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This has pretty much been on my mind since the first time i opened a 3rd edition starter box. You may or may not agree with me, but just give me the floor for a couple minutes and let me get this off my chest. Why aren't ALL of the First founding properly represented in a codex? I mean, sure, you have the four favoured sons of GW, the Black Templar, Blood Angles, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves, but what about the Salamanders, White Scars, the Crimson Fists! Even the Ultra Marines, the so-called heirs to the Imperium, have to share a codex with the other forgotten Chapters. What? are they not cool enough?
Realistically, one can say that those Chapters left behind aren't played that much, they aren't main-stream. SO! If I want to play a White Scars army, i shouldnt have to pretned that they are WS simply because my Captain happens to be on a bike. Oh yes, and thanks for that ONE special character to help make the illusion complete. I also realize that all the Chapters in the Space Marine Codex are the ones that adhered to the ideas of Guilliman, but that can't be an excuse for doing such a half assed job. Way back in the day, i had a White Scars army that was built using a White Dwarf supplement. It was great, my army had style and its own little philosophy. When the SM codex came out, it got rid of all the things that made my army special and instead made them as generic as the Marines they shared a codex with. This doesnt have to be difficult, just give me more to work. I mean c'mon, one special character? That seems to upset me more than anything.
The point is; I shouldnt have only four options if I want to play an army that has depth. Just because a Chapter does not have a blood,black,dark refrence in their name, shouldn't exclude them from getting thier due. There are a lot of great Chapters out there but they aren't being properly supported by GW, and i think thats wrong.

The problem is that they just don't have much to differentiate them from the main.

To use White Scars as an example:
They, as a Chapter have no real 'distinguishing' tactics or methods that can be represented on the tabletop.

They're like the Raven Guard in that aspect, most of what they're famed for is better represented in deployment methods or in 'bonuses' done during campaign games.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars( 'the four favored sons', as you put it) each have something that makes them unique. Whether it's the BA's Death Company, Dark Angels fielding all Terminator forces of the Deathwing or the Ravenwing and its all-bike/Speeder force, Space Wolves' organizational methods, or Black Templars having their Initiates fighting in the midst of their 'tactical squads'--there's something unique in there.

The Ultramarines, by the by, don't "share a Codex" with the other 'forgotten Chapters'.
The Ultramarines are the entire framework that the other Chapters are built upon.

The Chapters that they share a book with, they might have some 'unique' formation that is occasionally fielded--but the majority of the time they'll be a very Codex adherent force organized much like the tables in the book show.

Because they should all be just one codex to start with anyways. You want Blood Angels, just pour some glue on normal marines and roll them in glitter; you want space wolves, pour glue on them and throw them at the closest furry animal. No need for their own codices or models.

Ah now. The current Marine codex is probably one of the best ever for representing lots of different chapters.
Iron hands? Take a master of the forge, dreads, techmarines!
Whitescars? Like you say, Bike Captain and away you go! You've got Khan there as well.
Ravengaurd? Shrike is there to help you along, but infiltration based armies aren't impossible.
Salamanders? Vulkan, and plenty of flame and melta themed stuff floating around.
Crimson Fists? Kantor, the various veterans, what more do you want, these guys are codex!
Imperial Fists?Lysander, and again, you're codex, what do you want?
Pretty much whatever you want is catered for. You've got an assload of special characters, the best selection of plastic kids, great choice in generic character models.
In essence, quit your whining, you're already being treated better than any other faction.

The whole point is that most of the Chapters all use the same table of organization and equipment with largely similar materiel philosophy, unlike the divergent chapters.

I mean, the Codex Astartes is basically 'how to marine' and the vanilla codex implements that.

There's already enough different Chapters with their own codex, there's tons of different Waaaaghs, plenty of varying Kabals, and Hive Fleets with diverging tactics. None of them get their own codex. More xenos should get codices before more marines do.

I'm aware of the irony of a Grey Knight player saying this.

REDoctoberXIII wrote:This has pretty much been on my mind since the first time i opened a 3rd edition starter box. You may or may not agree with me, but just give me the floor for a couple minutes and let me get this off my chest. Why aren't ALL of the First founding properly represented in a codex? I mean, sure, you have the four favoured sons of GW, the Black Templar, Blood Angles, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves, but what about the Salamanders, White Scars, the Crimson Fists! Even the Ultra Marines, the so-called heirs to the Imperium, have to share a codex with the other forgotten Chapters. What? are they not cool enough?

What do White Scars have that *demands* a codex of its own in order to play like a White Scars army?

Realistically, one can say that those Chapters left behind aren't played that much, they aren't main-stream. SO! If I want to play a White Scars army, i shouldnt have to pretned that they are WS simply because my Captain happens to be on a bike.

Uh...yeah. That's how EVERY. OTHER. FACTION. in this game does it. Just because you don't get a full plethora of special rules and half a dozen characters doesn't mean you can't play a very fluffy and effective army.

Oh yes, and thanks for that ONE special character to help make the illusion complete. I also realize that all the Chapters in the Space Marine Codex are the ones that adhered to the ideas of Guilliman, but that can't be an excuse for doing such a half assed job. Way back in the day, i had a White Scars army that was built using a White Dwarf supplement. It was great, my army had style and its own little philosophy. When the SM codex came out, it got rid of all the things that made my army special and instead made them as generic as the Marines they shared a codex with. This doesnt have to be difficult, just give me more to work. I mean c'mon, one special character? That seems to upset me more than anything.
The point is; I shouldnt have only four options if I want to play an army that has depth. Just because a Chapter does not have a blood,black,dark refrence in their name, shouldn't exclude them from getting thier due. There are a lot of great Chapters out there but they aren't being properly supported by GW, and i think thats wrong.

By this same toke then, why shouldn't every imagineable faction have its own book? Why don't we have distinct codecies for Mordians, Tanith, Tallarn, Krieg, Catachans, Cadians, Armored Companies, Elysians, Valhallans, Steel Legion, etc ad nauseum. Why not distinct codecies for Ulthwe, Biel-Tan, Iyanden, etc? Why no Farsight Enclace codex? Who no Codex: Goffs or Codex: Speed Freaks?

Seriously, most factions are created just to give people a place from which to jump on their own with a theme and give people ideas and avenues from which to make a force with a book, not meant to be different enough to require their own book. Yes some marine chapters have their own book, but really shouldn't and don't truly need them, we really only should have 3 marine books, Loyalist SM's, Chaos SM's, and GK's as a part of the Ordo Malleus. We already have multiple variant SM books that are 80%+ copy-paste jobs, and that's all a White Scars codex would be. If that's the case, it doesn't need its own list, at best a WD Index Astartes style thing would do, but probably doesn't even need that.

If you really want to have a bunch of individual stuff, write up your own thing and see if your opponents will let you use it. Then see if it's really all that different and if it really was necessary to field your force.

Vak, stop trying to take away my Dark Angels book!

Not trying to here...yet

Codex: Death Guard
Codex: Thousand Sons
Codex: Emperors Childeren
Codex: World Eaters
Codex: Night Lords
Codex: Iron Warriors
Codex: Kroot

Your Space Marines are the lucky ones who get there own spin off Codicies, whereas as us Chaos Marines have to make do with 1 Codex to try to make all 4 Major "Favoured Sons" and the 2 Other little add ons

And Codex: Kroot used to exist iirc but no longer does...
Bad Times...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Because they should all be just one codex to start with anyways. You want Blood Angels, just pour some glue on normal marines and roll them in glitter; you want space wolves, pour glue on them and throw them at the closest furry animal. No need for their own codices or models.

SOn, I like what you've done here.

Bloodhorror wrote:Codex: Death Guard
Codex: Thousand Sons
Codex: Emperors Childeren
Codex: World Eaters
Codex: Night Lords
Codex: Iron Warriors
Codex: Kroot

Your Space Marines are the lucky ones who get there own spin off Codicies, whereas as us Chaos Marines have to make do with 1 Codex to try to make all 4 Major "Favoured Sons" and the 2 Other little add ons

Our own "spin off codices" have been in production for a long time. Or does "Angels of Death", the DA/BA combined codex not ring a bell?

Yes. It sucks that Chaos Marines have to "make do" with 1 Codex that has been terrible at representing everything.

Which is why I've said time and time again that a "Cult/Legion" book is needed, along with an actual "Renegades" book which is more of what this current one is.

And Codex: Kroot used to exist iirc but no longer does...
Bad Times...

Codex: Kroot has never existed. It was a Chapter Approved list, that was invalidated.

Nope, this is cool. I like this.

Quick, get one of those online petitions that work so well to effect this change. Here are a few dexes I can think of off the top of my head we need.

Salamanders, Raven Guard, White Scars, Blood Ravens, Relictors*, Mentors, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, Cadians, Catachans, Vostroyans, DKoK, Tallarns, Alaitoc, (insert names of each of the other craftwords). Chaos Daemons should probably be split up and developed, because, well, seriously, two units for each to describe an entire legion of followers for a GOD? Unlikely.

So then, GW, who can get out maybe 2-3 codices a year with the level of quality that they actually manage to hit (dubious), you either get a codex that's made that will probably never be actually updated, ever, or you get an approximation, sometimes a bad one at that, that is just the best you can hope for. You want an army that you got the reacharound from GW for playing? Play Ultramarines or Blood Angels. Otherwise, you picked up the codex long enough to flip through it to pick the color marines you wanted. You knew what you were getting into.

Also, AdMech needs a codex, Arbites need a codex, Squats and Genestealer Cult need to come back, and I want a dedicated Inquisition codex. Not going to use it, but I want one.

* You think you're mad? At least you get a character. I play Relictors, which could actually be a somewhat unique and interesting blend of SM and CSM, but we barely get a nod in a codex that basically penalizes you for NOT taking special characters. Were it not for Null Zone, I'd basically just be playing Blood Angels on 'Hard Mode'.

I'm game for Codex: Cadians.

I volunteer a Kasrkin Commander who lets you take Kasrkin heavy weapon teams, Kasrkin snipers, Kasrkin drop troops, and Kasrkin Kasrkin!

... space marines complaining abtou lack of codexes >_<

my brain hurts now

srsly as an ork despite all the different clans we get one codex. you have special characters for your gen codex and more codexes on top of that where there is true fluff differences in how the army should fight. if anythign I'd love there to be only 2 space marines codexes that way us xenos can actually get quick turn arounds new codex.

imo it is a circular problem. GW pushes Sm and releases lots of SM so people buy more SM... since people buy so many SM GW puts more effort into them than anything else

Kanluwen wrote:I'm game for Codex: Cadians.

I volunteer a Kasrkin Commander who lets you take Kasrkin heavy weapon teams, Kasrkin snipers, Kasrkin drop troops, and Kasrkin Kasrkin!

CADIAN DOOM KASRKIN!

Kanluwen wrote:
Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars( 'the four favored sons', as you put it) each have something that makes them unique. Whether it's the BA's Death Company, Dark Angels fielding all Terminator forces of the Deathwing or the Ravenwing and its all-bike/Speeder force, Space Wolves' organizational methods, or Black Templars having their Initiates fighting in the midst of their 'tactical squads'--there's something unique in there.

They are unique or 'have something' because GW made them that way. It would be different if they'd have put the same effort into all the other chapters/races/kabals/factions, but they didnt. They chose a special, select few and concentrated their efforts on them. Everything else is just filler.

REDoctoberXIII wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars( 'the four favored sons', as you put it) each have something that makes them unique. Whether it's the BA's Death Company, Dark Angels fielding all Terminator forces of the Deathwing or the Ravenwing and its all-bike/Speeder force, Space Wolves' organizational methods, or Black Templars having their Initiates fighting in the midst of their 'tactical squads'--there's something unique in there.

They are unique or 'have something' because GW made them that way. It would be different if they'd have put the same effort into all the other chapters/races/kabals/factions, but they didnt. They chose a special, select few and concentrated their efforts on them. Everything else is just filler.

They get seperate codici because of differing organisational methods.
SW and BT use the Codex as toiler paper, DA and BA could be folded into 1 codex to suit the both of them.
White Scars, Salamanders and all of the other first founding chapters follow the codex with few or no divergences.
The others and the BT do not, which is what their codeci represent.

There used to be more indepth rules in Chapter Approved for all (or nearly all) founding legions.

Of course, if you compare the flexibility of the current marine book in terms of FOC and unit selection with any other book from 3rd edition to now (except for possibly 3.5 chaos), there is no greater flexiblity within a codex.

Add in the new "counts as" philosophy that GW has, and you can build a great representation of any legion you'd like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the current book reflects the understanding that "codex" chapters all follow the Codex Astartes, at least in theory, but put emphasis on different areas.

So the White Scars simply use bikes more (which the codex allows). Iron Hands use more tech (which the codex allows).

So yes, they could make Codex: Imperial Fists, and make all kinds of new and unqiue units. And then there are seven different Loyalist marine books, and do we really need that?

purplefood wrote:They get seperate codici because of differing organisational methods.
SW and BT use the Codex as toiler paper, DA and BA could be folded into 1 codex to suit the both of them.

And yet they're all identical but for fluff, which could probably fit in half the pages the marine codex devotes to smurf iconography, of all things, alone, and a few upgrades akin to what vanilla special characters do, which could fit in the rest of the pointless iconography pages.

Da Boss wrote:Ah now. The current Marine codex is probably one of the best ever for representing lots of different chapters.

Aside from the last one where you could do it both without special characters and via traits (as flawed as the trait system was).
Or the one before that where most Chapters had their own Index Astartes article with list modificiations.

But yes, you're right, aside from all the previous ones, this edition is the best to representing the other Chapters.

Da Boss wrote:Pretty much whatever you want is catered for.

As long as you're ok with only being able to play Salamanders if you bring the same special character to every battle.

Or White Scars...

Or Imperial Fists...

Or Raven Guard...

Or Deathwing...

And so on.

Salamanders *might* get their own codexes, as they had a list in the long-since-discontinued Armageddon book (I think, can't exactly recall). Black Templars got *promoted* to full on Codex status from that, so there's no reason why they wouldnt do it for Salamanders.

Now whether or not I'm in favour of this is another matter entirely. Personally I'd wish they just reduce it to 3 as Kan said a few posts above (or even 2 and have Chaos marines as a possible build, but part of Chaos Legions with Daemons and Renegades being other possible builds). Just throwing my two cents into the pool.