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Anyone ever run a good sized unit of chaos knights, with a character with the favor?
With a pair of shrines, and the +/- 1 favor, you're very likely to get +1 Strength and a 3+ ward with stubborn (mark of tzeench).
A2 S6 magical attacks, with 1+ armor and 3+ ward seems pretty damn brutal to me.
M7 swift stride and S4 mount attacks doesn't hurt either.
You get about half the number of knight to chosen, but don't have to blow points on a terror banner, since you cause fear for free; leaving the banner slot open from some other nice options.
As a final bonus, you can't be stomped/thunder stomped on.


-Matt

I was just thinking about this yesterday. I have 3 battalion boxes that still need to be put together (ok 2 and a 1/2) that I was planning on converting half the warriors into chosen, but thought it would be easier to just use all my knights (sweet models) instead of converting models. Do the mounts get the warshrine bonuses? I don't think they do, but all my stuff has been cleaned up and put away. (again )

only problem with a list like that is spells or attacks that you lose yuor armour save or worse yet lore of metal these can rip down knights fast plus in most cases you will be out numbered and eventually worn down by flank attacks if you dont break a unit on the charge you will be in trouble

that and knights suck this edition (as evidenced by the sheer suckiness of my chaos knights on numerous occasions)

its all infantry all the time for me my good fellow! unless I'm playing Rohan then its more and more and more horsey

cheers

Papasmurf

That could work, as the warshrine does affect the entire unit including the horses. Downside is you are only getting one knight for every two and change chosen, so you are limiting yourself a bit for the extra point of str/save and movement.

It would look pretty sweet though, and knights do hit like a truck. I just don't think you can get enough to deal with steadfast on a regular basis.

Twice as many chosen doesn't matter once the 2nd rank is full.
Lore of metal isn't an issue; You've got a 3+ ward; I'd toss in a sorcerer with the MR1 shield, and you've got a 2+ ward vs spells. Lore of metal only has 2 spells that gain the lore attribute.

Head to head, the knights beat the snot out of the chosen; 1+ armor and mount attacks is that much better than 4+ armor (in a ~10 to 3 kill ratio, at a 2:1 cost).
Against other units; you're looking at 20-30 Kills a turn.
Flank also doesn't matter; reform to face and go to town.

I think the biggest advantage is the one over-looked.
7" + swiftstride charge; and I'd use the movement and the allure of slaansh gift. That gives an average of 18" charge, and enemies who choose to flee, flee slower.

At 2500 points; you can take 29 knights with full command, a magic banner, and the mark. With attached characters, it's vp denial and brutal.

-Matt

I would argue though that even if you can squeeze in lots of knights, to get enough to accept a few losses (rolling 1's or whatever) you need to spend a great many points more than enough for chosen. This will really cut into your core and other unit allotments I think.

It would be interesting to spec out a few lists though and see what you could put together. It would make for a cool list, and I wouldn't be surprised to find it is quite effective, if it can avoid the usual deathstar killers fairly well.

Come to think of it, I wonder if the knights would have more or less trouble with over run and bait units, as they would have to pursue farther most likely, but could then reform then charge farther the next turn to make up for it.

Perhaps more interesting still is how Ogres/trolls would match up. MoT Ogres with GW and chaos armor would be fairly scary too, though perhaps not on par.

One significant threat that chosen worry about is Dreaded 13th. Not an issue for knights.

There's a guy here who's run a pretty large unit on occasion, but we've never matched up when he's done so, so I'm not sure of the details...

How large is pretty large? I'm curious about anyone having success with chaos knights. I love them thematically, they are why I started playing woc....

18? I've only seen it a couple tables over. I'll see if I can't pick his brain for some details.

2400 point, Knight Star.

Sorcerer Lord, level 3, barded steed, charmed shield, puppet, crown of command.
Exaulted BSB, chaos steed, favor of the gods, soporific musk
2x50 Marauders of khorne, full command, great weapons.
2x Warshrines
23 Knight of Tzeench, banner of rage, full command.
Marauders go 5 wide and 10 deep, with the Knight horde between them.
Warshrines fit into the pocket.

Knights could roll in with 54 S6 attacks and 50 S4 attacks.
Sorcerer Lord would go with heavens for the default spell lowering leadership (among other things).

Frenzy is a problem, but with so much hitting power (and stubborn) it's doable. Also, the musk complements the list well, as units that flee go slower, much more likely to get caught. I went with puppet over the dispel scroll, mostly for the offensive miscasting once I've picked up the 4+ ward.

-Matt

How are you deploying the Knights, are they 12 wide or something? Your never going to get all of them into combat, unless you run into something so cheap, that its utterly pointless to kill, Wouldn't it better to just have them 3 deep x 6 wide, this gets them large enough to take away ranks, keeps them a super nasty unit but saves you 240 points minimum?

Remember that horses won't get supporting attacks. Frenzy *is* an issue. The other potential problem is going to be enemy characters who are also stubborn. Courtesy of the Eye of the Gods, you're stuck with a whole bunch of knights watching your BSB, champ, and sorcerer lord get in slap fights with someone...

A problem which I could see with the Knights over the chosen is that they will be out of the warshrine's range pretty early on if they get dragged somewhere by frenzy.

Probably not so big an issue if you roll well on the first turn, but chosen also get that free roll at the start of the game to ensure that they get something good.

So, maybe another reason why not to take the frenzy banner.

Well, you are looking at rerolling a Ld9 to deal with Frenzy. The auto pursue is an issue, but you ought to be able to deal with charges you don't want to make. I think you do need frenzy to have the necessary hitting power though, since you don't have bodies to trade if you get caught in a protracted combat.

Ld8 with re-roll for frenzy.
I'd go 10 wide on the Knights; just to pick up an extra 5 S5 attacks from the rear rank, and reform as needed. It would also give me a wider front for aligning charges on the bait, and more sweeping space on the over-run.
I'm not worried about getting "stuck" in a challenge; the unit champ alone could be tossing out 5 S6 attacks and 3 S5 attacks.
As for not having enough bodies, knights with a 1+ save should be dying at about half the rate of chosen.

The reason for 23 is to squeeze in both characters, minimum core, and 2 shrines. Then all remaining points get dumped into the knight deathstar/vp denial block.

-Matt

Never mind, I am apparently cross eyed this afternoon!