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Is it worth running an Allied WH Inquisitor Lord in Mech IG to counter Grey Knight Fortitude?

I'm considering the Witch Hunter Inquisitor Lord but he is so expensive to be useful in only a few match ups and even then its not that awesome to be worth min 87 pts

WH Inquisitor Lord + Hood + 3 of the cheapest guys is 87 pts

WH Inquisitor Lord + Hood + 3 melta henchmen to put in a vendetta = 125 pts

Matchups this is good
Grey Knights Fortitude (this is the big one)
BA Mephiston wings, shield of sanguianus, the fear thing that makes you run if you fail your leadership.
Eldar - Fortune
Space Wolves - living lightning, and that dumb tempest thing can be annoying for Vendettas.
Nids - zoanthropes
Space marines - machine curse (roll to hit then if hit get a glancing hit), gate of infinity to jump on objectives

Sounds expensive but Fortitude is a huge blow out vs Mech IG when you roll bad for damage results your stunned/shaken is ignored while grey knights keeps moving up and shooting you and each stunned/shaken reduces your fire power.

Don't like the crutch either but playtest games have been going badly. I been crushed every time I played GK with mech ig on account of fortitude. Although every GK playtest I had was against a GT winning quality playerincluding yermom here and some UK GT finalists via vassal. I did make some mistakes being too aggressive with Alrahem in 2 games but even with that it was a total blow out in the 2 other games too. Latest game vs yermom he unstunned/shaken 5 tanks in one round and just outshot me it was ridiculous. Even if fortitude fails they can just get out and blast with psycannon anyway assuming they moved into range so the hood might not be worth the points.

The Primaris Psyker really should have had a 24 inch psychic hood. I'd take him if he did.

yeah the game is breaking with all the psykic powers out there and half the armies not having any psykic defense.

Yes and not just for the reasons you listed.

Grey Knights are the major reason but it actually carries over to other armies. Given that Grey knights are so new, and so many people are working on countering them, you will see a lot more psychic defense being thrown around. The thing is, that other than null rod witch hunter inquisitors, all psychic defense comes in the form of psychic units.

Double runepriest SW were common before GK came around and so were librarians in SM and BA armies. Now, those units are being seen as mandatory given how much defense their hoods provide against the army-wide psychic abilities of GK. People are going to be taking these units, and chances are they plan on actually using them for more than hoods, which means casting psychic powers. Hence you get use out of the inquisitor countering the other armies' GK defense as well.

Bruteboss wrote:
Grey Knights are the major reason but it actually carries over to other armies. Given that Grey knights are so new, and so many people are working on countering them, you will see a lot more psychic defense being thrown around. The thing is, that other than null rod witch hunter inquisitors, all psychic defense comes in the form of psychic units.

DE crusible of malidiction is not psyker based anti psyker.

otherwise I agree with you. If an eldar player ever thought about not taking a farseer before he wont think about it now. 3d6 psykic tests and a hood just owns.

I'd say yes. I'm going to start trying one out soon. it's worth it with the Eldar players i face and a friend has just started running 2 lash princes in his 2k list again.

The big pains other then fortitude really are

GK FORTITUDE :(
BA shield of sanguinus 5+ cover and fear the darkness oops you ran off the objective after your vehicle was trashed
Eldar Fortune + jetlocks or fortune + scoring falcon

Lash wasn't even on my radar I cut out the platoons on foot as they are too cover dependent and would usually die fast anyway. Once guardsmen get blown out of their vehicle they tend to die pretty quick whether they get lashed or not.

Considering how many people are shoving psychic hoods down our throats now, i'm pretty much just counting on destroying the unit with the hood before continuing with my assaults anywhere else. Target priority is the librarian, or the farseer, etc, etc. Looks like the old exitus rifle will be getting some action.

But anything that gives you the ability to block out a major advantage of a codex is something to be considered. If you are really getting hamstrung by fortitude, then get something to counter it.

Keep in mind that WH Inq allies will probably be gone very soon....as soon as the new WH dex comes out.

But if you're going to ally a WH Inq, get 3 veterans with plasmas. They're cheaper than IG plasmas, and you get the better 4+ for Get's Hot! saves compared to 5+ for guardsmen.

Mech IG lists had been running Inquistor lords before GK showed up, mainly against mech eldars/jetseers, rune priests, BA priests and mephiston, and etc. The cheapest would be Hooded Lord with 3 familiars at 83 pts.

The problem is not Mech IG cant outshoot GK(even with fortitude), becuz they easily can... The problem is YOUR mech IG runs a huge point sink in Al-Ra's infantry platoon, it is almost 25% of your 1850 army. Alpha striking is one of IG's strengths, no codex right now can dish out the kind of long range fire power that IG can. With 22% of your army in reserve, you are really limiting yourself. And even if you decide to not reserve the platoon, it has no long range shooting to matter.

Now lets talk about GK, non-coteaz henchman lists usually wont have enough pts to efficiently field 6 rifledreads(3 ven), most likely 3-4 max, so that is a good thing. Psycannon is only 24", if you deploy smartly most likely the GK rhinos will move at cruising speed on turn 1 to get into range or LOS. The dreads will hang back and abuse their S8 ACs. So pretty much if you get to first go, you will have shot at them twice before any of the psycannons shot at you. And remember its only AV11 rhinos and GKs still are just expensive marines. I rather face them than greyhunter spams.

And alot of the GK lists I've seem doesnt run librarians... once GK units got out of the 12" advance aegis bubble, they become easy prey to psychic powers. With PBS you will have alot of fun with them. My all-comer Mech IG lists runs 3 manticores and PBS or just 2 manticores and a executioner. Executioners just eats any squads of MEQ/TEQ for dinner.

My suggestion would be to hold off on the inquisitor lord, drop Al-Ra's platoon and get yourself 3 manticores and more meltavets and if you want bring the the PBS. See how you do against them, if you somehow still have trouble with their fortitude power, then get the lord.

SonsofVulkan wrote:
The problem is not Mech IG cant outshoot GK(even with fortitude), becuz they easily can... ....no codex right now can dish out the kind of long range fire power that IG can.

I beg to differ. Have you played against some of the good mech-MSU marine armies out there? Mech-BA, long fang-razorwolves and GK dread-spam can all outshoot a balanced IG at range.

jy2 wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:
The problem is not Mech IG cant outshoot GK(even with fortitude), becuz they easily can... ....no codex right now can dish out the kind of long range fire power that IG can.

I beg to differ. Have you played against some of the good mech-MSU marine armies out there? Mech-BA, long fang-razorwolves and GK dread-spam can all outshoot a balanced IG at range.

Indeed. IG has immense short range firepower, and medium amounts of long range. A lot of the shooty marine builds just trump IG at the long range game.

And anyone who doesn't realize that fortitude is an absolute beatstick...I don't know what to say. One of IG's main abilities is to pump out shots and suppress enemy return fire since it's a fairly fragile army. If its all or nothing blow it up or it keeps coming forward and firing, it's bad for the IG, because their reliable AT (meltaguns) are only available at short range. If you let the marines get to you to use those meltas, you're already having issues when 5 guys dump out and start charging your boxes.

jy2 wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:
The problem is not Mech IG cant outshoot GK(even with fortitude), becuz they easily can... ....no codex right now can dish out the kind of long range fire power that IG can.

I beg to differ. Have you played against some of the good mech-MSU marine armies out there? Mech-BA, long fang-razorwolves and GK dread-spam can all outshoot a balanced IG at range.

When you say outshoot, so you mean target selection or the volume of high strength long range shots(over 24") dispense? Because to me it has to be both. The only way for BA to shoot many targets at long range is obviously las/plas razorspam(5) and run like 2 stormravens that is a total 7 different targets, however the razorbacks can only fire one lascannon each, the stormraven will probably kill anything it targets before getting blown out of the guy next turn. For GK, it has to be coteaz-henchman spam and 5-6 rifledreads, which means 20-24 S8 shots at 5-6 different targets at the expense of running very little GKs and thus less psycannons. Shooty SW probably is the only one that is close to or equal to IG, Reecius's Krak spam is just ridiculous. Now when you say balance IG list, do you mean mech and foot? A all-comer IG list is all mech... Such as 3 manticores, 3 vendettas, and I like to run 4 squads of meltavets in chimera with 1 heavy wep(AC or missile) each. That is 10 multiple targets... not counting the multi-lasers on AV11 ofcourse. On average the manticore should be able to spit out 2 S10 rockets each, if shooting at parking lots, decent chance of hitting 2 vehicles. These numbers are based on 1850 lists.

Not saying Mech IG will always own MSU marines, they can easily get beat even after destroying all the rhinos/razorbacks and dreads. With enough chimeras getting crack opened, the marines will slaughtered the guardsman for the win and their outflankers/deepstrikers can take out the manticores. But in terms of alpha striking and putting out both volume and the amount of targeting, you are wrong... except the MSU shooty SW.

jy2 wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:
The problem is not Mech IG cant outshoot GK(even with fortitude), becuz they easily can... ....no codex right now can dish out the kind of long range fire power that IG can.

I beg to differ. Have you played against some of the good mech-MSU marine armies out there? Mech-BA, long fang-razorwolves and GK dread-spam can all outshoot a balanced IG at range.

Mech BA doesn't outshoot IG, Long Fang/Razorwolves is strong but IMO outweighed by some of the special attacks available to Imperial Guard armies, and honestly GK dread spam is practically a list-tailor army and I doubt it will be seen at serious events after the first few months.

Allied Witch Hunter Inquisitors just for the hood doesn't seem worth it. The allied witch hunter inquisitor doesn't give you that much benefit other then the hood unlike the defunct daemonhunter variant which gave you the tarot, mystics and psycannon. If your going to give him Meltas in a Vendetta he will be dead really fast giving up 2 kill points one for the Inquisitor and second for the retinue. The Librarians of the various Marines all give you good psychic powers in addition to the hood so are worth taking. Even if you spend for a hood unless you hide it it will likely get shot and killed and hoods only block less then 50% of the fortitude.

I really dislike fortitude as even with psychic protection it is game altering letting Grey Knights out shoot most armies.

jy2 and targetawg are correct the shooty Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Blood Angels lists put out comparable if not better ranged anti tank fire as Imperial Guard does.

BA Razorspam can shoot two weapons on the move because of fast vehicles so can move 6 and fire both las cannon and tl plasma gun. The lists I see tends to run predators instead of storm ravens. cheaper better av front + puts out more shots over the course of the game. Storm Ravens have good alpha strikes launching all 4 bloodstrikes in one salvo but over the rest of the game a predator is better assuming it doesn't die and gets to keep shooting. For the price of 2 storm ravens you can almost have 3 Predators with las cannon sponsons.

At 1850 BA razor + predator spam can shoot 9 different targets with strength 7/9 shots at 48 and 3 different targets with str 6 shots at 24. 6 razors and 6 predators. Those razors can move 12 and fire one weapon or 6 and both.

My 2000 point wolf list can fire at 11 different targets with strength 8+ at 48 inches while rushing you with thunder kitties and grey hunters in rhinos with wolf scouts backstabbing you.

Grey Knights at 2000 pts really depends on the player and their list but given 3 psyriflemen being the standard with a possible 3 more venerables and then 5 strike squads w psy cannon/henchmen in a lasplas razor for scoring units and purifiers with psycannons or venerable dreads for elites that can move and fire your looking at 3-6 targets taking str 8 fire at 48 and 5-8+ different targets taking str 7 fire at 24+ 6 movement so about 11 different targets.

Your 2000 IG can shoot at only 5 different targets with strength 8+ and 8 different targets with str 7+.

Your getting outshot here is the big problem. Fortitude is just makes it worse because your shooting results just are nulified unless they are destroyed or weapon destroyed results.

I hate to say but if you want to be the most competitive you will retire Gimperial Guard and pick up Space Wolves, Grey Knights or Blood Angels. Their shooting anti tank better or at the same level but you lose incredibly awesome Manticores and the outflanking Alrahem in exchange for not failing in the assault phase and dying in the explosion of your vehicle.

jy2
Previously I would stuff a Veteran squad in a Vendetta and have the Inquisitor take their Chimera back when I took the DH one for the psycannon, mystics and tarot. That might be the way to go take WH Inquisitor Lord with hood and 3 warriors with plasma guns for 125 pts and have them take a Vet Chimera.

targetawg
You are right Grey Knight Fortitude is the absolute beatstick for IG and other mech armies. Other Marine armies I can stun/shake if not kill their ranged fire and maybe still have some shots to put into advancing units. Grey Knights unless you have a hood they just ignore half the damage table and keep on shooting / advancing.

Avariel
The plasma warriors + inquisitor jy2 mentioned is pretty useful for killing Marines and mcs they cost slightly more then a plasma vet squad but you get the hood and less bodies and no scoring. Other disadvantages are you have to take someone else's ride and are 2 kp but its still a consideration.

I would have bailed on IG for your wolf list awhile ago if I didn't run Alrahem who is the awesome for objective and table corner missions. I also like Manticores for dealing with the BA Land Raider spam armies and hordes something your wolf list doesn't do that great against.

Avariel wrote:
I hate to say but if you want to be the most competitive you will retire Gimperial Guard and pick up Space Wolves, Grey Knights or Blood Angels. Their shooting anti tank better or at the same level but you lose incredibly awesome Manticores and the outflanking Alrahem in exchange for not failing in the assault phase and dying in the explosion of your vehicle.

I just wanted to say that power blobs are capable in close combat as long as you have enough bodies to hold onto the marines legs while the sarg stabs them in the eye with a power sword.

But yes, I see each codex being more and more effective against IG, we'll see what 6th edition brings soon enough

the reason alot of marine armies can out shoot IG is because they can put quality of fire onto targets more accurately.


Psyflemen spam lists will certaintly be viable as they fill a nich the GK list is lacking(long range anti-tank) and most GK lists that arn't shunt punch or Shadow Wing(3 Stormraven assault) will have a few Psyflemen.

I bring a fully kited executioner to the field that totally wreck havoc on MEQ and TEQ. After popping a transport, opponents usually dont march their marines forward and usually keep their guys back in cover or on objectives because they see the executioner waiting for them behind the gunline.

Although manticores are still the way to go, but most marine armies have problem dealing with AV14 at range. Their only hope is to get in close to melta or powerfist it. Good thing I run a executioner and 2 manticores, opponents really dont have any choice but to get close or deepstrike to take them out.

And no, most space marine armies cant outshoot IG in terms of alpha striking. Not even predator spam BA, baal predator cant be outfitted with long range weapons, and at 1850 they cant spam 6 razorback and still get 6 preds(3 baal), especially if they want still want mephiston or some other good HQs. For GK, like I said if they go 5-6 rifledreads, they will have to spam cheap henchman instead... and even with 6 dreads, they still cant outshoot IG in alpha striking.

Grundz
I haven't liked power blobs because of the dependence on cover which you might not have in your deployment zone. I ran hybrid blob/mech for awhile and absence of cover on alot of tourney boards and the torn decision to keep the ccs back for orders on blob or move up to melta really made me move to all Mech.

SonsofVulkan
Whats your 1850 and 2000 lists look like?

I used to run an executioner and 2 manticores before I put in Alrahem.

My problem with the executioner is its also situational. Its awesome vs marines when you explode a transport and they all bunched up but vs Orks, IG Mirrors, Dark Eldar and other stuff not so much.

My Nova Open list and reports from last year. Executioner was pretty good in 2 out of the 4 games.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/312003.page

SVDM last year executioner was good in my necron game and decent in my bug game but I played 3 IG mirrors where it was pretty lackluster. I don't think the executioner fits at 1850 anymore after the move to Alrahem and more troops.

Any ability to IGNORE 1/3rd of your opponents rolls is amazing.. Thats exactly what fortitude does

If you're playing a mech GK list thats like having a 5+ invul save ONTOP of a cover save vs glancing hits and a 3+ save vs glancing

Its probably one of the most powerful abilities in the entire codex if you build your army right

Like I said, it totally wrecks MEQs and TEQs, if you get pair with mirror IG matches for over 50% of your tournament matches its just bad luck. Its like a marine player who didnt expect necrons to show up and end up facing Dash with 3 Monoliths and didnt bring any or enough S10.

My 1850 list with executioner looks like this.
CCS w 4 melta and OoTF
x4 Vets w 3 melta, 1 AC crew, chimera (or you can substitute 1 vet squad for PBS or add one for your 2k list)
3x Vendetta
Executioner-Sponsoon plasma, lascan
2x manticores

I'm pretty sure you seem this list before... it just tears up marines and rhino/razorbacks easy. Even a simple Multi-laser on the chimeras can do harm to AV11. This list still deal with DE very easily with or without the executioner, DE paper airplanes just falls to simple S6. Now against Orks, their most competitive list is probably Battlewagon rush w Ghaz, KFF bigmek, with nobz and boyz. I mean against them, even running 2x Hydra flak aint gonna scratch the wagons... Executioner will tear ghaz and his nobz a new hole at distance if he dont have Waagh, and also good against nob bikers.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Like I said, it totally wrecks MEQs and TEQs, if you get pair with mirror IG matches for over 50% of your tournament matches its just bad luck. Its like a marine player who didnt expect necrons to show up and end up facing Dash with 3 Monoliths and didnt bring any or enough S10.

My 1850 list with executioner looks like this.
CCS w 4 melta and OoTF
x4 Vets w 3 melta, 1 AC crew, chimera
3x Vendetta
Executioner-Sponsoon plasma, lascan
2x manticores

I'm pretty sure you seem this list before... it just tears up marines and rhino/razorbacks easy. Even a simple Multi-laser on the chimeras can do harm to AV11.

Here's my issue with the executioner:

Your setup above costs 245 points.

Marines: unless you explode a transport, the template is 3 inches wide, meaning if the hole is over a model, you go 1.5 inches either way, and you can't get more than 1 marine. One. And with the way cover works nowadays, he probably has a 4+. So even in the best case where you hit 5 times, you get all 5 wounds, he's going to save 2.5 of those probably. And a situation which involves you hitting every time and him not having cover, and both sponsons being able to target are rare.

Lets say you explode his vehicle (not just wrecked where he could spread out) and he deploys in the crater. He has a 4+ cover save for the exploded area. Most tanks have 5 guys inside, and lets be generous and say you get 3 guys with the template now. You've got to hit (not scatter off), and then he still has a ...4+ cover save. You kill a couple marines, maybe the squad. Your tank cost 245 points.

Also, since you run more of a sit back and shoot (manticores, autocannon veteran squads), why would you want officer of the fleet? He would force your opponent to come on later, which usually means you have less time to kill him and he can nab objectives at the end.

SonsofVulkan wrote:

jy2 wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:
The problem is not Mech IG cant outshoot GK(even with fortitude), becuz they easily can... ....no codex right now can dish out the kind of long range fire power that IG can.

I beg to differ. Have you played against some of the good mech-MSU marine armies out there? Mech-BA, long fang-razorwolves and GK dread-spam can all outshoot a balanced IG at range.

When you say outshoot, so you mean target selection or the volume of high strength long range shots(over 24") dispense? Because to me it has to be both.

I mean both. Consider my 2K SW list:

3x Rune Priests - 2 Living Lightnings, 2 Jaws, 2 Hurricanes
2x Rifleman dreads
3 squads of Grey Hunters - Melta, standard, rhino
2x5 Grey Hunters - Flamer, Las/plas razorback
3x Land Speeder Typhoons (not a squad)
3x6 Long Fangs - 5x Missile launchers each

I've got 8 units with S8/9 guns that can all fire at 11 separate targets.

I've also got 4 units with S7 guns either twin-linked (dreads) or firing at BS5 unlimited range (LL RP's with choosers). Overall I can target 15 separate units with S7+ shooting.


My 2K Grey Knights army consists of:

Crowe
2x Psyfleman vendreads
Vindicare
3x Purifiers w/2 psycannons each in rhinos
2x Strike Squads w/1 psycannon each in psybolt razorbacks
3x Psyfleman dreads

I can target 6 different targets at long range but with very highly accurate shots. Vindicare will infiltrate and take out land raiders, leman russes and the like. Then I've got 5 units that can take down tanks though at mid-range.


BTW, I also used to run IG. Back then, my 2K IG list consisted of something like this:

CCS - 4x Meltas, OotF in chimera
Inquisitor - Tarot, 2x Mystics, 3x plasmavets (in vendetta or take 1 vet chimera)
1 unit of PBS in chimera
3x Meltavets - 2 w/Demolitions, 2 chimeras (1 or 2 demolitions in vendetta)
1 PCS - 4x Flamers in chimera (in vendetta)
2x Infantry squads w/autocannons
1x Special weapon squads w/flamers
3x Vendettas
2x Manticores
2x Hydras


I've played both against mechguards both with my Space Wolves and my Grey Knights and I can honestly say that if IG doesn't go first against these types of armies, they are screwed. If they go first, then they have a chance but it would be a tough fight for them.

SonsofVulkan
Thanks for posting your list. Dunno if I like that personally. I really like Alrahem for the outflanking scoring units and even before that instead of your 4th squad of vets I ran a platoon with the pcs having melta in a chimera and the infantry either being used as bubble wrap or going in Vendettas to outflank for objectives. PBS rounded it out to 2k.

Executioner just seems to cost too many points for how situational it is. I ended up playing targetawg and DashofPepper and the executioner wasn't very good at all. It was really good with the mystic combo and when a vehicle explodes. I actually was considering it again since I played at a local RTT and ran into plague marines and fnp ba.

targetawg
In Nova format where you have 6 turns flat and a 4+ turn 7. Officer of the fleet might be a consideration since almost everyone tends to reserve when IG gets first turn these days. Issue being that time constraints might not finish 6 or 7 turns.

jy2
I like your wolf list. What makes you put the riflemen in your wolf list? Brookie at Conflict also had riflemen in his wolf list Avariel prefers wolf scouts + wolfguard for her elites.

Wow your lists look so similar to Avariel's her Crowe list looks pretty similar to yours but she doesn't run the vindicare and instead has a 4th purifier squad.

How is the Vindicare btw? Does he just die really quick? I was discussing it with targetawg and Avariel we were thinking vindicare would need to borrow a rhino to stay alive but then he would lose yet a turn of shooting to get in said rhino and is not worth it costing 185.

I been having this discussion with Avariel and targetawg for awhile now with moving to another army but fact is I been playing IG for 2 years and feel comfortable with it and put a lot of work into it. Rushing another army for Nova and not being so familiar I dunno. Plan was to roll out another army for 2012 season. Wolves or GKs but play IG in the meantime.

Gonna have to try the WH Inquisitor w hood and 3 plasma warriors in a match vs GK and see how it goes.

Kirasu wrote:Any ability to IGNORE 1/3rd of your opponents rolls is amazing.. Thats exactly what fortitude does

Let's also not forget glances (the king of 5th edition competitions). Ignoring 2/3 of the results that most people (myself included) swear by is... nightmarish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

targetawg wrote:Also, since you run more of a sit back and shoot (manticores, autocannon veteran squads), why would you want officer of the fleet? He would force your opponent to come on later, which usually means you have less time to kill him and he can nab objectives at the end.

OotF is actually very important for a sitback IG army because of the forced reroll of outflanking. Also, it causes them to come in piecemeal even more so on average.

The executioner is just 1 option, alot of people runs 2 Hydror go for 3 manticore instead. Either way its better than running a 400+ pt situational outflanking units in reserve that doesn't provide enough long range fire power. Not to mention you used up 30 PT for a astropath just for that single unit.

somerandomdude
fortitude is just so hard to deal with if you have no psyker defense it seems you just lose.

That might be worthy of consideration the officer of the fleet since I been noticing everyone reserves if IG gets first turn.

SonsofVulkan
I been testing Hydra(s) and 2 Manticores. Hydras seem alright but I'm not a fan of squadrons at all. Haven't tried triple Manticore. Had the executioner in the 3rd heavy slot till it got fired and the Daemon inquisitor with it.

Alrahem plays to objective and table corner missions and is not super killy although he does have bring it down and meltas along with first rank second rank and 2 infantry squads with mostly las guns to order it to. Objectives with 5 of them 1 in each corner and 1 in the middle and table corner missions either putting scoring units on the objectives or 400 pts in a table corner. Alrahem won me games 3-4 at Colonial getting me the objectives.

Astropath is quite good if you need to all reserve vs a shooty army and to get your Vendettas on the right sides not just for Alrahem.

@jy2, if you read my other post, I've mention that SW is probably the only other army that can match IG's alpha strike fire power.

Like I said, neither GK nor BA can outshoot IG at "LONG" range. 5 rifledreads at BS4 is good, but so is 3 vendettas with 3 TL lascan and 3 manticores who can spit out on average 2 S10 large blasts each and mantis are not affected by night fights. Not to mention 4-5 vet squads has a AC at BS4. Like seriously, if GK doesnt go first, they are pretty screwed. And alot of time, it depends on terrains and how we deploy, sometimes neither of us will have good LOS to shoot at more than 1-2 targets(after reserving vendettas). But that doesnt affect 3 manticores... And so far I was only talking about 1850 IG...

@targetawg, if a squad of 5 assault marines or GK got out of a exploded or wreck rhino, and they jump into cover to avoid executioners than that is fine... who wouldnt? Wasnt that one of the strategies of IG gunlines? To keep marines with meltas and powerfists away from your chimeras or your fragile guardsman? And if a unit got out of a wrecked vehicle, chances are they're within 1" of each other and 2-3 can be hit by a small blast. Yes if the vehicle has exploded, then they can spread out more than 1" to avoid multiple hits.

And I didnt bring a executioner just so it can kill transports and marine squads. Its there to also take on deathstars, MC, and other expensive TEQ. Mephiston flying towards you, no prob... Dreadknights(only 5+ invul? lol), no prob... and etc etc. Now by no means a executioner is a cure for everything, like every single piece of machinery in a mech IG list, it is there to support one another.

And OoTF is there for the meta... its good against outflankers and when your opponent decides to reserve everything. If I'm going to a major GT with 50+ players, who knows what kind of crazy and weird lists(3 deep striking monoliths?) you will face.

SonsofVulkan
GK can actually out shoot IG if they make it to mid range which they do in pitched battle fairly easily. 5 psyriflemen + 6 units with psycannons in rhinos is gonna hurt if they get first shot and well if you reserved they moved to the middle and smoked and unless you get some lucky destroyed and explosions on your first shots they just fortitude on their turn and start blasting you.

Danny Internets told me that the Witch Hunter hood is a requirement for IG versus those psyriflemen lists.

Dunno about officer of the fleet. Games for me have a bad habit of ending on turn 5 cause I tend to roll low if I'm rolling. This leaves things open for the opponent to come on last turn with a unit and nab an objective when I can't do anything about it. Now in a Nova format 6 turns 4+ turn 7 ok maybe officer is worth it.

if the GK player is running a Grandmaster then your officer of the fleet is pretty much nerfed. Psychic Communion will just negate the Officer's interference.