Fixes to Kroot

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**SabrX**

-Allow Shaper to grant either re-roll moral tests or stubborn LD
-Give all Kroot Stealth and Scout.

If these changes are implemented in the next codex, Kroot Horde would be viable and perhaps compete against Green Tide, Endless Swarm, and Foot-IG hordes. Kroot horde would be unique, flavorful, and totally dominate Cities of Death!

**darkcloud92**

but theyd still only have 6 up saves, and they sharper takes away from infiltrate and costs a ridiculous amount.
Id say they just need better CC effectiveness for being so fragile...or give them rapid fire

then it wouldnt matter that they suck at shooting. b/c right now they are less effective at shooting then FW and w/out hounds just as effective at CC. the only thing they have got goin for them is how cheap they are

**Your Friend Doctor Robert**

For a points boost, Kroot Shaper can give a +1 to either Strength, Toughness, or Initiative(Pick one) Does not stack with multiple Shapers.

**SabrX**

darkcloud92 wrote:but theyd still only have 6 up saves, and they sharper takes away from infiltrate and costs a ridiculous amount.
Id say they just need better CC effectiveness for being so fragile...or give them rapid fire then it wouldnt matter that they suck at shooting. b/c right now they are less effective at shooting then FW and w/out hounds just as effective at CC. the only thing they have got goin for them is how cheap they are

They are horde. Being spammed en-masse makes up for their lack of armor saves. Further more if the board has a lot of forests, and 50% of them are inside, then the entire squad gets 3+ cover save. Imagine 100 models with cover saves (assuming there's enough forests to fit 50 Kroots).

They already have 24" Str4 AP6 rapid fire. That's pretty good against other T3 armies and MEQ. If Tau goes first, they could infiltrate 18" away during deployment, move 6" during movement, and rapid fire. Imagine 200 AP6 Bolters on turn 1. Furthermore, 100 Kroots is 700 points. The remaining points can be spent on Fire Knife Suits and Railguns to pop transports. Check out this list:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365294.page

As for assault, I do agree. I wish they had furious charge. At least their Kroot Hounds are I5, making it easier to flee combat.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:For a points boost, Kroot Shaper can give a +1 to either Strength, Toughness, or Initiative(Pick one) Does not stack with multiple Shapers.

Not bad. Almost like ymgarl genestealers. How about +1 BS, WS, or A as well?

**darkcloud92**

SabrX wrote:
darkcloud92 wrote:but theyd still only have 6 up saves, and they sharper takes away from infiltrate and costs a ridiculous amount.
Id say they just need better CC effectiveness for being so fragile...or give them rapid fire then it wouldnt matter that they suck at shooting. b/c right now they are less effective at shooting then FW and w/out hounds just as effective at CC. the only thing they have got goin for them is how cheap they are

They are horde. Being spammed en-masse makes up for their lack of armor saves. Further more if the board has a lot of forests, and 50% of them are inside, then the entire squad gets 3+ cover save. Imagine 100 models with cover saves (assuming there's enough forests to fit 50 Kroots).

They already have 24" Str4 AP6 rapid fire. That's pretty good against other T3 armies and MEQ. If Tau goes first, they could infiltrate 18" away during deployment, move 6" during movement, and rapid fire. Imagine 200 AP6 Bolters on turn 1. Furthermore, 100 Kroots is 700 points. The remaining points can be spent on Fire Knife Suits and Railguns to pop transports. Check out this list:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365294.page

As for assault, I do agree. I wish they had furious charge. At least their Kroot Hounds are I5, making it easier to flee combat.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:For a points boost, Kroot Shaper can give a +1 to either Strength, Toughness, or Initiative(Pick one) Does not stack with multiple Shapers.

Not bad. Almost like ymgarl genestealers. How about +1 BS, WS, or A as well?

I realize that im just saying even with that upgrade I still feel like the sharper is not worth the point costs. But oh I had no idea they had rapid fire at 24 inches. That is pretty sweet, id say the only thing the kroot are missing are that better initiative for hounds then. But as far as using their forest bonus it is extremely situational, You could end up on a board with above 50% forest...or no forest what so ever. So that bonus the kroot get is situational. What about if instead of making it forests the kroot instead just got the bonus of "being masters at cover" So that when behind cover they could go to ground and make any cover save a 3 plus?

**Oaka**

SabrX wrote:If Tau goes first, they could infiltrate 18" away during deployment, move 6" during movement, and rapid fire. Imagine 200 AP6 Bolters on turn 1. Furthermore, 100 Kroots

I had noticed you mention this when you first put up your 100-model Kroot army, and was surprised that no one mentioned anything. Infiltrators have to be placed more than 18" away from the enemy, so it is impossible to double-tap with your rapid-fire weapons on the first turn.

I believe that if they allowed units with krootox to be able to infiltrate, it would upgrade their effectiveness.

**Jone96**

If this is your solution to make kroots better, this would increase their points like 2-4 points. Otherwise good but they really should not have stealth. Its just too good to have horde of 30 kroots in cover, firing S4 Ap6 Range24'' rapid fire guns, or sitting in objectives.

**SabrX**

Oaka wrote:
SabrX wrote:If Tau goes first, they could infiltrate 18" away during deployment, move 6" during movement, and rapid fire. Imagine 200 AP6 Bolters on turn 1. Furthermore, 100 Kroots

I had noticed you mention this when you first put up your 100-model Kroot army, and was surprised that no one mentioned anything. Infiltrators have to be placed more than 18" away from the enemy, so it is impossible to double-tap with your rapid-fire weapons on the first turn.

I believe that if they allowed units with krootox to be able to infiltrate, it would upgrade their effectiveness.

Oh wow, good catch on the "more than." This reinforces why I want Kroots to have scouts.

Jone96 wrote:If this is your solution to make kroots better, this would increase their points like 2-4 points. Otherwise good but they really should not have stealth. Its just too good to have horde of 30 kroots in cover, firing S4 Ap6 Range24'' rapid fire guns, or sitting in objectives.

I was referring to the 40k rule book stealth, not stealth field generator. Current Kroots only get increase cover save in forests. Given the fluff of Kroot, they should be able to adapt and conceal themselves in any environment whether its dessert, urban, or arctic.

I doubt a model without armor save and BS3 will cost 9-11 points. 7 Points is just about right.

**winnertakesall**

Give the shaper the ability to take something like a PF, or at least a PW. Make the 6+ a 6++ and issue solved.

**Cottonjaw**

Look at the Ork Boy. Then look at a Kroot Carnivore. Looks at the points costs.

Good things or coming for the Kroot. Or they'll be like 4 points each hahahaha.

**Daemonhound63**

Kroot Issues currently that I see

In CC they have no armour save and are easily wounded making their morale check low or with the only hope of rolling snakeeyes

Current special rules are to focused to much on a certain type cover

Lack a model in the unit to dish out damage

Carnivore Squad
General Kroot Special Rules:Infiltrate(Only Kroot,Hounds,Shaper), Stealth, Move Through Cover

Kroot Shaper - The shaper needs to buffer the squad. Also needs to be able to get a poisoned war staff (3+/2+).
Special Rules - Stubborn, Kroot Totem, and General Kroot

Kroot Totem: Upgrade to one of the following

Scout

Equip unit with frag and Krak grenades

Fleet

Krootox - Kroot Gun needs changed to a new action type, such as (assault 2 24") and (Heavy 2 48")

Hounds
Hounds - Detachment: Count as a separate unit from the standard carnivore squad, but does not count against the FoC. Also they must start within 12" of the kroot carnivore squad owners in the same FoC slot. Change Hounds to beasts and change Squad size to 6-12
Unleash the Hounds:

With in 12" of Carnivore Squad:They benefit from stubborn and the owners shapers totem

Outside 12" of Carnivore Squad: Count as having rage and do not gain totems or stubborn

Unique
Kroot Shaman: Leadership 9
Special Rules - Stubborn, General Kroot, Independent, Psyker, Kindred Bond
Kindred Bond: Gives unit preferred enemy
WarGear: Witchblade, Pistol
Purchasable Powers:

FnP for attached unit

Assault move 12"

Furious Charge

**darkcloud92**

Daemonhound63 wrote:Kroot Issues currently that I see

In CC they have no armour save and are easily wounded making their morale check low or with the only hope of rolling snakeeyes
Current special rules are to focused to much on a certain type cover
Lack a model in the unit to dish out damage

Carnivore Squad
General Kroot Special Rules:Infiltrate(Only Kroot,Hounds,Shaper), Stealth, Move Through Cover

Kroot Shaper - The shaper needs to buffer the squad. Also needs to be able to get a poisoned war staff (3+/2+).
Special Rules - Stubborn, Kroot Totem, and General Kroot

Kroot Totem: Upgrade to one of the following

Scout
Equip unit with frag and Krak grenades
Fleet

Krootox - Kroot Gun needs changed to a new action type, such as (assault 2 24") and (Heavy 2 48")

Hounds
Hounds - Detachment: Count as a separate unit from the standard carnivore squad, but does not count against the FoC. Also they must start within 12" of the kroot carnivore squad owners in the same FoC slot. Change Hounds to beasts and change Squad size to 6-12
Unleash the Hounds:
With in 12" of Carnivore Squad:They benefit from stubborn and the owners shapers totem
Outside 12" of Carnivore Squad: Count as having rage and do not gain totems or stubborn

Unique
Kroot Shaman: Leadership 9
Special Rules - Stubborn, General Kroot, Independent, Psyker, Kindred Bond
Kindred Bond: Gives unit preferred enemy
WarGear: Witchblade, Pistol
Purchasable Powers:
FnP for attached unit
Assault move 12"
Furious Charge

ya i could see this as a viable solution. Would you say the points cost would change or stay the same?

**Maniac_nmt**

I think the +1 init and removing some of the forest hinderance would go miles towards making them very viable.

A better leadership of some kind is just icing.

The other idea would be allow some squad upgrades in the form of the krootdex (sniper rifles, poisoned attacks, stat buffs, looted gear....) would all be nice.

I think the Kroot should stay a 6+ (6+ invul would be fine, but keept it a 6+) save. They should come in droves and be able to be killed in droves. The operative things being you can take a lot of moderately decent models at a cheap price.

**Daemonhound63**

darkcloud92 wrote:ya i could see this as a viable solution. Would you say the points cost would change or stay the same?

I dont really like putting point values on models because it can be very debatable and people can get irate about a simple suggestion, but.......

Possibly a one point drop on both the hounds and standard kroot.

If they drop the Shaper to 2 wounds I think around 20-25 points is fair. He does not need 3 wounds as an upgrade character he needs benefits to his squad.

Krootox is a hard one for me to value, but around 30 is fair as long as they make it harder on a carnivore squad, such as no infiltrate and possibly no sweeping advance if in the unit.

Shaman at least around 70-85 because he is pretty much a xeno variant chaplin

**Melissia**

Try starting with that old Kroot Mercs codex and move from there?

**Hückleberry**

Melissia wrote:Try starting with that old Kroot Mercs codex and move from there?

This. Kroot Merc armies were awesome. The first army that could pull off first turn assaults with the use of totems.

**Daemonhound63**

*UPDATED*

Kroot Issues currently that I see

In CC they have no armour save and are easily wounded making their morale check low or with the only hope of rolling snakeeyes
Current special rules are to focused to much on a certain type cover
Lack a model in the unit to dish out damage

Carnivore Squad
General Kroot Special Rules:Infiltrate(Only Kroot,Hounds,Shaper), Stealth, Move Through Cover

Kroot Shaper - The shaper needs to buffer the squad. Also needs to be able to get a poisoned war staff (3+/2+).
Special Rules - Stubborn, Kroot Totem, and General Kroot

Kroot Totem: Upgrade to one of the following

Scout
Equip unit with frag and Krak grenades
Fleet

Krootox - Kroot Gun needs changed to a new action type, such as (assault 2 24") and (Heavy 2 48")
Negatives - cannot infiltrate or sweeping advance

Kroot
Wargear:(Options for ranged or CC kroot )
Ranged: Kroot Rifle - Upgrade a few kroot to Hunting Rifle @ cost
Close Combata few kroot Trade Kroot Rifle for Poison blade and Pistol

Hounds
Hounds - Detachment: Count as a separate unit from the standard carnivore squad, but does not count against the FoC. Also they must start within 12" of the kroot carnivore squad owners in the same FoC slot. Change Hounds to beasts and change Squad size to 6-12
Unleash the Hounds:
With in 12" of Carnivore Squad:They benefit from stubborn and the owners shapers totem
Outside 12" of Carnivore Squad: Count as having rage and do not gain totems or stubborn

Unique Upgrade
Kroot Shaman: Leadership 9
Special Rules - Stubborn, General Kroot, Independent, Psyker, Kindred Bond
Kindred Bond: Gives unit preferred enemy
WarGear: Witchblade, Pistol, Talisman(4 Invulnerable)
Purchasable Powers:
FnP for attached unit
Assault move 12"
Furious Charge

*UPDATED*

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Try starting with that old Kroot Mercs codex and move from there?

Kroot Mercs are awesome and it does carry tons of ideas for the kroot.

The imperium wargear\weaponry makes them not as unique to Tau and makes them appear as scrap scavenger like orks. I think the use of poison weapons and other things that may be more kroot cultured would be awesome.

**Melissia**

So instead of Imperial weaponry you want them to basically use Dark Eldar stuff?

**Footsloggin**

Melissia wrote:So instead of Imperial weaponry you want them to basically use Dark Eldar stuff?

Just because it is poisoned does not make a weapon Dark Eldar. With that kind of mentality, all Tyranids with Toxin Sacs would be Dark Eldar, as are Nurgle units in the C: Chaos Daemons. And Kroot culture based weaponry may be in the Kroot Merc codex... Though I've never even SEEN that at my LFGS.

Regardless, poisoned weapony WOULD work with Kroot. I've always thought of Kroot to have primitive yet potent weaponry (I'm not sure at all, while my friend plays tau, I don't read his codex). Poison COULD fit the fluff given that the Tau are constantly assailed by Tyranids and the Kroot Auxilaries could be using potent toxins to attempt to bring down larger Tyranid organisms. Then again, I don't play or like Tau all that much, so take this as you will.

**Melissia**

By that reasoning, then it is logical for them to use shootas too, because they've eaten some Orks.

Basically you'd have to tie the equipment in to whatever genetics they're linked to, and adjust the points costs accordingly.

If they have Orkoid genetics, give htem +1T and shootas.

If they have Tyranid genetics, give them +1I and poisoned weapons.

If they have Eldar genetics, give them Fleet and the basic eldar shuriken rifle.

If they have human genetics... give them shotguns and increased BS? I dunno.

**darkcloud92**

Melissia wrote:By that reasoning, then it is logical for them to use shootas too, because they've eaten some Orks.

Basically you'd have to tie the equipment in to whatever genetics they're linked to, and adjust the points costs accordingly.

If they have Orkoid genetics, give htem +1T and shootas.

If they have Tyranid genetics, give them +1I and poisoned weapons.

If they have Eldar genetics, give them Fleet and the basic eldar shuriken rifle.

If they have human genetics... give them shotguns and increased BS? I dunno.

I do not think he meant that the kroot deserve tyranid weaponry or deserve poison b/c they have killed nids.
Im pretty sure he was just saying that the kroot seem like the type of race to use poison weaponry, and I would have to agree with that.
Now I do not agree with your proposed idea to just give them whatever equipment they deserve based on what genes they have. However, I do think it would be cool to give them their carnivore ability for on the battle field. Like say they have a shaman, so they gain the ability to eat their dead opponents and gain some kind of plus. Such as eat this creature than they gain this "..." But no equipment types or anything that great, just like plus 1 leadership or something

**Melissia**

Why not? The Kroot are mercenaries after all, spread throughout the galaxy in a hunt for more genetic material. That includes being paid in weapons.

**darkcloud92**

Melissia wrote:Why not? The Kroot are mercenaries after all, spread throughout the galaxy in a hunt for more genetic material. That includes being paid in weapons.

I understand that, Im just saying it is not a viable option. It would be confusing and could make them over powered. An we are not concerned with simply mercenary kroot, we are concerned with Tau kroot, if that makes any sense. This is not about one unit of kroot the IG or Eldar may have hired, this is about the standard for the kroot employed by the Tau. It can not just reflect one or two possible companies, but the race as employed by the Tau as a whole

Your idea could be viable for the merc kroot dex however, but not the Tau dex

**Daemonhound63**

my focus is on Kroot who are allianced with the TAU as auxillaries. Kroot Mercs are a totally different type of kroot. The Kroot for Tau need to maintain the culture as when they joined the Tau. They are very tribal and ritualistic. They are part of the Tau empire and imo the Tau would probably take offense if the Kroot used weapons other than Tau gifted or kroot specific since they have been integrated into the the Tau empire.

**Melissia**

Daemonhound63 wrote:my focus is on Kroot who are allianced with the TAU as auxillaries. Kroot Mercs are a totally different type of kroot.

Not really, the Kroot actually value the mercenaries a lot because they add genetic diversity to the race.

**Daemonhound63**

Melissia wrote:
Daemonhound63 wrote:my focus is on Kroot who are allianced with the TAU as auxillaries. Kroot Mercs are a totally different type of kroot.
Not really, the Kroot actually value the mercenaries a lot because they add genetic diversity to the race.

So their not different just genetically diverse. Sorry for calling it a potato instead of a potato. I understand a race as a whole the kroot mercs are more genetically enhanced from their exposure to other races through warp travel, but the kroot under the Tau Codex are kroot from their home world Pech and are integrated into the Tau empire. Mercenaries on the other hand are not used with Tau empire and also they I kept hidden from the Tau as to not cause any conflict or blood feud. So the kroot are genetically diverse which makes them totally different in a sense that they do not serve with the Tau empire, exposed to more races for consumption, and also do not have the Tau armory backing them.

If you want a fluff reference read pg17 paragraph 4 of Tau Codex which explains mercenaries and how they hidden and never engage Tau.

**SabrX**

I wonder what happens when Kroot working for Tau run into Kroot merc on the battlefield.

The old human auxiliaries had a special rule where enemy imperial IG have preferred enemy against Gue'la (human auxiliaries). Not that it would matter since Kroot merc isn't sanction except in apoc and other expansion games. It still would make an interesting story. Would the Kroot eat their own kind or call a truce and let their employers duke it out?

**Your Friend Doctor Robert**

SabrX wrote:
Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:For a points boost, Kroot Shaper can give a +1 to either Strength, Toughness, or Initiative(Pick one) Does not stack with multiple Shapers.

Not bad. Almost like ymgarl genestealers. How about +1 BS, WS, or A as well?

No. The idea here was that he's guided them to become physically better, but a Shaper can't really improve on the training they already have.