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Which is best against Teqs?
Blinding Spear
Helios
Fireknife

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Made in ca
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







Which of these configs is the best vs. Teqs?

   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot




Karthu'ul, the Heart of the Universe

What is a Blinding Spear?

Helios is better than Fireknife against regular TEQ's, but Bladestorm is better than both if they have SS's.

There are some who walk until their legs fail them and they fall to the ground. I find that respectable.
Then there are those who drag themselves further. I find that admirable.  
   
Made in ca
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







Nerivant wrote:What is a Blinding Spear?

Helios is better than Fireknife against regular TEQ's, but Bladestorm is better than both if they have SS's.


Blinding Spear=plasma+BC

   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Perhaps explaining the configurations would be helpful. Because I have no idea what "Blinding Spear" and "Helios" are.

"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." - Lawrence Walsh, Chinatown

"Yeah, f*ck you too!" - R.J. MacReady, The Thing 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot




Karthu'ul, the Heart of the Universe

im2randomghgh wrote:
Nerivant wrote:What is a Blinding Spear?

Helios is better than Fireknife against regular TEQ's, but Bladestorm is better than both if they have SS's.


Blinding Spear=plasma+BC


Which is a Bladestorm.

See my post.

There are some who walk until their legs fail them and they fall to the ground. I find that respectable.
Then there are those who drag themselves further. I find that admirable.  
   
Made in ca
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







odorofdeath wrote:Perhaps explaining the configurations would be helpful. Because I have no idea what "Blinding Spear" and "Helios" are.


Fire Knife=Plasma+Missile Pod

Blinding Spear=Plasma+BC

Helios= Plasma+FB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Nerivant, BS and BS are the same? Didn't know the name changed...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/15 23:43:00


   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Fireknife!

It's the mighty putty of Tau builds!

"AM are bunch of half human-half robot monkeys who keep tech working by punching it with a wrench And their tech is so sophisticated that you could never get it wrapped it out" thing a LITTLE to seriously. It also goes "Tau tech is so awesome I wish I was Tau and not some stupid Human" thing.

-Brother Coa Sig'd For the Greater Good 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot




Karthu'ul, the Heart of the Universe

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Fireknife!

It's the mighty putty of Tau builds!


Except... it's not. The Helios is the most effective of the three against regular TEQ's.

There are some who walk until their legs fail them and they fall to the ground. I find that respectable.
Then there are those who drag themselves further. I find that admirable.  
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




England, UK

I have absolutely no idea what any of those configs mean (and neither does anyone who doesn't play Tau I'd assume). Perhaps putting what the actual weapons are would help?

L. Wrex

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<Lycaeus Wrex> rolls 7 dice, 4+ to hit, Strength 6 against Armour 12...
* 0 out of 7 dice hit (4+) = (1,1,1,1,1,1,1) 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot




Karthu'ul, the Heart of the Universe

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I have absolutely no idea what any of those configs mean (and neither does anyone who doesn't play Tau I'd assume). Perhaps putting what the actual weapons are would help?

L. Wrex


He did, but not in the OP.

Fire Knife = Plasma Rifle and Missile Pod

Bladestorm (Blinding Spear) = Plasma Rifle and Burst Cannon

Helios = Plasma Rifle and Fusion Blaster

There are some who walk until their legs fail them and they fall to the ground. I find that respectable.
Then there are those who drag themselves further. I find that admirable.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think this is the thread you're looking for:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360480.page

Bladestorm is pretty solid all around. I'm going to be running it as one of my stock builds I think.
   
Made in ca
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







Based on that data I will probably build a list around Blinding spear squad + a deathrain (flamer) squad.

   
Made in au
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot






Melbourne

The reason why the Fireknife and Deathain compositions are so popular is because they allow your suits to operate 40" away from your opponent, leaving your suits well out of assault range but still able to contribute.
The Helios might be better against MEQ on paper, but they have to be within 18" to work which is exactly where Tau don't want their expensive, fragile suits to be.

I would go for a combination of Fireknife and Deathrain if you want a more balanced force.

You brighten my life like a polystyrene hat, but it melts in the sun like a life without love, and I've waited for you so I'll keep holding on without you.

"There's nothing cooler than being proud of the things that you love" - Sean Plott

Gold League - Terran 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

I don't use deathrains; I use 2x Fireknife squads and 1x Bladestorm squad, each with one member upgraded to a team leader with TArray and making the MT hard-wired.

If you're good with distances, you can keep the bladestorms out of combat quite easily, and they put out a good amount of dice when they fire; you can also use them to lure enemies into firing lanes where they're flanked by Fireknives, but that doesn't happen often.

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Nerivant wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Fireknife!

It's the mighty putty of Tau builds!


Except... it's not. The Helios is the most effective of the three against regular TEQ's.


Yeah for one round of glorious shooting.. Two if your enemy plays his movements poorly.

Me, I'd take the Plasma/MP combo anyday. You have a unit that is capable of forcing saves every turn and popping transports with decent odds. If anything gets too close for comfort, throw plasma at it from a safe range and kite. If you get deepstruck, move your boys into double tap range and go from there.

It's all preferance though and certainly depends on the list a person is building more than anything.

"AM are bunch of half human-half robot monkeys who keep tech working by punching it with a wrench And their tech is so sophisticated that you could never get it wrapped it out" thing a LITTLE to seriously. It also goes "Tau tech is so awesome I wish I was Tau and not some stupid Human" thing.

-Brother Coa Sig'd For the Greater Good 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

Did a little calculation (it's 4:40am here, so it may (will probably) be wrong):

Fusion Blaster at BS3 vs Terminator with SS (how often will you find terminators without an SS?):
0.5 hits>0.4165 wounds>0.1386945 of which are unsaved.

Missile Pod at BS3 vs Terminator with SS:
1 hit>0.833 wounds>0.139111 of which are unsaved.

The missile pod from the fireknife only just wins out here, but the margin is veeeery slight.

If you want to fire at terminators without storm shields, then the helios wins with 0.2778055 unsaved wounds from the FB to the fireknife's 0.139111 from the MP, which is just over half as effective.

However, bear in mind that terminators without storm shields will probably have a reason for it, and the missile pod's range can help stay away from that reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/16 03:49:00


Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I personally prefer the sunfire config myself (Team Leader or HQ w/ MP, FB, & PR). Pick whatever pair of weapons is the most appropriate for that particular time in the game. sometimes, you'll just need to advance and blast a unit of Termies and with some marker light support there is nothing like hitting a squad of termies with 6 plasma shots and 3 fusion shots. At the begining and end of the game, you'll get use out of the Missile Pod as well.

I'm working on the numbers to see if I should just flat out replace the Fusion with a Burst Cannon, and in general the answer seems to be yes, but I'm going to work on it some more.
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight




Lafayette, IN

Personally I get annoyed by the terms that tau use to describe their builds, like some secret advanced tau tactical lingo. At least when a marine player says dakka pred, you can figure out what he means by that. I find that having cool names for your builds just allows people to fanboy easier on something that sounds cool.

That being said, I personally like the "fireknife" because it gives you potency across range bands. It punishes players from getting too near, while still doing damage at long range. Its AP value and anti vehicle value is still decent. Which is something other builds give up (fusion/plasma doesn't, but it gives up range and volume).

 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

What is a dakka pred? I've never heard the term before. Presumably a predator with dakka?

Personally I get annoyed by people who don't like players to get a bit of fun and flavour out of playing a minority army.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One





Except that 'A Predator with maximum dakka" describes a Dakka Pred perfectly. Fireknife doesn't tell you anything about the Crisis suit build. Is it a melee oriented unit? Is it a flamer unit? Wait, it's a plasma and missile pod unit?! What part of "fire" or "knife" says "plasma and missiles" to you?
   
Made in fi
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





where are you from? Finland? Country between sweden and Russia? Never heard.

I would go for deathrains.
But TBH I have no idea what TEQ means...

-unforgiven-

Jone96 wrote:
...I tought that unforgiven was going to floorball practices (He wasnt and yes, he really plays floorball)...

Omegus wrote:As for the Dark Angels, they are a codex chapter with some dresses and emo angst tacked on.
 
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight




Lafayette, IN

the unforgiven wrote:I would go for deathrains.
But TBH I have no idea what TEQ means...

-unforgiven-


TEQ means terminator equivalent. So firing at 2+ armor saves.

 
   
Made in fi
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





where are you from? Finland? Country between sweden and Russia? Never heard.

notabot187 wrote:
the unforgiven wrote:I would go for deathrains.
But TBH I have no idea what TEQ means...

-unforgiven-


TEQ means terminator equivalent. So firing at 2+ armor saves.

Oh, okay then fireknifes it is.

Jone96 wrote:
...I tought that unforgiven was going to floorball practices (He wasnt and yes, he really plays floorball)...

Omegus wrote:As for the Dark Angels, they are a codex chapter with some dresses and emo angst tacked on.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

Except that 'A Predator with maximum dakka" describes a Dakka Pred perfectly.


No it doesn't, I still don't know what it means.

I know Destructor is AC/HB and Annihilator is TLLC/LC but that's the limit of my knowledge on predator terms; 'Dakka Pred' means nothing to me; if I didn't know any better i'd say it was a Predator variant thought up in Proposed Rules that the website adopted.

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. Louis, Missouri

Darkjediben wrote:Except that 'A Predator with maximum dakka" describes a Dakka Pred perfectly. Fireknife doesn't tell you anything about the Crisis suit build. Is it a melee oriented unit? Is it a flamer unit? Wait, it's a plasma and missile pod unit?! What part of "fire" or "knife" says "plasma and missiles" to you?


How is Dakka Pred any different that Fireknife? The term "Dakka Pred" doesn't define any of the weapons that goes on said Predator. I don't play SM, nor do I know anyone that has used the term "Dakka Pred" when they field their different configurations.

And if you're drinkin' well, you know that you're my friend and I say "I think I'll have myself a beer"
DS:80+SG-M-B--IPw40k09-D++A+/mWD-R++T(Ot)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I love how people use terms and abbreviations that no one knows without explaining what they are and then half the posts are from people who don't know what the OP is talking about.

Fun times had by all.

I wouldn't focus so much on their usefulness against TEQs (terminator equivalents [see what I did there?]). There are only going to be so many TEQs the opponent can field in any given list. To that effect, I prefer the fireknife (plasma rifle + missile pod + multi-tracker). It can handle TEQs, MCs, light transports and even hordes (because of the sheer number of shots the model can produce at any range). Versatility, when available without drawback, is good and we tau players should be happy that versatility readily presents itself in the form of the fireknife crisis suit.

Of course I only recommend running such suits in the HQ slot so you can them targeting arrays, thus making them BS4.

Hope that helps,

Knute


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS

"Dakka" anything typically refers to a model that produces lots of mid-strength shots. So a dakka pred is one with the autocannon and heavy bolter side sponsons. A dakka russ is typically the annihilator (or whatever one that has an autocannon). However, dreadnoughts with two TL autocannons are conspicuously called "rifleman" dreads, not "dakka" preds (which generally refers to dreads with assault cannons).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/16 20:08:12


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Avatar 720 wrote:Did a little calculation (it's 4:40am here, so it may (will probably) be wrong):

Fusion Blaster at BS3 vs Terminator with SS (how often will you find terminators without an SS?):
0.5 hits>0.4165 wounds>0.1386945 of which are unsaved.

Missile Pod at BS3 vs Terminator with SS:
1 hit>0.833 wounds>0.139111 of which are unsaved.

The missile pod from the fireknife only just wins out here, but the margin is veeeery slight.

If you want to fire at terminators without storm shields, then the helios wins with 0.2778055 unsaved wounds from the FB to the fireknife's 0.139111 from the MP, which is just over half as effective.

However, bear in mind that terminators without storm shields will probably have a reason for it, and the missile pod's range can help stay away from that reason.


Jumping in and pointing this out!

Not to jab avatar, but this is the wrong way to find the average and I see it done a lot. The Missile Pods will be hitting about 5:1 over Fusion almost every game due to range.

When doing the math factor in 1 hit vs 5 hits.

This is where the missile pod produces the actual results.

Edit: You can do a 1 for 1, but its like saying a single shot from this machine gun vs a single shot from this shotgun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/17 15:16:32


"AM are bunch of half human-half robot monkeys who keep tech working by punching it with a wrench And their tech is so sophisticated that you could never get it wrapped it out" thing a LITTLE to seriously. It also goes "Tau tech is so awesome I wish I was Tau and not some stupid Human" thing.

-Brother Coa Sig'd For the Greater Good 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




And thats why I like the Sunfire (Plasma, Missile Pod, Fusion, HW Multi Track) so much. Fireknife config for early game, Helios config for mid game, and then back to fireknife at the end of the game.
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Concord CA

It is pretty clear that if you want to get the most out of your suit load out against teq's that you should go with PR, BC, MT then perhaps a TA on the leader. In fact I would say it's your best bet against MEQs as well, much much better than the Fire Knife. With the PR BC your making them take more saves, better chance they are gonna miss one of those 2 or 3 up saves. You may be worried about dying, but fear not. Simply equip a shas'el with 2 shield drones then have him join the unit, increasing their fire power and survivability. Plus your hopping to pretty much completely obliterate whatever your shooting at, and your still at a pretty good distance from the unit if your JSJ the right way. MP are the worst at killing everything but Transports. Their only benefit is the distance you get. But you pay for that range by having most of your shots just bounce off of meqs. Either way I usually go with two teams of PR BC MT and a leader with a TA, than one team that is death rain to deal with transports

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/17 18:53:24


I will...never be a memory 
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight




Lafayette, IN

The problem with any configuration including burst cannons is that burst cannons suck, S5 shooting isn't something you should ever pay for in an army that gets it pretty much everywhere (and honestly S5 sucks in pretty much any list, S6 is where you start getting versatile firepower). Its like a marine actually paying for a storm bolter, its nice when its free, but you never pay for it. What is the point of taking this elite platform with all sorts of powerful and useful weapon options that none of your guys can take, if you are just going to give them a weapon that is no better than a basic firewarrior weapon?

The mathhammer might work out that a particular configuration including BCs might be better against infantry of whatever type, but the heavy bolter with half range and worse AP just isn't as useful or versatile as other options.

As for the missiles being worse against every thing other than transports issue, giving up 1 shot vs the BC is worth it for the range alone, the fact that it murders light armor is gravy (this is 4th ed, and the tau quality of anti tank is made up for it in lack of platforms, not using the elite slot to pull anti transport duty IMHO is wasteful of FOC slots). Do I wish it had better ap? Sure, but AP 4 is quite solid compared to the AP5 everywhere else in the tau list.

I'll defend even flamer/fusion gun suicide units over any build that uses burst cannons, and I'm not even in favor of that tactic at all.

 
   
 
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