonhelm and Talisman of Endurance.
183 points

Battle Standard Bearer with shield and Storm Banner.
122 points

Warlock Engineer with Doomrocket.
45 points

Warlock Engineer with Brass Orb.
65 points

Warlock Engineer with Death Globe.
40 points

Core

21 Giant Rats with 3 Packmasters and a Master Moulder with great weapon.
124 points

20 Skavenslaves
40 points

20 Skavenslaves
40 points

20 Skavenslaves
40 points

25 Clanrats with spears, shields, musician, standard bearer and Clawleader.
145 points

25 Clanrats with spears, shields, musician, standard bearer and Clawleader.
145 points

29 Stormvermin with shields, musician, standard bearer with Standard of Discipline and Fangleader.
272 points

Rare

1 Hell Pit Abomination with warpstone spikes.
250 points

2 Warp Lightning Cannons
180 points

Total 1996 points
now, I'm thinking possibly ccombine the two units of clanrats, just to get a bit more oomf to them, and possibly swap the rats out for some ogres. If anyone can think of anything else please say so. should I get rid of the warlord for something else?

- Your Seer will die, and fast. But he'll do some damage.

- The Warlord is a nice one. I usually save points with just a Seer and a big Ward save (same W and T) since they have the same Ld. But it's you're call.

- The Engineers are okay. The Death Globe is...eh. The Brass Orb is...eh as well, unless you're throwing it at Dwarfs, Ogres, Saurus, or a Steam Tank. The Doomrocket is king, but not because it's more deadly. It's just so reliable, for some dumb reason.

- I'd drop the Standard of Discipline on the Stormvermin and give them the Stormbanner. That way you can get some Ward on that BSB.

- On second thought, swapping the Stormvermin for Plague Monks will probably yield better results.

- Beyond that...the units are just too small. 35-50 is generally my range, favoring 50. I'd also get some command on the Slave blocks. A musician is a must, at 2pts.

- This guy's got a whopping 4pts left over! Why on earth didn't he grab two more Slaves? Or get two musicians? Madness, I say.

Oh, and here's a neat little formula that proves shields are worth it for Clanrats:

6 shields = 3pts. Shields save 1 in 6 Clanrats (against S4 or less attacks), and 1 in 6 Clanrats (against CC attacks). 1 Clanrat = 4.5pts.

So, against S4 or less attacks, you're spending 3pts to save 4.5. Against CC attacks, you're spending 3pts to save 4.5. Against S4 or less CC attacks, you're spending 6pts to save 9.

ok, so combine the clanrats units and exchange the death/brass globes for doomrockets. obviously add musicians. possibly change the stormvermin for more clanrats, or as said above, plague monks.

Stil very new to WHFB so pardon my ignorance. Why plague monks in this list? I don't have my books at hand but can they push a Bell? If not what benefit do they bring? I thought monks worked better with other plague stuff such as a PF.

You can't duplicate magic items.
You only get 1 doom rocket (thankfully); that why he had the engineers set up that way.

The banner of discipline goes with the small units.
With the general Ld8 in that unit, you only need 2 ranks for the Ld10. It lets you run smaller units and still have the leadership.

I wouldn't drop the storm vermin; outside of the abomination, they are your only hitting power; you want to have more than a single melee option for killing stuff.

-Matt

Right; I was suggesting that the 105pts spent on the other Engineers is probably not worth it, by comparison.

If I could, I'd max out my hero choices with Doomrocket Engineers. Hell; that'd be my army. Most cost-effective item in the game.

Agree with the Banner of Discipline as well; I just don't think it really benefits the Skaven much. A Ward save on the BSB would be better.

That's a good point on the Stormvermin, but...I dunno. I haven't played them enough to really feel that they're worth their points or not. Plague Monks would offer some hitting power, with a different focus (lots of attacks versus higher S), though they are slightly more resilient (T4 carries farther than 5+ armour, in most cases).
I think that the Cannons make up for a lot of hitting power, since they are so stupidly good, but some extra melee would be nice.

But as said above; do you want an especially Moulder-y list? 'Cause you've got...an Abomination...and some Giant Rats. You want a Monster Mash, I'd try something like:

- Grey Seer + Talisman of Preservation + Ironcurse Icon (290)

- Warlock Engineer + lvl1 + Doomrocket (95)
- Chieftain + battle standard + Charmed Shield + Foul Pendant (105)

- 40 Clanrats + shields + full command (200)
- 40 Stormvermin + full command + Stormbanner (355)
- 34 Giant Rats + 4 packmasters + Master Moulder (159)
- 5 Giant Rats + packmaster (23)

- 6 Rat Ogres + 4 packmasters + Master-bred Rat Ogre (287)

- Hell-pit Abomination + Warpstone Spikes (250)
- Hell-pit Abomination (235)

Total: 1999pts, 139 models, 5 Fortitude

Not a lot of models, but three hard-hitting units and plenty of Moulder-beasts. The rat-dart can go after war machines while the Stormbanner shuts them down. The other rats are just begging for Death Frenzy and/or Bless with Filth. The Rat Ogres and A-bombs do what they do best.

nah, ive decided not to go with the moulder anymore, i just want a good list.

Well. In that case, I've got this to say:

- Grey Seer.
- Doomrocket-Engineer.
- a few Gutter Runners.
- Rat Ogres.
- two Warp-lightning Cannons.
- Hell Pit Abomination.

hmmm, that sounds good, but i do want some slaves units to use as tarpitters, and I need something to stick the grey seer, warlock engineer and bsb in

Oh, yes to both of those. Absolutely.

I just figured that, what with the 300+ Slaves that have made appearances in several of your other lists, that I wouldn't both mentioning bodies.

Clanrats are the best character-bunkers, though a unit of Stormvermin with the Stormbanner is more and more worthwhile the less Weapon Teams and artillery you've got.

1 grey seer (upgrades?) (240)
1 Warlock Engineer + Doomrocket (45)
1 Chieftain + battle standard + Enchanted Shield + Foul Pendant (105)

40 Clanrats + shields (or spears) + full command (210)
1 Warpfire Thrower (70)
40 clanrats + shields (or spears) + full command (210)
1 poisoned wind mortar (65)
50 Skavenslaves + spears + musician (127)
50 skaven slaves + spears + musician (127)

5 Rat Ogres + 1 packmaster (256)
5 gutter runners (60)

1 Warp-lightning cannon (90)
1 Warp-lightning cannon (90)
1 HPA with warpstone spikes (250)
1993
any ideas? I dont have many points to spend on more gutter runners, but it seems like there arent many of them, what should I do to get more?

I would drop the units of clanrats down to about 30 and swap the spears on the slaves for shields (or take neither). Also, the

oooh, but theyre my character bunkers! possibly drop one of them down to 30 and then shove it in with the other to make a unit of 70, gives me about 100 or so points (because i would lose a weapons team) to spend to upgrade the seer, and then get some more points spent on the gutter runnners.

and shields? ON THE SLAVES???? excuse me sir but how stupid are you? thats just not worth it! a 6+ save for a model worth 2 points? why would I even want the save, it wont save many, and I dont care about the slaves anyway. its just not feasible points wise, however the spears let another rank attack. warpsolution knows the exact formula for shields and ttheir worth.

I would get armor of destiny and a shield on the bsb, personal preference though.

Get the talisman of 4+ ward on your grey seer and maybe a dispel scroll at the very least.

I would find room to add one more rat ogre so you can go two ranks for steadfast denial, also add more pack masters.

Consider dropping one wlc for another unit of gutter runners, it'll depend on your area and playstyle but you could try the list with both. Also consider slings and poison on them as well.

Hope this helps in someway!

ok, I'll try and work that in somehow, but it'll be dfficult.
can't i make up the second rank with packmasters?

Your latest list is good Walker!

I think it can be improved though

Lord
Grey Seer - General, Talisman of Preservation, Power Scroll, Ironcurse Icon (325)

Hero
Cheiftain - Battle Standard, Armour of Destiny, Shield (122)
Warlock Engineer - Doom Rocket (45)

Core
38 Clanrats - Full Command, Shields (191) [General + BSB bunker here]
49 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (104)
49 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (104)
50 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (106)
50 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (106)

Special
6 Rat Ogres - Master-bred Rat Ogre, 4 Packmasters (287)
5 Gutter Runners - Poison & Slings (90)
5 Gutter Runners - Poison & Slings (90)

Rare
Hell Pit Abomination - Warpstone Spikes (250)
Warp-Lightning Cannon (90)
Warp-Lightning Cannon (90)

TOTAL: 2000

Slaves tarpit the enemy, while you magic them, warp-lightning them, shoot them with poison shots and flank charge them with Hell Pit and Rat Ogres. The slave champs + the champ in the clanrats unit are there to challenge opposing lords, heroes or champs to decrease the amounts of bodies they kill. You dont care much about CR as you should be steadfast (at least initially).

Brutal and effective concept.
Its the mainstay of my own army (many others' as well). I play 3000 pts, so have more toys of course (mainly Plague Priest with Furnace + 40-50 monks, another WLC, Bell etc)

I honestly think, if you want a mainstay for a good skaven army you WONT go wrong with this list. Spears on slaves can be used but are NOT cost-effective, really. They wont kill much anyway, rather have more bodies than spears.

ALL your units will be deployed as 5 wide and 8-10 deep. Ranks are much more important than damage output from skaven core infantry. Rat Ogres, HPA + cannons + magic will be your real damage output! Gutter Runners are best used to go after enemy warmachines, soloing wizards, great eagles, stuff like that. They can box the opponent in too, and force Ld-test for marching for example.

Packmasters don't count towards ranks in Rat Ogre units.

The above list is solid; I'd really only suggest a few things:

- the typical Grey Seer builds are usually Power Scroll/Skalm or Talisman of Preservation/(Ironcurse, Dispel Scroll, etc.). Any of them are great choices, though the Power Scroll won't make you many friends or earn much in the way of creativity points. It's brutal, though.

- a very minor point, but a halberd will almost always help you stay alive more than a shield on your BSB.

- I prefer a secondary wizard for some extra spell options; there's a significant number of worthless crap for spells in the Skaven lores.

- One unit of Clanrats with well over 500pts in characters is a dangerous gambit. Especially with the frequency you'll encounter the Lore of Life.
Beyond that, I usually find that three blocks of 50 guys is enough to hold down the fort; two units of Clanrats, and two of Slaves.

- One unit of Gutter Runners will easily trash a whole army's worth of war machines (unless there's some Organ Guns or Volley Guns in the line) or similar things, so the only reason that you'll want more than that is to ensure they enter play as quickly as possible. If that's worth an extra 90pts to you, do it. I usually keep some more toys around.

- Spearslaves can be cost-effective. Spells like Bless with Filth become actually worthwhile on said units. It's situational. If you're up against Ogres, just stick to being Steadfast. If you're fighting Sword Masters, you can try slapping on Death Frenzy and lettin' 'em at it.
Overall, I keep them cheap and naked, just to have more variety in my army, though I pay for it with less flexible units.

- Overall, though, this is similar to my lists. Weapon Teams are iffy, but they're fun. Rat Ogres are pretty scary, as long as they get a chance to swing. Cannons and A-bombs are kings; there's very little that can compete with these units.

how about:
Lord
Grey Seer - General, Talisman of Preservation, Power Scroll, Ironcurse Icon (325)

Hero
Cheiftain - Battle Standard, Armour of Destiny, halberd (122)
Warlock Engineer - Doom Rocket (45)

Core
56 Clanrats - Full Command, Shields (191) [General + BSB bunker here]
50 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (104)
50 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (104)
50 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (106)


Special
6 Rat Ogres - Master-bred Rat Ogre, 4 Packmasters (287)
5 Gutter Runners - Poison & Slings (90)
5 Gutter Runners - Poison & Slings (90)

Rare
Hell Pit Abomination - Warpstone Spikes (250)
Warp-Lightning Cannon (90)
Warp-Lightning Cannon (90)

TOTAL: 1999

so the chracter bunker unit is bigger, and I suppose I could move the characters to the slave units if things got desperate, but shouldn't I really have 2 units of clanrats? where would I get the points to field the second unit, or should I just split the first unit into 2?
I could field the core troops as:
40 Clanrats - Full Command, Shields (196) [General + BSB bunker here]
40 Clanrats - Full Command, Shields (196) [General + BSB bunker here]
50 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (104)
50 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (104)
and I would even have 11 points spare to add to something there. I dont know really, but we're nearly there! I've also started painting ect, so I should have some pics of my first WLC up soon.

I'm currently fielding this:

38 Clanrats - Full Command, Spears, Poisoned Wind Mortar (260.5) [General + Lv1 Warplock Engineer bunker here]
38 Clanrats - Full Command, Spears, Warpfire Thrower (265.5) [BSB + ?v 2 Warplock Engineer bunker here]
50 Slaves - Musician (102)
50 Slaves - Musician (102)

Basically, I separate my BSB and General so neither unit is that much more a target than the other. My opponent also needs to wipe out two horde units to completely remove my Leadership bonuses.

Two units of clanrats + two units of slaves are fine. So you can do that, and then have the BSB and general-grey seer in each their unit.

It would also be nice, as per Warpsolutions suggestion, to have a secondary wizard. You could dump one unit of gutter runners and upgrade the warlock to a level 1 wizard. You would have 40 pts left over from that swap.

thats probably a good idea, and with the 55 points i now have, i just need to find an extrra 15 from somewhere to get a weapons team.

Well or you could get a second warlock Engineer, so that you can have the doomrocket on one, and have the other be the level 1 wizard. That will enable this guy to have a dispel scroll (while keeping the power scroll on your grey seer).

Something like this should be good?

Lord
Grey Seer - General, Talisman of Preservation, Power Scroll, Ironcurse Icon (325)

Hero
Cheiftain - Battle Standard, Armour of Destiny, Halberd (122)
Warlock Engineer - Dispel Scroll, Level 1 Wizard (90)
Warlock Engineer - Doom Rocket (45)

Core
38 Clanrats - Full Command, Shields (191) [General + Engineer bunker]
38 Clanrats - Full Command, Shields (191) [BSB + Level 1 Engineer bunker]
49 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (104)
50 Slaves - Pawleader & Musician (106)

Special
6 Rat Ogres - Master-bred Rat Ogre, 4 Packmasters (287)
6 Gutter Runners - Poison & Slings (108)

Rare
Hell Pit Abomination - Warpstone Spikes (250)
Warp-Lightning Cannon (90)
Warp-Lightning Cannon (90)

TOTAL: 1999

nice, but I would like to get 18 points from somewhee to up the clanrats units to 40 each, just for the extra rank bonus. is this a good idea?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, I need to ask something else.
One of my firends has offered to trade his IOB clanrats for my IOB high elves, but he doesnt have the bsb, warplock engineer, or the rat ogres. one of my other friends was willing to traade me 3 rat ogres and the warlcok engineer for my swordmasters of hoeth and the wings from the gryphon.
is it fair, to trade the lothern sea guard and ellayrian reavers to one guy for his 40 clanrats and 2 weapons teams, and the swordmasters and wings to the other guy for his 3 rat ogres and warlock engineer, and which one should get the mage (I'm planning on converting the gryphons body itself)???

Yeah i think its fair to trade like that, its to the benefit of all involved The mage - id say - should go either to the one who needs/wants it the most, or to the one that trades you the 40 clanrats + weapons (biggest trade).

Your clanrats units are already at 40 each when 2 characters joins each of them

And besides that remember that your rank bonus (both for combat resolution and for Leadership, from the Strength in Numbers rule) caps a a maximum +3 ! So when you have 20 men left in a unit (4 ranks, 5 wide) you have max. rank bonus.
Having more ranks is to retain the max rank bonus through casualties, and also, very importantly because in CC if you outrank your opponent you become steadfast (make breaktests on your unmodified leadership)

Edit: Though if you want to up the clanrats to 40 each, (without characters) simply lose the 6th gutter runner

actually, i hadnt noticed that with the characters, but thats a great idea! ok, thanks, i think we have the list completed now. any advice on tactics???

I agree now maybe lets focus on the general tactícs with the list, then you can always adjust the list once you get experience playing with it.

I have already in my first post given some very general tactical advice, ill just repeat the tactical part of it...

Ok so here you go....

Slaves tarpit the enemy, while you magic them, warp-lightning them, shoot them with poison shots and flank charge them with Hell Pit and Rat Ogres. The slave champs + the champ in the clanrats unit are there to challenge opposing lords, heroes or champs to decrease the amounts of bodies they kill. You dont care much about CR as you should be steadfast (at least initially).

ALL your units will be deployed as 5 wide and 8-10 deep. Ranks are much more important than damage output from skaven core infantry. Rat Ogres, HPA + cannons + magic will be your real damage output! Gutter Runners are best used to go after enemy warmachines, soloing wizards, great eagles, stuff like that. They can box the opponent in too, and force Ld-test for marching for example.

In general i would probably deploy the two clanrats units next to each other in the centre, grey seer on one unit, BSB in the other, and then a slave unit on the flank of each. Perhaps Rat Ogres and HPA between the clanrats and the slaves, or perhaps on the outer flanks of the slaves. This will depend on the deployent zone available and the army you play against etc. Cannons i would deploy BEHIND the army, where they have good LOS to shoot and see over your units, but can't easily be reached.

In general i would myself advance rapidly against armies that outshoot (and/or out-magic) me, and stay rather put against armies that I outshoot (and/or outmagic).
Of course deployment is also dependent on the spells you roll for your wizards.

Well perhaps someone else can help out additionally? Whats your own ideas as well? or do you have specific questions?

yeah, should I wait for the gutter runnersd to come in with their 4+ roll, so i can run on from behind the enemy, or should I scout move them forwards? what should I shoot the wlc's at, troops or characters? and should i take the enemy warmachines out first or go for the troops? should i leave anythiing to guard the wlc's, and most importantly, whats your verdict on the 13th spell?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've also had some ideas on theme. I'm thinking a heavily customized clan skyre army, with all the little engineereey bits, so the tie in with the two warlock engineers and warp lightning canons. but NO CHANGES TO THE LIST, IM NOT LOOKING FOR MORE CLAN SKYRE UNITS, I JUST NEED HELP MAKING THE UNITS IN THE ACTUAL LIST MORE SKYRE-ISH. now, im thinking clan skyre would have lots of slaves for menial work ect, so I'm going to give them all backpacks and engineering tools on their backs ect. the clanrats will all have custom heads, ect, and possibl cutsom weapons. the rat ogres, im not sure yet, but Ii might augment them a bit, for funzies. now the big problem is the HPA. It doesnt seem very skyre-ish, so i can either say that they just hired a HPA from clan moulder, or I can come up with a completley custom clan skyre type vehicle. possibly a couple doomwheels on a big base, with a pltform on top, as if the doomwheels are the wheels to something big, with some sort of gun system on the top, and some mechanical arms to attack with. or a completley scratchbuilt mecha (or possibly made from a dreadknight, but with suitibly skaven customizations, but that would be very difficult, I'd need a very clear plan) but i do love the look of clan skyre. if not i'll just have augmented rat ogres, engineers in training (clanrats) and the engineer's slaves. I dont know about the grey seer, possibly just leave him as a grey seer. if anyone else has ideas please post them, especially about the HPA