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Hello to everyone, I was at my local gaming store playing a game where a problem arised.

I was playing against the standard guard mech list with my blood angels. Around turn 3 I got my assault squads out of their rhinos and blew up two chimeras. Now here is what ticked me off, he used the GW craters and put all his models on top of the raised edges of the craters, staying as far back as he can from my assault squads. What I thought was going to be a 3-4 inch assault range turned into 7 inches, he did this to all of his squads to avoid me. Now I told him "shouldn't they be in the crater?". He ignores me, so I ask him again "they are on the template" is the response I got. I knew that this guy is a WAAC player, bring a tourny list against my fluffy army, but that move he pulled was so just low. So I knew I could not assault them so I fired my preds at the downed squads, and claims that his squad gets a cover save when his models ARE NOT IN THE CRATER. That was the last straw, out of all the crap he pulled, so I packed up and left. Rant over.

So my questions are : in a vehicle expolsion, do the models inside have to be INSIDE the crater or anywhere on the crater template

And: can you get a cover save being on the raised edges of a crater not inside?

I really couldn't find anything in the BGB , but if you do please tell me!

as i know it they disembark the vehicle. they cannot be placed anwhere, its where they ran out of the chimera. the crater is at the center of where the vehicle was, the models inside are then placed around where the access points would be.

as to the cover save, thats a "decide before game" rule. imo if they are in they are in, the models base is either in or not since the line of the crater cannot be bigger then the models base.

also, how did you have assault guys in your rhino? i assume they didnt have jump packs, but im curious.

Kenzosan: only for wrecked does the squad simply exit the vehicle, Explodes places you in the Crater/where the tank used to be(crater is not necessary).

Ultrafool: BRB page 67 is the passage you want: "The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a pinning test."

It is not "anywhere in/on the crater" it is "where the vehicle used to be"; the crater can be any size you feel like plopping down: but any transported units will be in the space formerly occupied by the transport.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Kenzosan: only for wrecked does the squad simply exit the vehicle, Explodes places you either in the Crater, or Where the tank used to be.

Ultrafool: BRB page 67 is the passage you want: "The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a pinning test."

It is not "anywhere in/on the crater" it is "where the vehicle used to be"; the crater can be any size you feel like plopping down: but any transported units will be in the space formerly occupied by the transport.

ah i see, i guess i used my personal rule for it. when i use that rule i just, for me, put my guys around where the doors were

otherwise we agree, its not "anywhere in the crater"

@ Kenzosan--When a transport explodes, the model is gone and models inside inside are placed inside a crater, they do not dismembark because there is no vehicle to disembark from. And if my rhinos did not move, my squads can dismembark, move, and assault.

@ Kommissar Kel -- Thank you, so by that means, he could have not placed his guys on the ridges of the craters, they have to be in the spot where the transport was.

A lot of tournament players carry around paper/mache/felt/plasticard markers that are precisely the size of their vehicles. I have felt pads that are cut into the shape of Dark Eldar Raiders. Other players have them cut into the shape of a rhino, or land raider, or wave serpent, chimera...you get the picture.

When a vehicle explodes, you replace the vehicle with a conveniently shaped crater precisely the size of the vehicle that was just exploded. Viola!

It doesn't help your current situation, but having them prevents issues on either side ever again.

Thanks Dash, I'll remember to cut out some templates next time I head out to game.

The "Crater or area of difficult terrain" left behind by an exploded vehicle is supposed to be the same size as the vehicle itself.

The owning player is free to place his surviving models anywhere in that area that he likes, but it must be in that area.

Note that the unit Disembarks (for Wrecked) or is placed (for Explodes) BEFORE he takes the Pinning test. He has to commit to the placement of the models before he knows whether they're Pinned or free. I often see people roll the Pin test first, but that's a violation of the rules, and gives them a significant advantage in knowing whether they want to place them defensively or not.

As for the last question - craters are NOT area terrain, therefore normal LOS rules apply. You would have ot agree to change the rules for units not physically covered by the crater to make the crater area terrain for him to gain cover as you said.

The "cover Chart" on page 21 BRB does mention Craters.


Under the "4+" section, 4th line, last word.

Craters would seem to be area terrain and give a 4+ cover save.

svendrex wrote:The "cover Chart" on page 21 BRB does mention Craters.


Under the "4+" section, 4th line, last word.

Craters would seem to be area terrain and give a 4+ cover save.

Also on page 13, under Area terrain, they give craters as an example of area terrain.

Mannahnin wrote:The "Crater or area of difficult terrain" left behind by an exploded vehicle is supposed to be the same size as the vehicle itself.

The rules say "The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater." P61

No guidance or limit is placed on the size of the difficult ground. Commonsense would suggest that it is similar in size to the vehicle but also that it would be somewhat larger than the vehicle (otherwise it would be a vehicle, not scattered wreckage)

Scott-S6 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The "Crater or area of difficult terrain" left behind by an exploded vehicle is supposed to be the same size as the vehicle itself.

The rules say "The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater." P61

No guidance or limit is placed on the size of the difficult ground. Commonsense would suggest that it is similar in size to the vehicle but also that it would be somewhat larger than the vehicle (otherwise it would be a vehicle, not scattered wreckage)

i dont have the brb with me, but as mentioned earlier the crater is the size of the vehicle. im guessing this is for tournament play, but unsure. w/e the size of the crater the models still dont get placed anwhere in it, they go where the vehicle was.

kenzosan wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The "Crater or area of difficult terrain" left behind by an exploded vehicle is supposed to be the same size as the vehicle itself.

The rules say "The vehicle is then removed and is replaced with an area of difficult ground representing scattered wreckage or a crater." P61

No guidance or limit is placed on the size of the difficult ground. Commonsense would suggest that it is similar in size to the vehicle but also that it would be somewhat larger than the vehicle (otherwise it would be a vehicle, not scattered wreckage)

i dont have the brb with me, but as mentioned earlier the crater is the size of the vehicle. im guessing this is for tournament play, but unsure. w/e the size of the crater the models still dont get placed anwhere in it, they go where the vehicle was.

The rulebook does not specify crater size - I gave you the only quote that references the crater.

At our local game store we've gone as far as buying up really cheap busted up tanks and creating very convenient craters by gluing the bits in an awesome diorama of wreckage on a hard base roughly the size of the tank.

Otherwise you definitely have to be placed where the tank used to be, then take the pinning test, and then yes, the crater is area terrain conferring a 4+ cover save.

It is in fact whatever size crater you want.

While some are saying common sense should have the crater the same size as the exploded vehicle; that doesn't even make sense: it should be the same size as the vehicle explosion! Take your base vehicle size, then make your self 6 crater markers, each on 1" larger in radius than the last.

You still have to place the unit in the area that the vehicle used to be. You cannot have a 10" diameter crater come off of your chimera, then have your guardsmen all line up around the perimeter; they will all be in the center.

I agree. But for friendly play and keeping it simple, we didn't make 6 different sized craters for one Rhino lol.

We use stones usually used to decorate fish tanks to outline craters, since then we have much less "wobbly model syndroms" or problems with people using exact footprints of their vehicles to deny assaulting units cover.

We use the GW craters. Admittedly, they suck really bad. Most of the craters are way entirely too big for the vehicle that exploded.

Also, craters are supposed to be treated as difficult ground according to the rules. And, if you look real careful, the ridges on the craters aren't even tall enough to grant models cover saves based on TLOS. My FLGS just sort of plays it that if you are in the crater and you are not a vehicle or MC, then you get a 4+ cover save.

Either way, I probably wouldn't play that guy again. He is not allowed to place his models outside of the footprint that the transport has when it exploded. Doesn't matter what the shape of the crater is. The whole crater thing is optional anyway.

I have had the same exact problem in the past with a player not placing his models where the vehicle used to be.

There is a section in the beginning of the BRB that talks about measuring bases and in that section it tells you that a model is said to occupy its base. That helped me stop that guy from trying to place his models out of assault range.

One thing that I do because my Rhino hatches are magnetized, I place the top hatch where the Rhino used to be and then place all my models around that hatch before filling it in. When placed, the models are pretty much right where the Rhino used to be and also just about the same size.

Two things....

First how did he manage to get a chimera full of guardsmen to stand on the rim of one of those GW craters? I ask because I end up just throwing my guys in the middle of the crater and hope for the best lol.

Secondly that WAAC gamer just wants take to have his cake and esat it too! I can't stand that type of player, its not a tourny, there is nothing up for grabs, just have fun. A good rule of thumb is that for every advantage there is a disadvantage (unless you're space wolves). There is no way he should have been able to get away from you AND get that cover save.

So, to summarize:
1. The models are placed where the vehicle was, not where the crater is. The crater is irrelevant.
2. The rules do not give a rule on how big the crater is supposed to be, but leaves that to your better judgement.
3. The rules state the area is difficult ground (problems with terminology, GW?)
4. The GW FAQ says that the crater is area terrain conferring 4+ cover. FAQ also hints that the crater is supposed to be similar size as the vehicle.

So, placing the models at the edge of the crater is a rules breach, since a circular crater for a imperial vehicle is likely going to have large areas where the vehicle hull did not cover. Educate the offender of the words on page 67 "where the vehicle used to be".

ka-bingo!