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This is just a list that a friend and I threw together. I have been wanting to run Death Co. and just see if GW really did screw them up. Just let me know what you think of the list and be rough with it. I really need to figure out Blood Angels and start winning with them. Its getting harder to want to play WH40K when I lose a lot.

HQ
Mephiston

Elite
Chaplain

Furioso- Blood Talons

Troops
Death Co. x10 - 2x Power Weapon, 1x Thunderhammer
- Land Raider Redeemer w/ Multi-Melta

Death Co. Dreadnaught - Blood Talons

Assault Marines x5 - Power Weapon, Meltagun
- Razorback(Las/TL Plas)

Assault Marines x5 - Power Weapon, Meltagun
- Razorback(Las/TL Plas)

Assault Marines x5 - Power Weapon, Meltagun
- Razorback(Las/TL Plas)

Heavy
Stormraven

Total = 1850






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really... Nothing about the list is needing critique?! Come one dakka... I know you have something to say.

Gonna have to try this out, seems there were no opinions on it so it must have been decent.

Is one of those dreads walking?

Best put the dread in the stormraven. Should make him mobile.Then put the Death Company and Chaplain it it too.

This list is tiny for 1850.

10 dc? really? that many of them? Plus the lr oh jeez that is huge points right there.

1 sr will get shot down really fast its armor 12 and I would rather take fire from a las can than a mm and an assault cannon.

Suggestion more razors. maybe drop the pw and just 5 to 6 las plas razors.

Then 2 to 3 baal preds with assault cannons and hb sponsons sponsons are a personal thing i would take them.

Heavy support 2 or 3 vindicators for that extra 3 pie plates of goodness.

Hq lib with shield and rage possibly rage is useful.

Assault squads.

3 with nelta 3 with flamer.

The flamer ones should get pw melta not because of what they do if they get out right.
As in flame then assault where as if your up agaisnt a tank then a pw wont do much and a pf is jsut a little pricey for a razor spam list.

Maybe 2 to 3 speeders 1 with mm hf the rest hb hf for crowd and anti tank and no one shoots them until they have earned their points back.

So ya thats what im thinking here.

Death Co, Stormraven, Furioso and Death Co Dreadnought are all problems in this list. The Death Co are costing waaay too much, you're taking a Chaplain with them to make them better costing another 100 points more and a Death Co Dreadnought costing 125 points more.

You then have the single Land Raider, Stormraven and Furioso which are just going to be singled out. You need to take stuff in pairs. I'd take two Stormravens more than Land Raiders as they are slightly cheaper throw a Furioso into each and use the rest of the points to get maybe some Terminators instead of expensive Death Company.

Yeah I have to agree that your model count is tiny and you would probably be better off ditching the Death Company and Meph for more models.

If you want to run a Stormraven I highly recommend running as many Predators along side it as possible. Without the extra high-armor/high-firepower target saturation you will lose it very quickly. Something like this:

Librarian (Shield, Unleash Rage) - 100
Sanguinary Priest - 50
Furioso Dread - 125
10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, 2x Meltagun, Razorback w/ TL Las) - 285
5 Assault Marines (Meltagun, Razorback w/ Assault Cannon) - 165
5 Assault Marines (Meltagun, Razorback w/ Assault Cannon) - 165
5 Assault Marines (Meltagun, Razorback w/ Assault Cannon) - 165
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsions) - 145
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsions) - 145
Stormraven (Assault Cannon, Multi-Melta, Extra Armor) - 215
Predator (Autocannon, Sponsion Lascannons) - 135
Predator (Autocannon, Sponsion Lascannons) - 135
Total 1,830

That gives you 20 points for extra wargear wherever you like, and a MUCH higher vehicle count which helps to draw fire away from the Stormraven. Also, the Assault Marines are a lot more reliable than the Death Company and they can score. They might not be as powerful in combat, but you have a lot more control once they disembark.

Hope that helps!

I personally would be inclinded to drop 5 Marines from that 10 man unit as it isn't really needed, though I guess these will objective camp. I'd drop the Baals two. I'd then add another Stormraven and Furioso Dreadnought. At this points level a single Stormraven will be shot down and quickly.

Though I am liking the list

mercer wrote:I personally would be inclinded to drop 5 Marines from that 10 man unit as it isn't really needed, though I guess these will objective camp. I'd drop the Baals two. I'd then add another Stormraven and Furioso Dreadnought. At this points level a single Stormraven will be shot down and quickly.

Though I am liking the list

The point of the 10 man unit in the OP's list as well as my suggestion is for melee. Without the unit at full strength they won't be anywhere near as durable, so I would recommend keeping either unit at full strength.

A second Stormraven would be a big benefit in the first list, but in my suggested list it's not really that necessary due to the number of vehicles. The Baals and the Auto/Las Predators draw fire and are difficult to suppress, so the Stormraven has a much better chance of survival. I should also note that in my suggested list, the Razorback on the 10 man unit is empty, and the full 10 models deploy in the Stormraven with the Librarian and the Priest. The Razorback is just there to remove their Jump Packs and add some extra ranged firepower. It can also serve as a backup transport if any unit loses theirs.

How can you them at full strength with a Razorback? You either need to combat squad them to get them in which makes 5 men like before or have them on foot which isn't a good idea, which one is it? You also don't need 10 men for combat, Blood Angels ARE combat and 5 dudes with a Priest will work no problem at all.

Second is necessary not because of number of vehicles but because of dual threat. What am I going to shoot at the spammed Razorbacks and Preds or the easy big ass jet with no cover and a nasty Dreadnought in the back, honestly it's quite a easy deceison and that's why two Stormravens are needed.

Just read your comments on the 10 men squad then even more reason to shoot down the Raven and if those dudes find themselves without a Raven then they cannot combat squad after to get into the Razorback nor can the Raven carry two infantry units so that is not going to work

mercer wrote:How can you them at full strength with a Razorback? You either need to combat squad them to get them in which makes 5 men like before or have them on foot which isn't a good idea, which one is it? You also don't need 10 men for combat, Blood Angels ARE combat and 5 dudes with a Priest will work no problem at all.

OK perhaps I was not clear enough. The Razorback deploys empty, and the 10 man unit sets up inside the Stormraven. Nothing requires a unit to deploy inside of it's dedicated transport, and nothing requires that the unit be able to fit inside a dedicated transport in order to take one. The ONLY reason the Razorback is included with that unit is so that the bonus 35 points for removing their Jump Packs (so they can fit in the Stormraven) is not wasted.

mercer wrote:Second is necessary not because of number of vehicles but because of dual threat. What am I going to shoot at the spammed Razorbacks and Preds or the easy big ass jet with no cover and a nasty Dreadnought in the back, honestly it's quite a easy deceison and that's why two Stormravens are needed.

Just read your comments on the 10 men squad then even more reason to shoot down the Raven and if those dudes find themselves without a Raven then they cannot combat squad after to get into the Razorback nor can the Raven carry two infantry units so that is not going to work

It's not much harder to pop two Stormravens than it is to pop one, and to be completely honest it would be a lot better to replace it with a Land Raider, but I assume the OP want's to include it, so the list I suggested is an attempt to ensure it has as much target saturation as possible. If the BA player goes first, the Stormraven can Flat-Out for a 4+ cover save alongside the Baal Predators who Flat-Out via their Scout Move. This puts three big threats up in your opponents face, and the rest of the list follows up with a 12" move and shoots. At that point, if the opponent takes down the Stormraven it's not a huge deal since the Assault Squad is upfield and potentially in assault range. If the opponent goes first, the Stormraven could start in Reserve and Deep Strike onto the field. Even if it starts on the board, the Librarian can cast Shield and give it a 5+ cover save, which is not much but enough to potentially deflect a few shots. The reality is, if your opponent focuses on the Stormraven you have a mostly untouched mech list in their face on turn 1 and you might be able to win with that amount of firepower alone.

Some opponents will tend to focus fire on whatever is the most immediate threat, so using the Baal's Scout Move to Flat-Out 18" before the game starts could distract your opponent from shooting the Stormraven, especially if they pop smoke for a 4+ cover save. They pack a lot of firepower and your opponent might divert some resources to dealing with them first and give the Stormraven a better chance of survival.

In reality, the Stormraven is a terrible vehicle, and taking them in pairs doesn't negate that fact. For 70 points more than a vendetta they have less firepower and the same transport capacity. You pay 70 points extra for +2 armor on the rear, the armor plaiting, and the Missiles. It's always better to take a Land Raider and leave the Stormraven at home unless you just want the thing for coolness factor. Taking a single allows the rest of your force to potentially make up for the fact that they suck, and they might work as a distraction. You could also combat squad the Assault Squad inside if you didn't need the melee power (against Tau or Guard for instance), and put 5 of them inside the empty Razorback, which makes it less of an issue if the Stormraven gets shredded early.

The more competitive version of this list list would look like this:

Librarian (Shield, Unleash Rage) - 100
Sanguinary Priest (Meltabombs) - 55
10 Assault Marines (Power Fist, 2x Meltagun) - 235
Dedicated Land Raider Crusader (Multi-Melta, Extra Armor) - 240
5 Assault Marines (Meltagun, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon) - 165
5 Assault Marines (Meltagun, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon) - 165
5 Assault Marines (Meltagun, Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannon) - 165
5 Assault Marines (Meltagun, Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannon) - 165
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsions) - 145
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsions) - 145
Predator (Autocannon, Sponsion Lascannons) - 135
Predator (Autocannon, Sponsion Lascannons) - 135
Total 1,850

Land Raider instead of the Stormraven, and an extra Assault Squad in place of the Furioso Dreadnought. It's got a much better chance of survivability and the Land Raider is much harder to suppress at long range unless your opponent has Railguns. With 5 heavily armored targets and a pile of ranged firepower, this list is about a thousand times more competitive than the other.

Aldarionn wrote:

mercer wrote:How can you them at full strength with a Razorback? You either need to combat squad them to get them in which makes 5 men like before or have them on foot which isn't a good idea, which one is it? You also don't need 10 men for combat, Blood Angels ARE combat and 5 dudes with a Priest will work no problem at all.

OK perhaps I was not clear enough. The Razorback deploys empty, and the 10 man unit sets up inside the Stormraven. Nothing requires a unit to deploy inside of it's dedicated transport, and nothing requires that the unit be able to fit inside a dedicated transport in order to take one. The ONLY reason the Razorback is included with that unit is so that the bonus 35 points for removing their Jump Packs (so they can fit in the Stormraven) is not wasted.

You've edited your post since I last posted but you said the 10 man squad can jump into the Razorback if the Raven gets blown up. They cannot do this as the Razorback can only carry 6 dudes.

mercer wrote:Second is necessary not because of number of vehicles but because of dual threat. What am I going to shoot at the spammed Razorbacks and Preds or the easy big ass jet with no cover and a nasty Dreadnought in the back, honestly it's quite a easy deceison and that's why two Stormravens are needed.

Just read your comments on the 10 men squad then even more reason to shoot down the Raven and if those dudes find themselves without a Raven then they cannot combat squad after to get into the Razorback nor can the Raven carry two infantry units so that is not going to work

It's not much harder to pop two Stormravens than it is to pop one, and to be completely honest it would be a lot better to replace it with a Land Raider, but I assume the OP want's to include it, so the list I suggested is an attempt to ensure it has as much target saturation as possible. If the BA player goes first, the Stormraven can Flat-Out for a 4+ cover save alongside the Baal Predators who Flat-Out via their Scout Move. This puts three big threats up in your opponents face, and the rest of the list follows up with a 12" move and shoots. At that point, if the opponent takes down the Stormraven it's not a huge deal since the Assault Squad is upfield and potentially in assault range. If the opponent goes first, the Stormraven could start in Reserve and Deep Strike onto the field. Even if it starts on the board, the Librarian can cast Shield and give it a 5+ cover save, which is not much but enough to potentially deflect a few shots. The reality is, if your opponent focuses on the Stormraven you have a mostly untouched mech list in their face on turn 1 and you might be able to win with that amount of firepower alone.

Not it is not but you're missing the entire point. I'll look at the list and go hmmm loads of Razorbacks with lascannons and meltas so doesn't matter if I take one of those out still going to have more to fill the gap. I move onto the Predators and think taking any of these out will asborb fire power because armour 13 but also will only take lascannons out and still plenty of those. Then I look at the Stormraven. It's a big psychological target for a start so anyone with half a brain is just going to shoot it because it is there. But the reason I am going to shoot it is because it's a fast moving anti tank vehicle which can get the melta into range and bust my armour up quickly. It's also carrying a very nasty Dreadnought to drop into my lines, I don't like those and it has a Assault Squad to smash some face in though I'm not worried about these too much as they are lacking a Priest. If I fire at the Stormraven which isn't hard to take down I kill three birds with one stone; no more anti tank fast moving delivery Stormraven, Dreadnought is stuck at the back of the board and probably won't reach assault and those Assault Marines are now pissing in the wind and wished they had combat squad or be a 5 man unit to go into the Razorback in the first place. That's why you take two Stormravens for, target saturation and redundancy. You are not grasping redundnacy.

Some opponents will tend to focus fire on whatever is the most immediate threat, so using the Baal's Scout Move to Flat-Out 18" before the game starts could distract your opponent from shooting the Stormraven, especially if they pop smoke for a 4+ cover save. They pack a lot of firepower and your opponent might divert some resources to dealing with them first and give the Stormraven a better chance of survival.

In reality, the Stormraven is a terrible vehicle, and taking them in pairs doesn't negate that fact. For 70 points more than a vendetta they have less firepower and the same transport capacity. You pay 70 points extra for +2 armor on the rear, the armor plaiting, and the Missiles. It's always better to take a Land Raider and leave the Stormraven at home unless you just want the thing for coolness factor. Taking a single allows the rest of your force to potentially make up for the fact that they suck, and they might work as a distraction. You could also combat squad the Assault Squad inside if you didn't need the melee power (against Tau or Guard for instance), and put 5 of them inside the empty Razorback, which makes it less of an issue if the Stormraven gets shredded early.

Raven can go flat out if you go first but how many cover saves can you make? I don't think you will pass all of them and a immobilised result will wreck a skimmer when going flat out . As you said yourself turbo boosting will put three units in the opponents face and that's why it will be shot down for, you kill three units with one stone. As my earlier point it doesn't matter if you focus on anything else because it won't be a significant impact first turn on the amount of long range fire power which is there.

Your list was good, it just could be that little bit better

So over all... DC and DC dreads are junk and Stormravens should be melted down into terrain? I dissagree. Yes they get blasted out of the sky a little easier than most would want, BUT They can be a HUGE gunship for one turn after they deliver a furioso and whatever is inside. The unit jumps out, assaults w/e with the dread, SR unloads on something important with missiles, meltas, and bullets (oh my).. I think they are better than what most give them credit for.

vyndetta85 wrote:So over all... DC and DC dreads are junk and Stormravens should be melted down into terrain? I dissagree. Yes they get blasted out of the sky a little easier than most would want, BUT They can be a HUGE gunship for one turn after they deliver a furioso and whatever is inside. The unit jumps out, assaults w/e with the dread, SR unloads on something important with missiles, meltas, and bullets (oh my).. I think they are better than what most give them credit for.

Is this your actual experience, or a theory? If you have actual experience, I'd love to hear about it.

See, my theory is that Stormravens are better in multiples. I have no actual experience with them, but my thinking is that with multiples, you can more or less guarantee that you'll get at least one of them across the table, which will enable the contents to mulch your opponent. The Dreadnoughts would be key here, since there are so few things that can really stand up to them in an Assault.

The army would work best with first turn, though, which is why I think it would only be semi-competitive in a tournament sense. If you go second, you have to reserve, which means there's too much of a chance that the Stormravens come in one at a time. The other weakness will be a lack of scoring units. You are basically forced to use a cheap unit of DC and a DC Dread to make it work (at least if you're like me and plan to run 3). Mephiston is also pretty close to being mandatory, so you end up with a very top-heavy list.

Anyway, why were you consistently able to get the Stormraven across the board? Did you have good luck getting first turn, were your opponents shooting something else, or what? Statistically, one unit of Missile Long Fangs has about a 30% chance of wrecking a Stormraven that moves flat-out. I guess Mephiston is still in their face, since he's so fast, but the Furioso would be about mid-field, and very vulnerable.

I guess one thing to take away from your experience is that making Mephiston half the cargo might mitigate some of the risk from taking a lone Stormraven, as he's still fast enough to be useful even if it gets popped on your side of the board. The issue is that he really doesn't particularly need the transport if there's some LOS blocking terrain.

i run one raven somehow it manages to survive. also, this list needs more blood talons. lots of blood talons. in fact i want you to go to your lfgs buy a furioso, and say " we're going blood talon on this one." and if anyone gives you any lip whisper "hater," sensually and walk away. it gets all the girls, trust me.

MrEconomics wrote:See, my theory is that Stormravens are better in multiples. I have no actual experience with them, but my thinking is that with multiples, you can more or less guarantee that you'll get at least one of them across the table, which will enable the contents to mulch your opponent. The Dreadnoughts would be key here, since there are so few things that can really stand up to them in an Assault.

The army would work best with first turn, though, which is why I think it would only be semi-competitive in a tournament sense. If you go second, you have to reserve, which means there's too much of a chance that the Stormravens come in one at a time. The other weakness will be a lack of scoring units. You are basically forced to use a cheap unit of DC and a DC Dread to make it work (at least if you're like me and plan to run 3). Mephiston is also pretty close to being mandatory, so you end up with a very top-heavy list.

Anyway, why were you consistently able to get the Stormraven across the board? Did you have good luck getting first turn, were your opponents shooting something else, or what? Statistically, one unit of Missile Long Fangs has about a 30% chance of wrecking a Stormraven that moves flat-out. I guess Mephiston is still in their face, since he's so fast, but the Furioso would be about mid-field, and very vulnerable.

I guess one thing to take away from your experience is that making Mephiston half the cargo might mitigate some of the risk from taking a lone Stormraven, as he's still fast enough to be useful even if it gets popped on your side of the board. The issue is that he really doesn't particularly need the transport if there's some LOS blocking terrain.

I actually do recall getting luck and getting to go first each round. They only time the SR was destroyed was against orks. The guy got waaaaaaaaaaaaay lucky with an orc rocket on turn 1. I moved flat out and his rocket made it crash. Still raped some face with meph because why?.... He was already close enough for wings, fleet, assault. The Furioso was also close enough. Just took one round of shooting and nothing happend. Anyway. I am going to go back to the drawing boards tonight and see what I can come up with involving 2 Ravens. Thanks for all the talk here. I enjoy hashing it out with other players on list and model functionality. Makes me think I know what I am doing LOL!!!

I drop a ten man squad of death company plus a dc dread into the mix with a storm raven, it works most of the time, leading to complete carnage. If you want to have some fun then dc are the way to go. You can pump heavy fire into units while you ferry dc around.
The thing to do if you're not going first is to stick it in reserve, i believe dante gives you rerolls on reserves, then bring it on and fly it flat out suffer a turn of shooting then sjove it down the other guys neck.

vyndetta85 wrote:So over all... DC and DC dreads are junk and Stormravens should be melted down into terrain? I dissagree. Yes they get blasted out of the sky a little easier than most would want, BUT They can be a HUGE gunship for one turn after they deliver a furioso and whatever is inside. The unit jumps out, assaults w/e with the dread, SR unloads on something important with missiles, meltas, and bullets (oh my).. I think they are better than what most give them credit for.

I didn't actually say that, you've just made that up. I said Death Company are expensive and I'm not going to say about the Stormravens as there's plenty of text above which appears you haven't read

Since the point of the list is to try out Death Company I will keep my comments to including Death Company. Personally I run DC and like them, are they terrible? No. Are they optimal? No. Does that make them unplayable? No. You list does need a little work though.

First take 2 SR with 2 Furioso Dreads not DC dread.
I would actually run 5 DC with JP w/ either Astorath or a Chappy with JP in one SR. Put an Honor Guard with JPs and Wound Allocation Spam in the other with a Librarian.

After that I would flavor to taste. It is a fun list that does relatively well. Here is mine.

HQ
Astorath
Libro JP Unleash Rage/Might
Honor Guard (5) JP SS/LC,SS/PF,SS/LC,SS/PW, SangNovitiate

Troops:
DC (5) JP PF,2xPW
3x Assault Squads (5) MG,PF, Razorback with Heavy Flamers

Heavy:
2x Stormravens with EA/MM/AC

It is fun, can work competitively, and uses DC like you wanted. To be truly Competitive though you'd probably want to drop the DC and Astorath and pick up a Assault Termie squad in the other SR and a Dread for one of the ravens.

OverwatchCNC wrote:Since the point of the list is to try out Death Company I will keep my comments to including Death Company. Personally I run DC and like them, are they terrible? No. Are they optimal? No. Does that make them unplayable? No. You list does need a little work though.

First take 2 SR with 2 Furioso Dreads not DC dread.
I would actually run 5 DC with JP w/ either Astorath or a Chappy with JP in one SR. Put an Honor Guard with JPs and Wound Allocation Spam in the other with a Librarian.

After that I would flavor to taste. It is a fun list that does relatively well. Here is mine.

HQ
Astorath
Libro JP Unleash Rage/Might
Honor Guard (5) JP SS/LC,SS/PF,SS/LC,SS/PW, SangNovitiate

Troops:
DC (5) JP PF,2xPW
3x Assault Squads (5) MG,PF, Razorback with Heavy Flamers

Heavy:
2x Stormravens with EA/MM/AC

It is fun, can work competitively, and uses DC like you wanted. To be truly Competitive though you'd probably want to drop the DC and Astorath and pick up a Assault Termie squad in the other SR and a Dread for one of the ravens.

Does this list come out to 1850? I like the way it looks. I will have to proxy the Honor Guard. But it does look fun. Sadly I will be play testing it agains Wolves or IG. So it probly wont go very well... But I still have fun most of the time... unless the SW player is using that lame @$$ thunder cav... I hate those guys.

Yes it comes in at a little under 1850.

TWC? Shoot all your Blood Strike Missiles into them, then multi charge with the DC/Honor Guard units. Between Astorath buffing the DC and the Libro Buffing the HG you should be able to take them out NP. I play SW extensively, much more than I play BA, and my TWC weep at the sight of that many PW attacks with re-rolls. Especially after a full volley of Blood Strike Missiles.

I think I will have to do this. I just really dislike the counter attack rule they have. Nothing else has this army wide and TBH I think its a little bit OP.

I strongly dislike SW. But that is the reason they are going to be my next army.

vyndetta85 wrote:I think I will have to do this. I just really dislike the counter attack rule they have. Nothing else has this army wide and TBH I think its a little bit OP.

I strongly dislike SW. But that is the reason they are going to be my next army.

I started playing wolves the minute the new codex came out and was overjoyed with how well they have stood the test of time. And by time I mean codex creep of course. You need to watch out for that counter attack, it can be a real hindrance to your CC capabilities.

**Rant on**

I guess the whole point of my argument was, if you are playing competitively you should never field a Stormraven. It tends to get focus-fired into the ground, and it's too expensive to use as a distraction, especially when carrying a melee unit and a dreadnought. If you aren't playing competitively, then it doesn't matter a whole lot what you take along with the Stormraven. Taking multiples gives your opponent TWO massive fire magnets, likely carrying multiple expensive melee units and Dreadnoughts and you are just that much more likely to get tabled faster. In a friendly setting it's probably better to take a large vehicle saturation along with the Stormraven to make up for the loss if you lose it early.

I'm disappointed that GW made such awful rules for such a cool kit. Even making it AV 14/12/10 would have made the thing infinitely better, or 13/11/10 and closer to the cost of a Falcon (100-130 base with just the two guns, and optional missiles/weapons/upgrades). As it is right now, a lucky shot from a Long Fang unit can bury the thing on turn 1, and that's 200+ points down the drain and potentially two units stranded before you even move. Sure that always has a potential of happening no matter the vehicle, but it's much easier to give a Land Raider cover, and there are a lot fewer weapons out there that can do it.

**Rant Off**

Bleh, it's good to get that off my chest from time to time. My apologies if I hijacked your thread!

Aldarionn wrote:**Rant on**

I guess the whole point of my argument was, if you are playing competitively you should never field a Stormraven. It tends to get focus-fired into the ground, and it's too expensive to use as a distraction, especially when carrying a melee unit and a dreadnought. If you aren't playing competitively, then it doesn't matter a whole lot what you take along with the Stormraven. Taking multiples gives your opponent TWO massive fire magnets, likely carrying multiple expensive melee units and Dreadnoughts and you are just that much more likely to get tabled faster. In a friendly setting it's probably better to take a large vehicle saturation along with the Stormraven to make up for the loss if you lose it early.

I'm disappointed that GW made such awful rules for such a cool kit. Even making it AV 14/12/10 would have made the thing infinitely better, or 13/11/10 and closer to the cost of a Falcon (100-130 base with just the two guns, and optional missiles/weapons/upgrades). As it is right now, a lucky shot from a Long Fang unit can bury the thing on turn 1, and that's 200+ points down the drain and potentially two units stranded before you even move. Sure that always has a potential of happening no matter the vehicle, but it's much easier to give a Land Raider cover, and there are a lot fewer weapons out there that can do it.

**Rant Off**

Bleh, it's good to get that off my chest from time to time. My apologies if I hijacked your thread!

You didnt Hijack anything. I just have been really busy and havent been able to keep up with the thread. Andway, I agree/disagree with you. I see the point you make about it being low armor and easily seen and destroyed. Thats why you put them in reserve if your not going first. Then get them on the board and turbo boost, get your cover. There are a few ways that I have discovered some shinanigans when it comes to being able to move and get everything in place.

The SR is way over priced. And it is easier to hide a LR BUT at the same time, No one said you couldnt shorten the SR base. (Or does it) If so, tell me where. I do agree they could have been a little smarter when it came to protecting the SR armor. The plating is cool and all but I think it should atleast be 13/11/10 and not have the exit hatch on the front. Have them in the rear and the sides. Overall.. is it terrible, no. Is it expensive, yes. Is it useless, no.

A model must be mounted on the base it was provided with, and that base cannot be altered for advantage in any way. Skimmers cannot lengthen or shorten their flight stands, and the only option they have is to use a shorter or longer flight stand if one is provided (like Eldar Skimmers and Land Speeders, which have several flight stand length options and may select a longer or shorter flight stand when you assemble the model). The Stormraven is only provided with one length of flight stand, and so it must use it as provided, with no alteration. Additionally, it cannot remove its flight stand during the game except when immobilized or destroyed. All of this is spelled out in the first few pages of the Rulebook, the Skimmer section and the FAQ for the Rulebook.

Most tournaments will also have additional rules specifically regarding modelling for advantage, and so you should check with the TO for any event you attend if you plan on altering your Stormraven base for any reason.

Aldarionn wrote:**Rant on**

I guess the whole point of my argument was, if you are playing competitively you should never field a Stormraven. It tends to get focus-fired into the ground, and it's too expensive to use as a distraction, especially when carrying a melee unit and a dreadnought. If you aren't playing competitively, then it doesn't matter a whole lot what you take along with the Stormraven. Taking multiples gives your opponent TWO massive fire magnets, likely carrying multiple expensive melee units and Dreadnoughts and you are just that much more likely to get tabled faster. In a friendly setting it's probably better to take a large vehicle saturation along with the Stormraven to make up for the loss if you lose it early.

I'm disappointed that GW made such awful rules for such a cool kit. Even making it AV 14/12/10 would have made the thing infinitely better, or 13/11/10 and closer to the cost of a Falcon (100-130 base with just the two guns, and optional missiles/weapons/upgrades). As it is right now, a lucky shot from a Long Fang unit can bury the thing on turn 1, and that's 200+ points down the drain and potentially two units stranded before you even move. Sure that always has a potential of happening no matter the vehicle, but it's much easier to give a Land Raider cover, and there are a lot fewer weapons out there that can do it.

**Rant Off**

Bleh, it's good to get that off my chest from time to time. My apologies if I hijacked your thread!

And your qualifications are?

The Stormraven is perfectly suitable for competitive play. Hell, look at Adepticon. All of the Top 16 Blood Angels players fielded them. It is all about the player and how they use it.
Is it perfect? No. But it is usable. As has been mentioned, 1 turn of flat-outting with the SR will almost always put you in a good position to assault the next turn. That alone is generally worth the price you pay. Being able to shoot a weapon after moving flat-out is also very advantageous. I would recommend multiples though. I'd also build around them.

I have yet to see a player running a Stormraven take a single 1st place tournament win. That's not to say it hasn't happened, but I haven't seen it in my area nor have I seen it in national tournament results. In fact, the Blood Angels players you mentioned were spread out pretty widely across the standings, with the highest placing 4th in the qualifier and dropping out during the final. The highest Blood Angels player in the Gladiator competition was 10th place.

I'm of the opinion that taking a Stormraven Gunship in a highly competitive tournament will lower your chances of placing higher in the tournament than if you had built a list without the Stormraven. This is simply MY opinion, and certainly everyone is entitled to their own, but it seems to be shared by some of the players that I respect, and so I will stick to it. I feel the Stormraven is a sub-par unit, and while a good player can certainly make it work in a competitive setting, that's not to say he won't be at a disadvantage because of it. In fact, overcoming disadvantage and placing higher in a tournament while taking units that might be below the top-tier curve is the mark of a very strong player.

If you want to field the Stormraven, then do so and be aware of its disadvantages. For my money, I'll leave the 200 point fire magnet to casual play.