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How could the Hammerheads win?

10 angry Space Wolves Primarchs against some puny xeno tanks, how could the aliens not lose?

Hammerheads would probably win but not before the Russes take a few down. The Tau probably have superior communications equipment and will be able to coordinate attacks better compared to voxing each other. However, the terrain is hills and the russes could probably take cover there and lay down some indirect fire by bombarding the Hammers, as far as I know, the hammers need to have a straight line of sight and can only fire straight.

Result: Hammers would win with around half their numbers left.

People keep thinking of this in game terms, but let's remember that in fluff, the Leman Russ has AT shells which are probably similar to Vanquisher shells, but not as effective.

Taros campaign does say that Vanquishers are equal to Hammerheads as far as long range firepower goes, and the Tau quickly learned to start blowing up the Vanquishers first. So, 10 Vanquishers versus 10 Hammerheads? It's an even fight, at long range I might be willing to staill say Hammerheads just based on their manuverability, but it'd be a Pyrhhic victorya t best.

10 LRBTs against 10 Hammer heads will go to the Hammerheads, they may take some losses but it'd be a total Tau victory.

kronk wrote:


Well, considering there is no book that has put 10 hammerheads against 10 leman russes, you aren't going to get any quotes. Now, go find out who pissed in your cereal and take your frustrations out on them, dude.

I'm not frustrated,I'm just asking evidence for someone's claims,I don't know why is that so hard.

IvanTih wrote:

kronk wrote:


Well, considering there is no book that has put 10 hammerheads against 10 leman russes, you aren't going to get any quotes. Now, go find out who pissed in your cereal and take your frustrations out on them, dude.

I'm not frustrated,I'm just asking evidence for someone's claims,I don't know why is that so hard.

I would suggest that you read IA3 - lots of imperial tanks getting totally outclassed by Tau in there.

Redscare wrote:The Leman Russ tanks of course. Their tanks are armored with faith in the Emperor's benevolence, and their crews have Him on Earth watching over them.

What does the Tau have against that? Advanced technology and heretical xeno logic? Psh, no contest.

this is by far my favorite comment of all time, i hope the gods of the dice understand that the emperor protects

Hammerheads for the win.

10 Vanquishers with Pask and other Knight-Commanders. Not likely seeing as how the Vanq pattern is pretty rare these days.

Avatar 720 wrote:In That case, this scenario could not happen, since there is only a single Leman Russ and he is currently lost in the warp. There was nothing specifying that the OP meant the tank, since Russ also wears armour made by the Imperium, which is therefore 'Imperial Armour'.

This one one of the most inane posts that I've ever had the misfortune of reading. The day Leman Russ the primarch has AV14 armor, maneuvers with treads and is a relatively common site in the Imperial armored corps is when your post holds a shadow of a specter cast into the mist's worth of validity.

On to the thread itself: The setup in inherently flawed and in favor of the obviously more powerful Hammerheads, as you're pitting an anti-infantry vehicle against a dedicated tank destroyer. Make those MBTs into Vanquishers with the optional lascannon and the LRs could put up a good fight. Still, the victory would likely go to the Hammerheads because of the lack of favorable terrain.

Brother Coa wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:
Where have you got this statistic from; I don't see how it's possible to work out...

Because LR is made to be withstand a lot of punishment?
Every LR has reinforced front and rear armors. Tau Hammerhead have Medium armor at best ( can't be to heavy for the anti-gravitacinal )
Leman Russ have 60-62 tones, Hammerhead have 24 tones ( means more armor protection for LR ).
Leman Russ speed is 21-35 kph, Hammerhead can go 70 kph.

Leman Russ: FA 14, SA 12, RA 10, BS 3
HammerHead: FA 13, SA 12, RA 10, BS 3 (4)

And Vanquesher have range 96" with S 8, AP 3, Ordinance blast
Tau Hammerhead have a max. range of 72"...

So Vanquishers would own them, as they would own the LRBT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Who do you think would win between 10 Leman Russes coming into contact with 10 Hammerheads?

The setting is an open landscape a few miles wide. With some rolling hills for cover.

This is the same thing like comparing American M1 Sherman tanks ( worst tank in ww2) with German Tiger Tank.
Go figure....

Rules are that you can't use in-game stats as evidence, therefore it means nothing.

Thank Ivan for that rule.

As for the weight statistics, where did you get them? Also, the Tau use alien railgun technology that is designed to penetrate armour. It's like saying that an anti-tank round won't win against a tank because it has too much armour; it was designed for the purpose of breaking through all that armour.

The lack of weight and the speed of hammerheads also work in their favour, as it would require the hammerhead crews to be more efficient at firing whilst moving quickly, and their speed would grant them greater evasion. If you go even further and outfit them with disruption pods, then it will become terribly hard to target them, whereas a lumbering behemoth like the Leman Russ will be a far easier target to hit.

The Airman wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:In That case, this scenario could not happen, since there is only a single Leman Russ and he is currently lost in the warp. There was nothing specifying that the OP meant the tank, since Russ also wears armour made by the Imperium, which is therefore 'Imperial Armour'.

This one one of the most inane posts that I've ever had the misfortune of reading. The day Leman Russ the primarch has AV14 armor, maneuvers with treads and is a relatively common site in the Imperial armored corps is when your post holds a shadow of a specter cast into the mist's worth of validity.

If my post is inane, then yours is completely nonsensical. Where does "Imperial Armour" dictate that it refers to purely the armour on a tank? Where did the OP specify that this leman russ had treads or is a common sight in the Imperial Corps? "Imperial Armour" refers to just that, armour of the Imperium. The OP did not state that it meant tank armour, and since a lot of things have armour created by the Imperium, they can all be said to have Imperial Armour.

You seem intent on trying to portray me as a fool, yet you are the one who came here with your panties in a twist over a nonexistant issue.

In case my post was too inane for you, i'll summarise:

1) Where does the OP state that 'Imperial Armour' refers to tanks when it can just as easily be attributed to the armour worn by a member of the Imperium?
2) Where does the OP mention treads or being a common sight in the corps?

Avatar 720 wrote:Rules are that you can't use in-game stats as evidence, therefore it means nothing.

Thank Ivan for that rule.

Sorry Ivan, bad rule. As is always the case in an arguement like this you need to have a baseline otherwise it's complete nonstarter.

Lets take for example the Tigershark A10, as far as I am aware it only appears in one source and it one-shots a titan. There is nowhere else to compare it, so how do we compare it against anything else? We cant.

Same in this case. AFAIAA the only direct comparison for an equivalent tank battle between these two opponents is IA3, every other source has impinging factors from either troops, super heavies etc.

Going from that one comparative source, HH wins. Yes I know that IA3 is written from a Tau perspective, but all the other sources are written from a IG perspective, neither should be used. What do you have left? The game rules.

Cheers

Andrew

Brother Coa wrote:
Leman Russ have 60-62 tones, Hammerhead have 24 tones ( means more armor protection for LR ).

Quality, type, distribution and shaping of armour is all more important than the total weight.

If you're going to quote that stuff then quote the mm of steel equivalents as that takes quality and shape into account.

what if the leman russes were all vanquishers?

LordCreed wrote:what if the leman russes were all vanquishers?

A tactical genius should probably be able to read. The thread.

Having experience from having almost no variety in opposing armies I have to vote for the Leman Russes.

Admittedly these can be more equipped for tank hunting than a Hammerhead. Why? Because having two high strangth value weapons matters quite a bit compared to one "quality" shot as odds tend to be more in favor of the many, rather than the few.

Also the LR has 14, count it, 14 front armour followed by 13 shielding its sides. While the Hammerhead is 1 less in armour on both facings, meaning that the LR's high strength weapons are equally as likely to do damage to the HH as its Railguns to the LR.

What the hammerhead has in its favor is the rightfully glorified Disruption Pod. This device being equipped to make up for its not-so-but-still-sorta-reliable armor by providing a +4 cover save bubble. It's only problematic side is that it can be comparable to the "flip a coin" 50-50 percent chance of doing what you want or not. So if both the LR weapons do damage, the Math involved should lead to one breaking though the pod, while the other does nothing. However should ANY, and I do mean ANY, shots make though the bubble, there is a one out of six chance* that shot WON'T make your vehicle shoot the next turn; which means for playing Tau, "You're already on the verge of losing!"

I've seen that because the Hammerhead is "Herp-a-Derp i gotzzz a ralegun lololololz", leads people to think that automatically makes it better. No it does not! If anything should be noted about the Hammerhead's railgun, it should be placed at "better hunting infantry" as one is better off dropping a Large blast w/BS 4 on a horde of lightly armored infantry, rather than using its one shot to off an enemy vehicle. When it comes to "Obliterating Tanks w/Railguns and You", the Broadside squad is taken instead of the Hammerhead. Why? Because shooting one rerollably shot at BS 3 is better than shooting one shot with BS 4. Also Broadsides have the advantage of having more Railguns on the field, thus giving the advantage of punking bad rolls by having strength in numbers of shots.

Some also say that the Hammerhead's mobility gives it an advantage. Well when fighting LR's... No, it doesn't. That is a silly generalization. To examine this more, let's ask ourselves, "does a vehicle need to move fast to bring the enemy vehicle to utter destruction?" Well we can move 12 inches to get a shot at the "underbelly" that is the side armor of the LR. Or if the HH had survived long enough, we can simply use the skimmer attribute to pass through** the tank to get a shot at its rear. But both situations are not very likely, as 10 LR's most certainly mean that some are Squaded up and are Tank-lining to avoid shots in those particular areas. This mobile attribute should also be pointed towards the HH's excellent capability as an infantry hunter as it can use said mobility to move far away from units that mean it harm in combat. If failing to avoid said combat, it most certainly has decent protection by moving quickly and forcing the enemy to roll sixes to attempt damage.

*= One out of four on a glance
**= Technically fly over, but this is from a overhead of table perspective ala-Vassal board-view

ChiliPowderKeg wrote:*snip*

You cannot use the tabletop game as evidence.

Hammerheads kick all sorts of arse. The leman Russ is more an anti-infranty tank.

As the OP lays it out, there's no way the LRs could win. That's pretty much the perfect setup for the punch and range of the railgun to dominate.

IvanTih wrote:
That's just one source.

One source is all it takes, haven't you been around the internet arguments over my armies fluff is so bad ass threads before? People say basic lasguns can punch holes through marines because one book wrote some crap about it. Happens on the table? Nope (well, kinda, fail enough saves)

It still wouldn't be close, the hammerheads would technically dodge 50% of the shots, while moving faster and still firing their railguns at the russes.

Do you have a source that states something about lemon russes destroying hammerheads? I say not, unless you write it yourself.

Avatar 720 wrote:If my post is inane, then yours is completely nonsensical. Where does "Imperial Armour" dictate that it refers to purely the armour on a tank? Where did the OP specify that this leman russ had treads or is a common sight in the Imperial Corps? "Imperial Armour" refers to just that, armour of the Imperium. The OP did not state that it meant tank armour, and since a lot of things have armour created by the Imperium, they can all be said to have Imperial Armour.

You seem intent on trying to portray me as a fool, yet you are the one who came here with your panties in a twist over a nonexistant issue.

In case my post was too inane for you, i'll summarise:

1) Where does the OP state that 'Imperial Armour' refers to tanks when it can just as easily be attributed to the armour worn by a member of the Imperium?
2) Where does the OP mention treads or being a common sight in the corps?

Are you seriously going to suggest that the OP meant that there are ten copies of the same primarch squaring off against ten Tau hammerheads? That is inane. Not to mention that the Leman Russ tank is a common sight in Imperial armored units, hence 'Main Battle Tank'. Variants such as the Vanquisher are less seen, but would work in the LR's favor as this scenario is severely lopsided to begin with.

I'd also like to see where the thread parameters are specified as to be limited to none-gameplay sources. Anything, apart from unofficial fan fiction/fluff, is fair game.

Crappy thread, has nothing on my 40 pager that was unjustfuly locked.

Movac wrote:unjustfuly locked.

LOL.

It was a bad thread and you should feel bad.

And the word you're looking for is, 'unjustly.'

The Airman wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:If my post is inane, then yours is completely nonsensical. Where does "Imperial Armour" dictate that it refers to purely the armour on a tank? Where did the OP specify that this leman russ had treads or is a common sight in the Imperial Corps? "Imperial Armour" refers to just that, armour of the Imperium. The OP did not state that it meant tank armour, and since a lot of things have armour created by the Imperium, they can all be said to have Imperial Armour.

You seem intent on trying to portray me as a fool, yet you are the one who came here with your panties in a twist over a nonexistant issue.

In case my post was too inane for you, i'll summarise:

1) Where does the OP state that 'Imperial Armour' refers to tanks when it can just as easily be attributed to the armour worn by a member of the Imperium?
2) Where does the OP mention treads or being a common sight in the corps?

Are you seriously going to suggest that the OP meant that there are ten copies of the same primarch squaring off against ten Tau hammerheads? That is inane. Not to mention that the Leman Russ tank is a common sight in Imperial armored units, hence 'Main Battle Tank'. Variants such as the Vanquisher are less seen, but would work in the LR's favor as this scenario is severely lopsided to begin with.

I'd also like to see where the thread parameters are specified as to be limited to none-gameplay sources. Anything, apart from unofficial fan fiction/fluff, is fair game.

1) Yes, I am, I don't see why I can't. It might be absurd, but it's perfectly within the vague details of the OP.
2) See Ivan's posts scattered around the thread when people even hinted at the Hammerhead being superior. I'm only basing it off precedent set by him. If Hammerheads can't use in-game stats then neither can anyone else.

IvanTih wrote:

The same novel where Tau Hammerheads get stomped by the Imperial armor(especially by a Baneblade).

I would say the Leman Russ is the Imperial equivalent to the Hammerhead, so the source he stated does have proof that the Hammerhead can defeat Leman Russes. If it's the Baneblade that did most of the damage to the Hammerheads it is irrelevant because those are Imperial Super Tanks and don't enter the question 'who will win in 10 Leman Russes vs 10 Hammerheads?'

This is a pointless discussion without defining the terms.

In the game rules the Hammerheads would easily win because they have a longer ranged weapon which can easily pierce the Leman Russ armour, the manoeuvrability to keep their distance, and a 4+ cover save in case the Russes ever got within range.