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Who do you think would win between 10 Leman Russes coming into contact with 10 Hammerheads?

The setting is an open landscape a few miles wide. With some rolling hills for cover.

Hammerheads.

Hammerheads all the way!

Probably Hammerheads. They are built to kill tanks. Russes are more of an all-purpose vehicle.

Hammerheads no question. Honestly, who will win, anti-tank vehicle or anti infantry? Hmmm.

Hammerheads. The Russes wouldn't have a chance.

How about you all provide proof,quotes or such that prove their superiority over Russes.

IvanTih wrote:How about you all provide proof,quotes or such that prove their superiority over Russes.

Hammerheads have:
1. Superior range
2. Superior accuracy
3. Versatility
4. Speed/maneuverability
5. Better secondary weapons
6. Can 1v1 pretty much any heavy tank its size
7. FREAKING RAILGUNS

ever heard the story about the railgun which went through a russ, leaving the crew which were described as merely a stain on the ground following the trajectory of the shot?
Yeah, thats pretty much it.

IvanTih wrote:How about you all provide proof,quotes or such that prove their superiority over Russes.

Railguns have much longer range and are meant to punch through tanks with ease. The Leman Russ is a tank that's slower and has much shorter effective range. While more robust and much more capable against more general threats, against a tank equipped with weaponry made to break right through it, it won't stand a chance.

That's what the artillery's for.

Fafnir wrote:

IvanTih wrote:How about you all provide proof,quotes or such that prove their superiority over Russes.

Railguns have much longer range and are meant to punch through tanks with ease. The Leman Russ is a tank that's slower and has much shorter effective range. While more robust and much more capable against more general threats, against a tank equipped with weaponry made to break right through it, it won't stand a chance.

That's what the artillery's for.

I ask quotes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rockprime wrote:

IvanTih wrote:How about you all provide proof,quotes or such that prove their superiority over Russes.

Hammerheads have:
1. Superior range
2. Superior accuracy
3. Versatility
4. Speed/maneuverability
5. Better secondary weapons
6. Can 1v1 pretty much any heavy tank its size
7. FREAKING RAILGUNS

ever heard the story about the railgun which went through a russ, leaving the crew which were described as merely a stain on the ground following the trajectory of the shot?
Yeah, thats pretty much it.

That's just one source.

IvanTih wrote:
That's just one source.

Read Courage and Honor. Plenty of occurances of Hammerheads bringing the pain on Russes.
Also i bring up sources Codex: Tau Empire, and Codex: Imperial Guard
Railgun: 72" 10 1
LR weapon: 60" 8 3
Hammerhead BS = 4, LR BS = 3
Hammerhead can move 12" and fire, LR can move 6
Hammerhead has 2 BCs which fire 6 shots, missiles that can ignore LOS, or drones which can be let off to use as cover or contest objectives, LR has heavy bolter with 3
Hammerhead has 4+ cover save at 12+"
LR has side sponsons which will never be in range against a good Tau commander
Don't forget the fact that the LR battlecannon is a blast, not a solid shot, so theres a good chance of it missing completely at BS 3

IvanTih wrote:How about you all provide proof,quotes or such that prove their superiority over Russes.

Do you not understand math or something? It's painfully obvious.

Do you know what a Hammerhead is? Do you know what a Leman Russ is? It doesn't take a mathematical proof. It's really obvious.

The Leman Russ tanks of course. Their tanks are armored with faith in the Emperor's benevolence, and their crews have Him on Earth watching over them.

What does the Tau have against that? Advanced technology and heretical xeno logic? Psh, no contest.

How is a Leman Russ battle tank supposed to win against a 75KM per hour flying machine on open terrain, firing a slug moving so fast that this slug is impossible for your armor to stop and will reduce your crew to nothing but a several-mile trail on the ground with a direct hit, using a fire solution handed to the gunner by some super computer. Especially when you can hardly even see the hammerhead due to it's disruption pods creating a mirage effect?

Maybe a few hydras but a Leman Russ? This doesn't even come close to a fair fight until they enter a city or another situation where the Leman Russ has cover to close from. It's like world war II american tanks versus German tanks in the North African theater.

rockprime wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
That's just one source.

Read Courage and Honor. Plenty of occurances of Hammerheads bringing the pain on Russes.
Also i bring up sources Codex: Tau Empire, and Codex: Imperial Guard
Railgun: 72" 10 1
LR weapon: 60" 8 3
Hammerhead BS = 4, LR BS = 3
Hammerhead can move 12" and fire, LR can move 6
Hammerhead has 2 BCs which fire 6 shots, missiles that can ignore LOS, or drones which can be let off to use as cover or contest objectives, LR has heavy bolter with 3
Hammerhead has 4+ cover save at 12+"
LR has side sponsons which will never be in range against a good Tau commander
Don't forget the fact that the LR battlecannon is a blast, not a solid shot, so theres a good chance of it missing completely at BS 3

The same novel where Tau Hammerheads get stomped by the Imperial armor(especially by a Baneblade).

Also I wouldn't use game mechanics as they aren't a good indicator of someone's abilities.


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ph34r wrote:

IvanTih wrote:How about you all provide proof,quotes or such that prove their superiority over Russes.

Do you not understand math or something? It's painfully obvious.

Do you know what a Hammerhead is? Do you know what a Leman Russ is? It doesn't take a mathematical proof. It's really obvious.

Until I get quotes I don't care.I know what is a Hammerhead,but when you make a claim you must provide a proof.

IvanTih wrote:Also I wouldn't use game mechanics as they aren't a good indicator of someone's abilities.

There is no other way for the hammerhead.

IvanTih wrote:Until I get quotes I don't care.I know what is a Hammerhead,but when you make a claim you must provide a proof.

You know what a hammerhead is.
You know what the weapons range is.
You know what its strength is.
You know what its AP is.

I don't care if you are able to put it all together or not.

IvanTih wrote:
The same novel where Tau Hammerheads get stomped by the Imperial armor(especially by a Baneblade).

Also I wouldn't use game mechanics as they aren't a good indicator of someone's abilities.

Seriously? You don't want numbers, you don't *believe* the rules set. You require FLUFF to back up a position?

Isn't that rather like asking how much beer is in the fridge not by counting beer bottles, but by relating drinking stories from college?

I smell bridge abatement.

10*0.666=6.66 hits.
of them half will do nothing
1.11 will glance
2.22 will penetrate

Leman russ
10 cannons
of them
3.33 will hit directly, the rest will scatter perhaps 1 won't scatter too far or you'll reduce with your BS so 4.44 hits
of them half will go away
2.22 hits
of them 1/3 will do nothing, 1/6 will glance and 1/2 will penetrate
so 1 pen and 1 glance?

Phototoxin wrote:10*0.666=6.66 hits.
of them half will do nothing
1.11 will glance
2.22 will penetrate

Leman russ
10 cannons
of them
3.33 will hit directly, the rest will scatter perhaps 1 won't scatter too far or you'll reduce with your BS so 4.44 hits
of them half will go away
2.22 hits
of them 1/3 will do nothing, 1/6 will glance and 1/2 will penetrate
so 1 pen and 1 glance?

If you can get Range. The HammerHeads have twice the move, and can sit at 67" and just stick and move.

ph34r wrote:*snip*

It's still game mechanics and GW has stated that GM are not a good indicator of the abilities.


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Bounty wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
The same novel where Tau Hammerheads get stomped by the Imperial armor(especially by a Baneblade).

Also I wouldn't use game mechanics as they aren't a good indicator of someone's abilities.

Seriously? You don't want numbers, you don't *believe* the rules set. You require FLUFF to back up a position?

Isn't that rather like asking how much beer is in the fridge not by counting beer bottles, but by relating drinking stories from college?

I smell bridge abatement.

It isn't.The fluff is the actual indicator of someone's abilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The game stats are that only to create a fair and balanced game, however the 40k universe is not balanced.

The game takes the background of the 40k universe and tries to create a fun game with it.It is clearly not how the really 40k universe works.

IvanTih wrote:How about you all provide proof,quotes or such that prove their superiority over Russes.

Imperial Armour III, pg. 65:
"Railguns proved highly effective weapons in the open deserts, outperforming the Imperial Guard's own battle cannons, and giving the Tau the decisive edge in tank verses tank combat."

pg.66:
"After five days advancing, the 12th Armoured Regiment had lost 50% of its tank strength amongst the forward deployed companies. They had inflicted some damage on the enemy, but it was an uneven exchange." It then describes how they moved Basilisks to anti-tank duties to counter Tau's long range superiority.

As much as I hate Taros Campaign, it does clearly state that the Hammerhead is capable of putting the pain on the Russ, especially in scenarios mentioned when its on a relatively open field. The Russ's superiority comes when you factor in that it's:
a) Much cheaper.
b) Can do more things.
c) Easier to maintaing/supply.

However don't think it'll be a perfect battle for the Tau. It is canon that Leman Russes carry AT shells, which will be able to put the pain on any Hammerheads that get hit.

I like think of it with the Hammerheads as Tiger Tanks and Leman Russes as T-34s. The Hammerheads can put the pain down at range, but the Imperium has more Leman Russes than the Tau have railgun rounds, so yeah....

Don't forget that as the Battle Cannon is a blast weapon, if it scatters off the hull and the centre point isn't on the Hammerhead, it's only a S4 weapon and therefore very unlikely to do anything. Plus the 4+ cover save you're almost guaranteed to have equipped it with is going to help somewhat...

Hammerheads, it's their job really.

LR is more for anti-infantry in the guise of being well rounded in the standard configuration.

ChrisWWII wrote:As much as I hate Taros Campaign, it does clearly state that the Hammerhead is capable of putting the pain on the Russ, especially in scenarios mentioned when its on a relatively open field. The Russ's superiority comes when you factor in that it's:
a) Much cheaper.
b) Can do more things.
c) Easier to maintaing/supply.

However don't think it'll be a perfect battle for the Tau. It is canon that Leman Russes carry AT shells, which will be able to put the pain on any Hammerheads that get hit.

I like think of it with the Hammerheads as Tiger Tanks and Leman Russes as T-34s. The Hammerheads can put the pain down at range, but the Imperium has more Leman Russes than the Tau have railgun rounds, so yeah....

The Imperium does, yeah. But in deployment of IG vs Tau, of roughly equally matched forces, there will be as many Hammerheads as LRBTs, and the LRBTs will get hammered.

IvanTih wrote:

ph34r wrote:*snip*

It's still game mechanics and GW has stated that GM are not a good indicator of the abilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bounty wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
The same novel where Tau Hammerheads get stomped by the Imperial armor(especially by a Baneblade).

Also I wouldn't use game mechanics as they aren't a good indicator of someone's abilities.

Seriously? You don't want numbers, you don't *believe* the rules set. You require FLUFF to back up a position?

Isn't that rather like asking how much beer is in the fridge not by counting beer bottles, but by relating drinking stories from college?

I smell bridge abatement.

It isn't.The fluff is the actual indicator of someone's abilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The game stats are that only to create a fair and balanced game, however the 40k universe is not balanced.

The game takes the background of the 40k universe and tries to create a fun game with it.It is clearly not how the really 40k universe works.

Since you are obviously so vehemently opposed to anyone suggesting Hammerheads will win, why don't you provide us with the vast array of fluff that has Leman Russes stomping on Hammerheads on flat, open terrain several miles wide that you must have stockpiled to act as a rebuttal when simple contradiction becomes boring?

Miraclefish wrote:Don't forget that as the Battle Cannon is a blast weapon, if it scatters off the hull and the centre point isn't on the Hammerhead, it's only a S4 weapon and therefore very unlikely to do anything. Plus the 4+ cover save you're almost guaranteed to have equipped it with is going to help somewhat...

In the game. In fluff, the Leman Russ does carry anti tank shells. The Vanquisher is better at anti-tank, but the Russ doesn't just carry HE.

ph34r wrote:The Imperium does, yeah. But in deployment of IG vs Tau, of roughly equally matched forces, there will be as many Hammerheads as LRBTs, and the LRBTs will get hammered.

Well it depends. I think an armored regiment would likely have more Leman Russes than the equivalent Tau formation, but I digress...

At equal numbers, the Hammerheads will kill a bunch of the Lemans at long range, then the Lemans will close to battlecannon range, destroy a few Hammerheads before getting finished off.

Well, a leman russ vanquisher is technically a leman russ, the OP didnt specify the variant, just "leman russ", so...

I'm not arguing that the hammerheads are about to make it easy, but against 10 vanquishers? It'd be close.

The same logic can also make those Leman Russes Leman Russ Punishers and extremely inadequate for the task. Some Leman Russes will have an advantage, not a clear easy advantage that makes them automatically win but makes them slightly more suited for the task. The main problem for those would probably be range.

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Well, a leman russ vanquisher is technically a leman russ, the OP didnt specify the variant, just "leman russ", so...

I'm not arguing that the hammerheads are about to make it easy, but against 10 vanquishers? It'd be close.

In That case, this scenario could not happen, since there is only a single Leman Russ and he is currently lost in the warp. There was nothing specifying that the OP meant the tank, since Russ also wears armour made by the Imperium, which is therefore 'Imperial Armour'.