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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/13/half-of-new-testament-forged-bible-scholar-says/?iref=obinsite

Its an interesting thing to check out. Is half of the new testament forged?

 
   
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






I foresee a well balanced, reasonable discussion in our future.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

Not particularly surprised...

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK


 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

For those of you at fascist workplaces...

Half of New Testament forged, Bible scholar says

By John Blake, CNN

(CNN) - A frail man sits in chains inside a dank, cold prison cell. He has escaped death before but now realizes that his execution is drawing near.

“I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come,” the man –the Apostle Paul - says in the Bible's 2 Timothy. “I have fought the good fight. I have finished the race. I have kept the faith.”

The passage is one of the most dramatic scenes in the New Testament. Paul, the most prolific New Testament author, is saying goodbye from a Roman prison cell before being beheaded. His goodbye veers from loneliness to defiance and, finally, to joy.

There’s one just one problem - Paul didn’t write those words. In fact, virtually half the New Testament was written by impostors taking on the names of apostles like Paul. At least according to Bart D. Ehrman, a renowned biblical scholar, who makes the charges in his new book “Forged.”

“There were a lot of people in the ancient world who thought that lying could serve a greater good,” says Ehrman, an expert on ancient biblical manuscripts.In “Forged,” Ehrman claims that:

* At least 11 of the 27 New Testament books are forgeries.

* The New Testament books attributed to Jesus’ disciples could not have been written by them because they were illiterate.

* Many of the New Testament’s forgeries were manufactured by early Christian leaders trying to settle theological feuds.

Were Jesus’ disciples ‘illiterate peasants?'

Ehrman’s book, like many of his previous ones, is already generating backlash. Ben Witherington, a New Testament scholar, has written a lengthy online critique of “Forged.”

Witherington calls Ehrman’s book “Gullible Travels, for it reveals over and over again the willingness of people to believe even outrageous things.”

All of the New Testament books, with the exception of 2 Peter, can be traced back to a very small group of literate Christians, some of whom were eyewitnesses to the lives of Jesus and Paul, Witherington says.

“Forged” also underestimates the considerable role scribes played in transcribing documents during the earliest days of Christianity, Witherington says.

Even if Paul didn’t write the second book of Timothy, he would have dictated it to a scribe for posterity, he says.

“When you have a trusted colleague or co-worker who knows the mind of Paul, there was no problem in antiquity with that trusted co-worker hearing Paul’s last testimony in prison,” he says. “This is not forgery. This is the last will and testament of someone who is dying.”

Ehrman doesn’t confine his critique to Paul’s letters. He challenges the authenticity of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John. He says that none were written by Jesus' disciplies, citing two reasons.

He says none of the earliest gospels revealed the names of its authors, and that their current names were later added by scribes.

Ehrman also says that two of Jesus’ original disciples, John and Peter, could not have written the books attributed to them in the New Testament because they were illiterate.

“According to Acts 4:13, both Peter and his companion John, also a fisherman, were agrammatoi, a Greek word that literally means ‘unlettered,’ that is, ‘illiterate,’ ’’ he writes.

Will the real Paul stand up?

Ehrman reserves most of his scrutiny for the writings of Paul, which make up the bulk of the New Testament. He says that only about half of the New Testament letters attributed to Paul – 7 of 13 - were actually written by him.

Paul's remaining books are forgeries, Ehrman says. His proof: inconsistencies in the language, choice of words and blatant contradiction in doctrine.

For example, Ehrman says the book of Ephesians doesn’t conform to Paul’s distinctive Greek writing style. He says Paul wrote in short, pointed sentences while Ephesians is full of long Greek sentences (the opening sentence of thanksgiving in Ephesians unfurls a sentence that winds through 12 verses, he says).

“There’s nothing wrong with extremely long sentences in Greek; it just isn’t the way Paul wrote. It’s like Mark Twain and William Faulkner; they both wrote correctly, but you would never mistake the one for the other,” Ehrman writes.

The scholar also points to a famous passage in 1 Corinthians in which Paul is recorded as saying that women should be “silent” in churches and that “if they wish to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home.”

Only three chapters earlier, in the same book, Paul is urging women who pray and prophesy in church to cover their heads with veils, Ehrman says: “If they were allowed to speak in chapter 11, how could they be told not to speak in chapter 14?”

Why people forged

Forgers often did their work because they were trying to settle early church disputes, Ehrman says. The early church was embroiled in conflict - people argued over the treatment of women, leadership and relations between masters and slaves, he says.

“There was competition among different groups of Christians about what to believe and each of these groups wanted to have authority to back up their views,” he says. “If you were a nobody, you wouldn’t sign your own name to your treatise. You would sign Peter or John.”

So people claiming to be Peter and John - and all sorts of people who claimed to know Jesus - went into publishing overdrive. Ehrman estimates that there were about 100 forgeries created in the name of Jesus’ inner-circle during the first four centuries of the church.

Witherington concedes that fabrications and forgeries floated around the earliest Christian communities.

But he doesn’t accept the notion that Peter, for example, could not have been literate because he was a fisherman.

“Fisherman had to do business. Guess what? That involves writing, contracts and signed documents,” he said in an interview.

Witherington says people will gravitate toward Ehrman’s work because the media loves sensationalism.

“We live in a Jesus-haunted culture that’s biblically illiterate,” he says. “Almost anything can pass for historical information… A book liked ‘Forged’ can unsettle people who have no third or fourth opinions to draw upon.”

Ehrman, of course, has another point of view.

“Forged” will help people accept something that it took him a long time to accept, says the author, a former fundamentalist who is now an agnostic.

The New Testament wasn’t written by the finger of God, he says – it has human fingerprints all over its pages.

“I’m not saying people should throw it out or it’s not theologically fruitful,” Ehrman says. “I’m saying that by realizing it contains so many forgeries, it shows that it’s a very human book, down to the fact that some authors lied about who they were.”



Sigh...

I'm in before the lock

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/18 20:01:32


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 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

why would linking to an article i found on CNN deserve a lock?

 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

frgsinwntr wrote:why would linking to an article i found on CNN deserve a lock?



It's not you, its then *motions to the rest of Dakka*

Religious discussions never end well

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3100+

 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight



Houston, Texas

Yeah this is going to spiral downhill very fast.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





Norwich

Thats a shame....

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Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

I haven't even read it yet, just did the C&P. Not sure I wanna read it...

EDIT: Read it. Not surprised. This is gonna go in the same direction as most Qur'an debates

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/18 20:06:10


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3100+

 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Norwich

Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
frgsinwntr wrote:why would linking to an article i found on CNN deserve a lock?



It's not you, its then *motions to the rest of Dakka*

Religious discussions never end well


We've had an 8 page one without anything bad happening....
Even got a couple of Supernatural references in

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Of course. I am sure CNN deeply researched, and after in depth peer review, came forward with this book review. I am sure no one has an alterior interest, including the agnostic author. I'm also sure no Dakka posters would stoop to take advantage to fire off cheap shots.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/18 20:06:01


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

Frazzled wrote:Of course. I am sure CNN deeply researched, and after in depth peer review, came forward with this book review.

You cynic you...

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in us
Smokin' Skorcha Driver






 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight



Houston, Texas

I dont know why but that picture always makes me laugh

Daemons-
Bretonnia-
Orcs n' Goblins-  
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

rodgers37 wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
frgsinwntr wrote:why would linking to an article i found on CNN deserve a lock?



It's not you, its then *motions to the rest of Dakka*

Religious discussions never end well


We've had an 8 page one without anything bad happening....
Even got a couple of Supernatural references in



Link? Sorry, I just can't believe and 8 page discussion didn't get locked and no one got suspended...

Bane's P&M Blog, pop in and leave a comment
3100+

 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Norwich

The one, not far down this page with Steven Hawkins in the title... I posted at least 30 times in it i reckon

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369287.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/18 20:08:22


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Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

Oh, how bout that...

Bane's P&M Blog, pop in and leave a comment
3100+

 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

agnostic or not, Do you think that applying modern day methods of dectecting forgeries to the bible passages should show whether or not they are falsified?

 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

Well if what the guy said is true, the Bible just contradicted itself...

Bane's P&M Blog, pop in and leave a comment
3100+

 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Norwich

The old and New testament do contradict each other....

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Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

I meant the New Testament contradicts itself.

Bane's P&M Blog, pop in and leave a comment
3100+

 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Norwich

Probably, it is written by numerous different people, regardless of how much if any was forged.

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Swindon, Wiltshire, UK

Most of the bible contradicts itself, the old testament tends to be worse for that though.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Its like the New Testament and the Old Testament are different somehow...

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

This is going to be fun.

The New Testament books attributed to Jesus’ disciples could not have been written by them because they were illiterate.


This isn't even new information. Christians who actually read the books have known this for a long time. Most of the works were written by others or possibly dictated and many of the letters of Paul are believed to have been dictated. No one even thinks the gospels were written by Jesus' disciples except people who don't pay attention or have never bothered looking it up (and I suppose super hard core religious fundamentalists).

Many of the New Testament’s forgeries were manufactured by early Christian leaders trying to settle theological feuds.


Theological feuding didn't start until after most of the documents in the NT have been dated. We'd got copies from the 2nd century before any major feuding began because the community was too small to start slapping each other over issues.

This Ben Witherington guy seems to know what he's talking about too, except for that being able to trace the books to their origins bit. Never heard of that before. Ehrman sounds like Dan Brown. A guy who likes to write inflamatory information (some of which apparently isn't even new information in this case) too sell books.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/05/18 20:28:52


   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

Given that the bible has been an actively edited and adopted work for its entire history (you think Conservepedia's attempt to write a 'correct' bible that suits their own world views is the first time that's ever happened) and that the old testament draws on stories that stretch pretty much all the way back to the dawn of civilization (the book of Job, IIRC, originated in Sumerian myth), the fact that parts of it contradict, or that all of the authors are not who they claimed to be is hardly a surprise.

"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
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Fixture of Dakka






Akron, OH



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Norwich

That is funny

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Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Right off, I have to disagree with Ehrman's contention that since John and Peter supposition they were"unlettered", hence, illiterate. It's very likely they raised in the tradition to ready and study the Torah as children, so while they may not be formerly schooled like the Pharisees were, they most likely could read and write. Plus many of the apostles, even Paul, used scribes.

But the Bible is a real mess in regards to interpretation. Many parts are missing, or poorly translated. Ehrman's criticism of Pual's different writing styles does not take account of him either using different scribes, or more importantly writing in the style to a specific audience, using their idioms and culture in his words to relate to them. So he would speak one manner to a Hebrew audience, then another to Greeks, Romans, etc.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/05/18 20:42:05


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