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Hey dakkaites.

I know it is all rumors but i have to speak up and say that i really dont want the C´Tans to disspear when eventually the new necron codex comes out.
Im having a hard time amagening what else type of SC that the necron could have.

I play both BT and Necrons and i have faced C´Tan but never played with them.

I totally agree with that they are monsters and can probably beat most things in close combat. (Granted i have not played with them yet and mostly ignored him when played ageinst one)

I know probably nothing has been decided yet and we only know rumors I just wanted to say that i will be a little sad to see them go.

how about you guys?
Regards, Ogard

C'Tan should definitly stay.

I don't see what removing them does. For those who do not like the C'Tan, there are, and there will be even more alternative HQ options to take. For the C'Tan as they are.. they are IMO one of the cooler elements of Necron lore and should definitly be in the book for those who like them.

Sourcing them out to Forgeworld as rumored, so you'll need to by a pricy FW book and Apoc rules to play the C'Tan you already own, would be the most disgraceful mony-grab of GW yet.

I kind of agree with GW making the C'tan an apoc only unit.

In a standard game of Warhammer, he was simply a powerhouse unit that really didn't do much other than make people run around him. I think that with the new SCs that GW is adding to the 'crons in their new codex, there'll be much more balanced options for necron players.

Plus, it's more fluffy this way. The C'tan are considered to be largely rare, with only a handful still in existence. Making them an apoc only unit would give them a REAL reason to show up on the battlefield, instead of popping up for every little deployment of necron.

Fine, but nothing is stopping you or your group right now from fielding C'Tan only in APOC games.

Why take the option away from people who do not play APOC or, quite frankly, consider any 40K game to be a rather special engagement (hence it is worth being on the table anyways). Sure C'Tan are rare, but so is the Swarmlord, Dante, Vect or Maugan Ra. If 40K games were played according to the (lack of) rarity in the fictional background universe, things like Necrons (or Eldar, Dark Eldar, the Inquisition, even regular Space Marines) should probably not be available as armies for selection in the first place, since they are fairly rare in the general way of things in the 40K universe.

Every Guardsmen longs for the opportunity to kill a God with a lucky shot, but fluffwise this is nonsense.
Having some game mechanic like in DoW, where a Necron Lord transforms into the Avatar of a God is more acceptable.

Kroothawk wrote:Having some game mechanic like in DoW, where a Necron Lord transforms into the Avatar of a God is more acceptable.

Why?

Problems with a ctan - they could be chaos spawned, they died to 4 missiles... they don't kill lots of stuff...

While they have been going away from having a minimum point level for certain SCs, the C'Tan may be the exception.
However, even in "normal" games of 40k, the battle you're fighting is usually considered to be part of a larger battle, you're just concentrating the focus on the battle you're in. So I don't really see why the C'Tan would need to be an Apoc only entry.
Heck I can take Vect vs Grimnar in a 1000pt game if I agreed to it with my opponent.

I actually think it's almost counter-intuitive.

If I play APOC, I wanna see Titans, Tank formations, massive columns of soldiers, wings of flyers and general large-scale warfare. SC's (or stuff like C'Tan) is more a distraction there.

If I wanna "zoom in" on the decisive/climatic campaign-showdown between Chapter-Masters/Phoenix Lords/Necron Gods, I wanna play a 1000 to 1500 pts. game to keep the focus on these personalities and not have the "narrative" spoilt by some random super-heavy dropping into the game.

ShaiAhlude wrote:So I don't really see why the C'Tan would need to be an Apoc only entry.

Because the stats they have aren't very good at representing a sun eating Star God?

Seriously, my problem has always been(other than that you can somehow do some of the stuff you can to a deity) that they're some pretty wimpy gods compared to the servants of other gods(Greater Daemons, the Daemon Lord Gargantuan Creatures).

I like C-tans. I like using them. But i think it would make more sense them not being in the codex (maybe not even being in APOC) I mean, i don't know fluff that well. But they are Gods, from reading bits on here the Deceiver makes them eat each other and tricked one to imprison itself. So when faced against a small Marine force, how on earth could it die? Even being generous to the Marines, the least that could happen is they all run away, but essentially the Deceiver would probably just laugh and make them kill each other or something. But unless you hide it behind a Monolith or something, it will probably just get shot with a few LC and die pretty quickly with its 4++ save.

Platuan4th wrote:

ShaiAhlude wrote:So I don't really see why the C'Tan would need to be an Apoc only entry.

Because the stats they have aren't very good at representing a sun eating Star God?

Seriously, my problem has always been(other than that you can somehow do some of the stuff you can to a deity) that they're some pretty wimpy gods compared to the servants of other gods(Greater Daemons, the Daemon Lord Gargantuan Creatures).

Dark Eldar steal and contain suns simply to have some no-refill-needed streetlights. In the Badab War, Culln gutted a nearby star to suicide its burning core into the planetary defenses, and largely did so as a ducttape & desperation strategy because he was low on "proper" warships. Vect keeps black-holes-in-a-box as party crackers. Yet noone believes those should be "apoc-only". Doing mischiev with a sun or star isn't a huge issue in the 40K-verse by and large.

And stats always reflect poorly on the fluff. Space Marine stats famously don't life up to their fluff. Most anything in 40K can just about outrun a pistol-bullet (i.e. 12" in one turn). As much as I try, Maugan Ra's stats simply will not let him hold off an entire Hive Fleet all by his jolly self. If C'Tan get removed for "rule-fluff-inconsistencies", instead of staying due to the "rule-of-cool", they better also drop everything else from 40K that "doesn't make sense with respect to the fluff".

@Platuan4th: I see your point, but there is no way they could put actual "diety" stats in a game. It's more like the stats for a physical shell. Also, it's not like our games of 40k actually effect the 40k universe.
Otherwise my Archon has actually killed Baharroth, Vulkan He'stan and Kharn to name a few

C'Tan are meant to be the equivalent of the Chaos Gods, right? If the Chaos Gods have stats similar to those of a tabletop C'Tan, I have lost all respect for Eldar Harlequins.

htj wrote:C'Tan are meant to be the equivalent of the Chaos Gods, right? If the Chaos Gods have stats similar to those of a tabletop C'Tan, I have lost all respect for Eldar Harlequins.

A Daemon is a creature formed from a fragment of a Chaos God's consciousness. They form the armies of the Chaos Gods, and frequently battle the armies of other gods and unbelievers on the material plane. The "physical" manifestation of Khorne or Nurgle on a "field of battle" may be a Legion of their respective greater daemons, or as little as a single Bloodletter or even Nurgling, simply as much as they "can" manifest physically in a given time and place.

Either way, there is no 40K fluff available that I am aware of that says Gods in 40K are undefeatable and/or unkillable. Neither C'Tan, Chaos or Eldar Gods are omnipotent Gods in the sense of the abrahamic religions. They are "simply" powerful beings. I presume most of them, including the Chaos Gods, would be statted somewhere in the range of Greater Daemons, Special Characters and the like for game-purposes. There is nothing intrinsic to the status of "godhood" in 40K that would make you more or less powerful than your next neighbour.

Chaos Gods themselves, in fluff, do have physical manifestations and are generally MUCH more powerful than their Greater Daemon servants. This is painfully obvious with Skarbrand, who found this out the hard way.

Chaos Gods in of themselves are unkillable, since even if one shred of the emotions they represent exist, they will endure as well. The only way to permanently put them down is to kill off all traces of said emotion, which would mean killing every known race with emotions in the galaxy.

C'tans, however, are another kettle of fish altogether. The current stats were devastating back when they were first introduced, but power creep kinda made them less overwhelming. These are the guys who fought with the Old Ones, who imprinted the fear of death on all living creatures (except Orks) and who eat stars for breakfast (literally). They're also the oldest of any characters in the entire setting, predating perhaps even the Chaos Gods themselves, so it's a bit jarring when a mortal, even one as old as Vect, can have a higher stat in any of the skills department.

Personally I like the move to Apoc. The only C'tan I can see that would actually go into a small engagement is the Deceiver. If any army saw the Nightbringer or of the Void Dragon awoke, they'd definately send in an apoc-level army to deal with them.

A greater daemon is a minion of a good, carrying but a fragment of it's power. A single Chaos god would be more closely represented by something the equivalent of all of it's daemons combined. Assuming it could physically manifest. Which it can't. So the point is kind of moot really. But if a Chaos god was a tough to kill as a Greater Daemon, the Harlies would have offed them all in the warp by now, surely?

However, the way C'Tan are written up in the fluff, they should be significantly more powerful than they are in game. I would see them as having an equivalent power relative to one of the larger titans.

They can devour entire suns, so being ID'd by a poison blade seems very unfluffy to me.

EDIT: Actualy I'm unsure of them completely devouring suns, but they do feed on stars before being given physical form. Still though, it's pretty impressive. Also, how does poison weapons even work on them?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:They can devour entire suns, so being ID'd by a poison blade seems very unfluffy to me.

EDIT: Actualy I'm unsure of them completely devouring suns, but they do feed on stars before being given physical form. Still though, it's pretty impressive. Also, how does poison weapons even work on them?

Well, with any luck their future iteration will be immune to poison and with a 2++ instead of a 4++.

My friend is still ticked at Skulltaker being able to basically one-shot a C'tan with his special rending attack.

Dr_Wasabi wrote:I kind of agree with GW making the C'tan an apoc only unit.

In a standard game of Warhammer, he was simply a powerhouse unit that really didn't do much other than make people run around him. I think that with the new SCs that GW is adding to the 'crons in their new codex, there'll be much more balanced options for necron players.

Plus, it's more fluffy this way. The C'tan are considered to be largely rare, with only a handful still in existence. Making them an apoc only unit would give them a REAL reason to show up on the battlefield, instead of popping up for every little deployment of necron.

What!! in a standard game the are a powerhouse. yes, that is true, but, have you seen the stuff GW has put out lately. come on, paladins are way overpowered. two wound teminators that you can outfit differently and make them damn near impossible to kill off. so what if there is something out there even more powerfull. I like the idea of the c'tan. i have only seen them used rarely as it is. there is no need to take them out of the next codex as that is part of what makes the necrons who they are. some anciet dieties who most likely created the necrons from scratch or some culture that ticked them off.

It's able to one-shot the C'tan's current necrodermis shell, not the actual C'tan. The codex fluff is pretty clear that they need the shells in order to focus themselves enough to actually deal with things as insignificantly small as the things that occupy a 40K battlefield.

That's what the explosion is when you 'kill' a C'tan. The shell being breached and all that star god gushing out into pure energy form until it can get another shell readied. So it might be 'easy' to kill a C'tan in battlefield terms, but that only takes it out of play temporarily.

martin74 wrote:What!! in a standard game the are a powerhouse. yes, that is true, but, have you seen the stuff GW has put out lately. come on, paladins are way overpowered. two wound teminators that you can outfit differently and make them damn near impossible to kill off. so what if there is something out there even more powerfull. I like the idea of the c'tan. i have only seen them used rarely as it is. there is no need to take them out of the next codex as that is part of what makes the necrons who they are. some anciet dieties who most likely created the necrons from scratch or some culture that ticked them off.

While true, Paladins are powerful, they're also statted out quite standardly, the C'tan have an incredible statline, but even so they prove to be not as powerful as they're made out to be in the fluff. Paladins however aren't much stronger than your average marine, save for an extra wound. And it makes sense for them to be kitted out quite well, they're elite units, and trusted with much more sensitive missions than your average marine. It wouldn't make sense to send them out the door with just a bolt pistol and a pat on the bum.

I dunno, the C'tan always seemed like more of an Apocalypse unit to me anyway. They're a freaking god, they deserve to have crazy high stats. So if they are indeed made to be an apocalypse only unit, maybe they'll get buffed to be even more powerful, more 'godly'.

Zweischneid wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Having some game mechanic like in DoW, where a Necron Lord transforms into the Avatar of a God is more acceptable.

Why?

It's far more sensible and reasonable that's why. Think of it this way - in tabletop terms in current games, the Nightbringer and Deciever can potentially be kicked down in CC by Lysander, which is suggesting a mere Space Marine can destroy a God. Urm, no. That's like saying an Ork Nob can potentially beat down Khorne. By rights he has no chance or ever doing so.

In current form as quite a few have stated, the C'tan are severly understated. You cannot physically represent a God in a standard game porperly. Now with Avatars you get Essences of, which makes more sense since its a portion of the power of the God being used, instead of the God itself. Apocolypse would let the C'tan go wild should they be moved there.

And I'm a big Nightbringer fan, so...

But the C´tan we see on the 40k battlefield is only their essense in a necrodermis shell.

so for 1 lysander gets his ass beaten every time by any of them. But that is besides the point.
If lysander would not be killed 1st round. witch he usually gets when assulted by a str 9 ws 5 ini 5 model who ignores his armor and inv save then sure he could be able to breach the necrodermis shell.
That does not mean he acually managed to harm the C´tan.

I just dont see the need for them to move to apoc only. There is alot of characters with similar stat lines,eg, ghazkull,abbadon, mephiston and so ´forth.

imho.

Regards,Ogard

Keep them in both represting different shells for different tasks.

Small shell for 40k Battles
Big Shell for Appoc and Epic battles

job done