Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Even though GW describes the 41st millennium to be dystopian and grimmdark, I don't personally think its that bad

I mean sure the Imperium is a dictatorship, but various governments under the Imperium have their own independent governing bodies

Also the Tau Empire seems to really lighten everything up and the fact that the prominent Space Marine chapters such as the Space Wolves, Salamanders, Blood Angels and the Ultramarines have humanitarian motives seems to lighten things up as well

I guess that Warhammer became less grimmdark over the years

PresidentOfAsia wrote:
Also the Tau Empire seems to really lighten everything up

Nothing says "lightened up" like forced sterilization, ghettos, totalitarian dictatorships, and mind-control.

In fact, that you consider Tau good guys shows what a crapsack place 40k actually is, because they are arguably the goodest guys.

DarknessEternal wrote:

PresidentOfAsia wrote:
Also the Tau Empire seems to really lighten everything up

Nothing says "lightened up" like forced sterilization, ghettos, totalitarian dictatorships, and mind-control.

In fact, that you consider Tau good guys shows what a crapsack place 40k actually is, because they are arguably the goodest guys.

Hey, they don't have any evidence for mind control!

But yeah, it's really that bad.

It used to be a lot darker. go find yourself a copy of Rogue Trader or the second edition 40K, the backstories were a bit more grim.

It wasn't darker, it was more british. And Orks were practically green Space Nazis, not hilarious monsters.
Two things tell you how dark Warhammer is:
Tau are considered neutral or good.
Orks are considered funny.

Of course you need bright spots and a bit humanity on the micro scale. The Imperium couldn't survive if every week a system would be blown up. If you have a bit of luck, you can lead a decent life in the middle layers of a Hive during a period of piece.
If you don't...well, there's Cadia, Armageddon and Necromunda.

I think it could be more dark and disturbing. Too many people see things as "the good guys against the bad guys" ...

I am playing SoB because they are fanatical, cruel warriors, lobotomized by a theocratic dictatorship.
Imho, SM are almighty monastic orders and so beyond the issues that may arise in a normal human life.
That's no "the good side". There is no good side. All the stuff that can make us think that there is a good side is for younger customers, sadly.

Well, let's see..

IOM: Doomed to die. When they do, they will take the entire galaxy with them.

Tyr: Eat anything. Unstoppable. All the galaxy can do is delay the inevitable.

T'au: Space Commies. Nuff said.

DE: S&M hunters that kill to save themselves from their past mistakes.

Eldar: Gone in a few thousand years. Thankfully, when they all die, Ynnead will rise and save the Galaxy.

Orks: Orks. They kill for fun. They don't care about morality.

Deamons: See name for why they are Grimdark.

CSM: See Anti-Christ for full description.


So yeah, 40k is fairly grimdark.

I've seen people make it more grimdark and people think it's messed up. Any darker and people will find it tasteless.

It's dark enough to be interesting, but there's enough humor to keep it from being wretched. As Mr Nobody said, when people make it much grimmer or darker people don't react well. See (or preferably don't) the diorama of a bunch of Guardsmen about to rape an Eldar guardian. That's just too much.

It's gotten to be less of a parody of British culture like Judge Dredd and become more of its own thing. It's still meant to be taken with some humor since it's pretty aware how ridiculous it all is, while still being cool.

Although the background has changed a little, and will continue to change, I think it's core concept will remain the same. The basis of this is not how many skulls are carried on armour, nor how many worlds are wiped out by Nids or exterminatus, but the underlying knowledge that nothing will save humanity from this. There will be no Knight in shining armour,no Luke Skywalkers or Picards, coming in at the last moment to save us in an unlikely display of heroism.

The knights in shining armour did exist for a time, 10,000 years ago, but they turned against each other and destroyed everything they had built in a war of unimaginable proportions. And they started humanity on it's slow, painful and inexorable journey towards destruction. That for me is 'grimdark', the brutal but fair understanding of human nature at the heart of the 40k concept, and it's deeply pessimistic viewpoint of the human condition. It's what separates this sci-fi franchise from many of the others, and I think is why it is so appealing for many of us. Even though part of you cries out for a hero to step in and get the girl, it's that much more evocative because that almost never happens!

If somewhere in the future of the background writing we see a reversal of this - perhaps a voyage to the Nid homeworld to destroy the 'queen', the re-birth of the Emperor and the beginnings of a new crusade, or the purging of orcs so they are no longer a menace to the Imperium. Then that will be the moment that 'grimdark' dies, and we are given something quite different. Fortunately (at least from my perspective) quite a few of the BL writers have gone on to say that they understand this unique character of the 40k background, and so hopefully it will persist for some time yet!

40K is "grimdark" in that it's more grimdark than just about any other setting. It revolves around a general feeling of hopelessness, where there are threats so grave that obliterating billions of innocents to stop them comes out as a net good and hatred and intolerance against non-humans and psychics is the only sane, justifiable path. That the lot of the average Imperial citizen isn't meaningfully worse than that of the average modern human doesn't really weaken that tone.

The Tau certainly don't lighten things up, though. Their open-minded tolerance is actually just ignorance and naivety. Remember the story about them hailing necrons as saviors, and getting slaughtered for it? Or the other one about them working with Dark Eldar, and getting slaughtered for it? When it comes down to actually dealing with problems, they're just as brutal as the Imperium, only with a heaping dose of incompetence to make justified brutality into pointless brutality.

To posters who are reading this I will probably add replys and posts to my threads tommorow as I am a little busy here. Real life is a big distraction. This post is the only one from me for today.

My opinion written here is based on the novels and 4th edition with a few additions of 5th edition fluff and non of the fluff of Matt Ward.

Bah! People have simply become too westernized and soft hearted. Thats what I love about the Imperium of man, instead of acting like most modern real life humans or Cthulhu mythos humans when confronted with evil aliens or daemons, they don't cower in fear. They get more weapons, soldiers and ships and unleash massive amounts of fu@k y*u. They understand what has to be done when the going gets tough and they never back down. People complain about the intolerance of psykers and other religions but they don't understand the context of why the intolerance. I'm sure that if there was a cult in real life that prayed to daemons, people would ignore and tolerate them until they summon daemons. Then anything resembling tolerance or the freedom of religion for that cult would disappear as people would call for the cults annihilation. So please stop the hypocrysy of critisizing the Imperium about that.

40k isn't too Grim Dark to me.

Yes, it is an age of war. An age of horrors modern men of our age can only imagine. But it is ALSO an age of victory!

Man has endured for 10,000 years since the internment of the Emperor in the Golden throne. For 10,000 years mankind has exerted its will on a Galaxy FILLED with foes seeking the slightest taste of human souls and blood.

In a universe that almost seems DESIGNED to cause humanity to fail, mankind survives and sometimes thrive.

Heroes fight impossible odds for the sake of all mankind, and win.

Soldiers fight monsters from realms of nightmare, and win.

Regular ordinary men and women, sustained by faith, continue to embrace survival and mankinds birthright to rule the stars, even when they must live in the most repressive regime imaginable. Because the WISE know that what is done is done for the good of mankind. The Imperium of Man is a sign of hope, only in this crappy universe and not in others of course.

Man, in a malign universe, endures. 10,000 years AFTER the fall of the Man whose foresight was NEEDED to ensure mankinds ascendance, the Imperium STILL rules the stars.

It is filled with men and women who do what must be done.
Who fight the good fight REGARDLESS of the cost to themselves.

IN THE EMPERORS HOLY NAME!!!

I, sometimes in the dark, wonder what would happen if all of us fat, westernized, frail and soft-hearted peole of earth(including myself as one of them) are transported along with our planet to a universe similar to 40k except their is no Imperium of man, only evil aliens and daemons everywhere and god is evil. What would we do? Probably go emo and kill ourselves.

Hey, they don't have any evidence for mind control!

But yeah, it's really that bad.

Havent you read the codex...Ethrals use these helmets to mined control Vespids


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PresidentOfAsia wrote:Even though GW describes the 41st millennium to be dystopian and grimmdark, I don't personally think its that bad
I mean sure the Imperium is a dictatorship, but various governments under the Imperium have their own independent governing bodies
Also the Tau Empire seems to really lighten everything up and the fact that the prominent Space Marine chapters such as the Space Wolves, Salamanders, Blood Angels and the Ultramarines have humanitarian motives seems to lighten things up as well
I guess that Warhammer became less grimmdark over the years

To answer your question I think you have the right to also imagine yourself. I hate it how everything is so negative. So Instead of saying everybody is gonna die and tyranids, or orks, or necrons will rule the universe. I decided to switch it around beacuse its really a matter of opinion and I have to hear many b*ll sh*t things from other people saying 'Imperium is gonna fail, its bound to.' or 'Eldar, or getting raped everyday (even if they sort of do.) by chaos, necrons, and imperium.' or then what I hear most frequently is that, 'Tyranids are winning they are killing everything.' My answer to that is "If they are winning then why Imperium holds, and we hear so many stories of them getting defeated...Just beacuse they are scary doesnt mean they are winning."

My point is that nobody is winning and even tough there are many wars it doesnt mean everything is bad. There are many Imperial and Tau planets that havent even seen wars. There is a lot to this epic tale then just wars.

Yes.

Korraz wrote:It wasn't darker, it was more british.

Same thing

I am sorry, but "grimdark" is not "hoplessly dystopian".

"Grimdark", as coined by 40K (and to a lesser degree Warhammer Fantasy which shares many stylistic points), already carries within itself its own parody. It's dark exaggerated to the point of hilarity. A battle with hundreds or thousands of dead is dire tragedy. A battle with billions upon billons of dead is a spoof. The implausibly vast numbers, scales and extra skulls on top of 40K-style "grimdark" have always fallen firmly into the latter.

Yes, it is.

Maphysto wrote: Yes, it is.

That contains a fair amount of unconfirmed or outright refuted fan-fiction (e.g. Nid's flee from something nastier).

But even without that, it's taking the stuff more serious than the authors arguably do themselves.

See DarkerandEdgier. Than again, the irony inherent to turning everything up to 11 and adding more skulls on top may just be lost state-side; also see AmericanKirbyIsHardcore

Zweischneid wrote:

Maphysto wrote: Yes, it is.

That contains a fair amount of unconfirmed or outright refuted fan-fiction (e.g. Nid's flee from something nastier).

But even without that, it's taking the stuff more serious than the authors arguably do themselves.

See DarkerandEdgier. Than again, the irony inherent to turning everything up to 11 and adding more skulls on top may just be lost state-side; also see AmericanKirbyIsHardcore

I dunno, maybe I'm just a wimp, but I always found 40k to be pretty frightening. The IoM is basically the (il)logical conclusion of everything that's ever been wrong with our species. If you live in the Imperium and don't have the incredible luck to be born into nobility, you're bascially nothing more than a resource to be used. And Emperor help you if you're born a null.

Maphysto wrote:
I dunno, maybe I'm just a wimp, but I always found 40k to be pretty frightening. The IoM is basically the (il)logical conclusion of everything that's ever been wrong with our species. If you live in the Imperium and don't have the incredible luck to be born into nobility, you're bascially nothing more than a resource to be used. And Emperor help you if you're born a null.

It is. But it is so over the top frightinging, that it (purposfully) becomes a pardoy of itself. It's not just industrial wasteland and (near-)slave-labour, it's billions upon billions stuffed into planet-filling hives of industrial menial labour. It's not genetically enhanced super soldiers that fight at the IoMs border, it's immortal, 10ft. super-solders who spit acid and dual-wield chainsaws. It's not a secret police keeping the peace, it's the goddamn spanish inquisition headed by Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau that will just nuke entire planets for their own petty intriques. Oh.. and it has skulls on everything. Lots of skulls with more skulls etched on the skulls.

Brother SRM wrote:See (or preferably don't) the diorama of a bunch of Guardsmen about to rape an Eldar guardian. That's just too much.

Ye gods, that's tasteless. One of the plus sides of playing a wargame set in a fantasy world is that you can absolve it of this kind of thing. Morbid fascination aside, I'm glad I've not seen this. You're right, this is too far, and the maker was taking their toy soldiers to a very nasty place.

Ok, 40k is as grimdark as you want it to be. If you want a serious Ork army, all martial and proud then go for it. Write up a little bit of fluff, create a colour scheme and an army list and just do it! If you want a Space Marine force that dosnt take itself too seriously then ditto Orks.
If I could point you in the direction of the most excellent Chapter 13 on the P&M forum you will see a quite brilliant example of a Marine army that does not take itself too seriously.
Or how about a freak offshoot of a Tyranid Hive that fell throu a wormhole and came out the otherside as vegetarians? I guess the only limit is your imagination. If you have read any 40k novel recently you will see how, besides the normal protagonist 's there is a whole seething mass of humans and aliens in the galaxy just trying to get by....I guess what I'm trying to say is while the official fluff is all well and good, there is so much scope to create your own. So go out there and do it!
Peace.

htj wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:See (or preferably don't) the diorama of a bunch of Guardsmen about to rape an Eldar guardian. That's just too much.

Ye gods, that's tasteless. One of the plus sides of playing a wargame set in a fantasy world is that you can absolve it of this kind of thing. Morbid fascination aside, I'm glad I've not seen this. You're right, this is too far, and the maker was taking their toy soldiers to a very nasty place.

Which is an interesting thing to say about a game in which we regularly build armies and act out irrational genocide and never-ending killing of others, taking pleasure in it...

Maybe I just have skewed morals, Miraclefish.

Maphysto wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

Maphysto wrote: Yes, it is.

That contains a fair amount of unconfirmed or outright refuted fan-fiction (e.g. Nid's flee from something nastier).

But even without that, it's taking the stuff more serious than the authors arguably do themselves.

See DarkerandEdgier. Than again, the irony inherent to turning everything up to 11 and adding more skulls on top may just be lost state-side; also see AmericanKirbyIsHardcore

I dunno, maybe I'm just a wimp, but I always found 40k to be pretty frightening. The IoM is basically the (il)logical conclusion of everything that's ever been wrong with our species. If you live in the Imperium and don't have the incredible luck to be born into nobility, you're basically nothing more than a resource to be used. And Emperor help you if you're born a null.

To me the Imperium makes perfect sense in the 40k setting since it has daemons. Why is it that everyone focuses on the problems of the Imperium in 40k and not the alien races. How about the Eldar, they consider everyone to be inferior. They ruled the galaxy for what seems like millions of years and instead of being constructive and benevolent, they grow bored and decide to bukkake themselves and the human race into hell. The Eldar's "playing" around caused the warp storms that are the main cause of the age of strife and thus the main cause of the fall of human civilization. As I already stated I don't really see 40k as that grimdark, as for what I want. I want 40k to become more mature no more skulls on skulls and massive pauldrons.

Read my previous post and all becomes clear.

Yeah. Tau are awesome good guys. Greater Good and all that. So long as you agree with them and will embrace their way of thinking. Don't forget how they pay off the Kroot - by letting them eat the dead. Wonderful chaps.

The 'independent' governance of the world isn't really that independent. Bad things happen if you don't follow imperial creed and woe be to the planetary governor who falls short on their tithes to the Imperium.

Orks, yeah, ha ha funny red goes faster, blue's lucky, until you read the fluff where poor squishy under equipped guardsman are facing wave after wave of unrelenting green killing machines.

Space Wolves love their Fenrisian Ale, sure and my saddest day will be when there are no more Commissar Cain novels but without any humour at all, it becomes unpalatable.

Don't forget as well that many people start playing 40k as kids before they've even hit their teenage years. Half the time I walk into GW, regardless of which store here I go to and I wonder if it's a wargaming store or a creche. Nothing wrong with ten year olds excited over their first company of Space Marines. They'll grow up experienced 40k players with many more years to play the game than I'll ever have. If you make the 40k setting any darker, parents will not allow their children to play. These kids are your opponents of the future, bringing 40k to a new generation. I'm already part of one international RPG club that's 18+ because of the dark themes and I reckon it's not nearly as dark as 40k.

I may be a little biased here because they scare the living crud outta me but you don't get much scarier than undead, unemotional, semi-sentient, relentless, sixty million year old robots that reform and are bent on killing anything and everything.

Not of course to forget the 'nids. Bugs can be annoying. Swarms can be highly unsettling. Starship Troopers x 100 is down right terrifying.

I wouldn't want to be born a psyker in the Imperium. Small chance I can live. Large chance I, like millions of other pyskers, will be sacrificed to keep the Emperor going.

Studies into special effects have recently shown that CGI being too realistic bombs out at theatres (when the whole movie's done in CGI). It makes it too real but because it's CGI it's unsettlingly 'wrong' to the human psyche. Same with that RPG organisation I'm with. It's setting is very similar to the here and now so more realistic. So even though it's not darker than 40k, it's closeness to our own lives and world make it more serious and therefore 18+.

So yes, 40k is quite grimdark enough. And I love every minute of it.

CadianCommander wrote:Yeah. Tau are awesome good guys. Greater Good and all that. So long as you agree with them and will embrace their way of thinking. Don't forget how they pay off the Kroot - by letting them eat the dead. Wonderful chaps.

The 'independent' governance of the world isn't really that independent. Bad things happen if you don't follow imperial creed and woe be to the planetary governor who falls short on their tithes to the Imperium.

Orks, yeah, ha ha funny red goes faster, blue's lucky, until you read the fluff where poor squishy under equipped guardsman are facing wave after wave of unrelenting green killing machines.

Space Wolves love their Fenrisian Ale, sure and my saddest day will be when there are no more Commissar Cain novels but without any humour at all, it becomes unpalatable.

Don't forget as well that many people start playing 40k as kids before they've even hit their teenage years. Half the time I walk into GW, regardless of which store here I go to and I wonder if it's a wargaming store or a creche. Nothing wrong with ten year olds excited over their first company of Space Marines. They'll grow up experienced 40k players with many more years to play the game than I'll ever have. If you make the 40k setting any darker, parents will not allow their children to play. These kids are your opponents of the future, bringing 40k to a new generation. I'm already part of one international RPG club that's 18+ because of the dark themes and I reckon it's not nearly as dark as 40k.

I may be a little biased here because they scare the living crud outta me but you don't get much scarier than undead, unemotional, semi-sentient, relentless, sixty million year old robots that reform and are bent on killing anything and everything.

Not of course to forget the 'nids. Bugs can be annoying. Swarms can be highly unsettling. Starship Troopers x 100 is down right terrifying.

I wouldn't want to be born a psyker in the Imperium. Small chance I can live. Large chance I, like millions of other pyskers, will be sacrificed to keep the Emperor going.

Studies into special effects have recently shown that CGI being too realistic bombs out at theatres (when the whole movie's done in CGI). It makes it too real but because it's CGI it's unsettlingly 'wrong' to the human psyche. Same with that RPG organisation I'm with. It's setting is very similar to the here and now so more realistic. So even though it's not darker than 40k, it's closeness to our own lives and world make it more serious and therefore 18+.

So yes, 40k is quite grimdark enough. And I love every minute of it.

The Tau are not good guys. The are simply the lesser evil of 40k along with the Imperium and the Eldar. Doi you know ho many atrocities in real life have been commited with the excuse of the "Greater Good"? Hell even the Inquisitions Exterminatus are done for the "Greater Good" of the Imperium and Humanity.

I will post this again for all Tau sympathizers who have been blinded by Tau propanganda:

Friend You are blinded by Tau propaganda. The reason the Imperium launched the Damocles Crusade is because of this:

"Exactly when the Tau Empire and the Imperium of Man first made contact with one another is unknown, for each was slow to recognise the nature of the other. For the Tau's part, it was fringe, dissident or overtly renegade elements of humanity that they first encountered, in the form of Free Captains and pirates across the coreward borders of the region called the Damocles Gulf in the Ultima Segmentum to the galactic east of Terra. The initial contacts ranged from friendly negotiations and trade to outright hostility. It was some time before the Tau Water Caste understood the fact that the humans they had encountered were merely the forgotten outcasts of an incomprehensively vast interstellar empire that stetched across the entirety of the Milky Way Galaxy. This empire was so vast, that any overt agression on the Tau's part might lead to the outright destruction of their nascent empire and the extinction of their species.

Though many of the more passionate leaders of the Tau Fire Caste called for a war of conquest against the Imperium, the Ethereals issued their instructions for the integration of the Imperium of Man into the Tau Empire. The Water Caste were to align themselves with nearby dissident human factions and over the course of several decades of patient negotiations insinuate themselves into the courts of several dozen Imperial Commanders (Planetary Governors). The influence of the Tau thus spread further and more rapidly into the Imperium than any amount of military conquest could have taken it, until a swathe of human worlds were trading with the Tau Empire in preference to the Imperium's own merchant trade cartels and Rogue Traders. Alien goods and technology flowed through the markets of these border worlds in blatant contradiction of the laws of the Imperium. The second phase of the Ethereals' instructions were thus ready to be initiated.

Upon a score of worlds, Water Caste envoys whispered long-rehearsed words into willing ears. The seeds of rebellion had long been cultivated by the Tau and now bore traitorous fruit as each Imperial Governor declared himself free of the shackles of the Imperium's rule. In the ensuing power vacuum, the Tau Empire expanded, claiming for themselves those human worlds that came to be known as the Farsight Enclaves.

The Imperium's response was unusually swift but characteristically brutal. War was declared and the Damocles Gulf Crusade was launched by the Ultima Segmentum Command, involving units of the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy and the several Chapters of Space Marines. "

"the manifest destiny of the Tau to expand the Greater Good across the galaxy. "

I would like anyone reading this to take the analogy of what would happen if the USA was paying no attention to Mexico and generally ignoring Mexicol until it started using their hidden negotiators and manipulators caused Hawaii to secede from USA and join Mexico. I'm sure I don't have to say that America would not be happy about this development.

Also the Tau don't really care for individualism. And even if you are born as a psyker in the Tau empire, you are screwed either way as you either become possessed by daemons or become a warp portal or the Tau experiment on you. You are completely screwed if you are a psyker and human in 40k.

Bad things do happen to those who don't follow the Imperial creed besides the Imperium crushing you like being invaded by aliens or eaten by aliens or being used by aliens like genestealers and don't forget the daemons.

Errr....you missed the sarcasm in what I said.

Damn text and it's lack of tone.

Like completely.

In 40k, noone's the good guy.

No, it is not as grimdark as the internet wants you to believe.

The collective conscience known as the internet is stupid after all.

Yes, it's a dark setting, but not all is suffering and pain. Even in the Imperium, there are some good times. It's practically the Inquisition's job to make sure of that (to justify this-- the Inquisition's members and subbordinates put their lives, minds, and souls in jeopardy in order to make the Imperium a better place, and because of their efforts, there is some small amount of light and joy on some of the planets some of the time that would not be there otherwise). Yeah, the Inquisition is one of the darkest organizations in 40k... but it still does good work, doing its best, sacrificing all in the name of the betterment of mankind's suffering masses.

I use to think Warhammer 40k was kind of Scary and cynical,

but not anymore once I looked more into the fluff

For one, the biggest Space Marine Chapters such as the Salamanders, UltraMarines, Blood Angels and the Space Wolves have very humanitarian motives and are very friendly.

Also, various Guard regiments such as the Catachans or the Elysians don't throw away human lives like the Cadians and even then, Guard Regiments that do throw away human lives a lot always ensures that each Guardsmen dies with full honor instead of being the millionth man to clog up tank treads and not care about it(kind of what Chaos does with Cultist). Also Penal Legions still have a chance at a second life.

Also, the Emperor was an Atheist.